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MichaelStEdmund
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| First Name: | Michael | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Convert from pentacostal/charismatic/holiness background |
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 04:03 am |
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This is a topic I haven't heard anyone ask about before, though I'm sure it's found its way into these forums in some way.
In the Our Father we pray to be forgiven as we forgive others.
In the Rosary, we pray "forgive us our sins, save us from the fires of Hell."
If forgiveness only comes through the confessional (does it? I'm fuzzy on this point), why do we pray to be forgiven in our private devotions? Is it simply an attitude adjustment without being "real," or is true forgiveness granted in some form through these prayers?
I don't doubt the power of the sacrament, but I need to know how to interpret these things correctly.
Thanks.
= M
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"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
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DrDave
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 04:52 am |
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Forgiveness of "Mortal" sins is restricted to the confessional (or baptism, or a perfect 'Act of Contrition' ) Venial sins, however, can be and are forgiven in a variety of ways including the prayers you mentioned, confession, the penitential rite at mass (I confess .... Lord have mercy) and others.
Regards Doc
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 05:36 am |
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This is a common difficulty among those coming from a Protestant background, Michael.
DrDave has given you the short answer: the distinction of venial sin from mortal sin. To state it again here: Most of the sins committed by believing and practicing Christians are venial in nature because they are already walking with God. All sins, both mortal and venial, can be forgiven through the sacrament of penance. Lesser — venial — sins can also be forgiven through other means, including prayer (especially liturgical penitence, as Dave has mentioned), good deeds (especially the corporal and spiritual works of mercy), and reception of the Eucharist. If I have a chance, I attack the evil within me by availing myself of both avenues of grace.
But the question of forgiveness goes deeper than this. I was writing to someone else on this same subject the other day, and the burden of my message was this:
Repentance is the foundation of all forgiveness, regardless of the mode of expression. In other words, whether I receive the sacrament of penance, the Eucharist, or make some other act, the act must be done as an outward sign of inner repentance. Your question is whether inner repentance alone is sufficient for forgiveness of venial sins. I believe so, but if it is unaccompanied by outward acts, it may be stillborn, as we read in James 2:14-26. Therefore, I always recommend an accompanying outward act if possible.
But let us be clear. The repentant thief on the cross, we say, “did nothing” and was forgiven many things. Yet he did what he could: he spoke to Jesus about his condition, indicating his disposition, and he suffered his fate in atonement. These were his “outer sign.” So we must be careful when we say he “did nothing.” The moral is that we must do what we can, as we can, just as with more serious sin.
As you can see, none of this is subjective (“Jesus did it all so I don’t have to” or what you call “attitude adjustment without being ‘real’”); Catholics believe that any forgiveness must be objectively real or it is a false forgiveness, an intellectual self-deception. We are not forgiven because we prayed or went to confession, but because we have repented. Yet repentance itself requires action or it has no life or power to heal the death of the soul. Both/and, not either/or, with the remedy based on the kind and severity of the offense.
David
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MichaelStEdmund
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Posted: Wed Jan 30th, 2008 12:10 pm |
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Thanks DrDave and David.
From what I had known previously, venial sins could be dealt with during Mass (the Confiteor, the Kyrie) and also through going to confession. It's one reason why, if I'm late for Mass, I abstain from the Eucharist.
Mortal sins, on the other hand, could only be dealt with by by going to confession.
Both require true repentance, naturally.
I'm gathering here, then, that venial sins can also be dealt with via prayers like the Our Father and the rosary? I wasn't familiar with that idea.
David, I'm not sure I expressed myself well enough with the phrase "attitude adjustment without being real." What I meant was that we adjust our attitude so that we agree with God that we are, in fact, guilty. In that line of reasoning, when I pray the Our Father, I'm simply agreeing with God that I have failed, but up to this point I haven't expected there to be anything sacramental ("real" or actual) about it because it didn't involve our priest.
Thanks,
= M
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"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Jan 30th, 2008 01:00 pm |
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David, I'm not sure I expressed myself well enough with the phrase "attitude adjustment without being real." What I meant was that we adjust our attitude so that we agree with God that we are, in fact, guilty. In that line of reasoning, when I pray the Our Father, I'm simply agreeing with God that I have failed, but up to this point I haven't expected there to be anything sacramental ("real" or actual) about it because it didn't involve our priest.
You are right, I understood it in an entirely different sense.
But the signs I spoke of above are in fact “real,” meaning that they are genuine acts of repentance according to one’s intention. And here is another very important one: any indulgenced act (see the Manual of Indulgences) is doubly efficacious, because not only does it bring about forgiveness, but it helps to atone for the offense as well.
If I'm late for Mass, I abstain from the Eucharist.
For Masses of obligation, it depends on how late you are and whether there is a good reason for your lateness whether you can receive the Eucharist. Even without excuse, if you arrive before the Gospel, the sin is venial, and you can receive.
For other Masses, there is no sin involved unless your tardiness is wilful.
David
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MichaelStEdmund
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 04:37 pm |
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| Thanks!
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brian
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Posted: Fri Feb 1st, 2008 07:03 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote:
David, I'm not sure I expressed myself well enough with the phrase "attitude adjustment without being real." What I meant was that we adjust our attitude so that we agree with God that we are, in fact, guilty. In that line of reasoning, when I pray the Our Father, I'm simply agreeing with God that I have failed, but up to this point I haven't expected there to be anything sacramental ("real" or actual) about it because it didn't involve our priest.
You are right, I understood it in an entirely different sense.
But the signs I spoke of above are in fact “real,” meaning that they are genuine acts of repentance according to one’s intention. And here is another very important one: any indulgenced act (see the Manual of Indulgences) is doubly efficacious, because not only does it bring about forgiveness, but it helps to atone for the offense as well.
If I'm late for Mass, I abstain from the Eucharist.
For Masses of obligation, it depends on how late you are and whether there is a good reason for your lateness whether you can receive the Eucharist. Even without excuse, if you arrive before the Gospel, the sin is venial, and you can receive.
For other Masses, there is no sin involved unless your tardiness is wilful.
David
Why does it depend on how late you are AND your reason, if you also say that even without good excuse the sin is venial and you can receive. Seems to say to me that it only depends on how late you are and not on the reason (unless the reason is a serious lack of love and respect for God).
And if it does depend on the reason how could one know if their reason was good enough. I am usually on time but any number of things could delay me. Lethargy. Hitting snooze one too many times, taking too long to find the right clothes, stopping to check an e-mail or phone call. underestimating time needed to arrive. I would think the only reason to worry about would be intentionally and lazily delaying your arrival. Sort of planning to arrive later out of a lack of desire to be there the whole time.
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MichaelStEdmund
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Posted: Fri Feb 1st, 2008 09:20 pm |
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brian wrote: David W. Emery wrote:
David, I'm not sure I expressed myself well enough with the phrase "attitude adjustment without being real." What I meant was that we adjust our attitude so that we agree with God that we are, in fact, guilty. In that line of reasoning, when I pray the Our Father, I'm simply agreeing with God that I have failed, but up to this point I haven't expected there to be anything sacramental ("real" or actual) about it because it didn't involve our priest.
You are right, I understood it in an entirely different sense.
But the signs I spoke of above are in fact “real,” meaning that they are genuine acts of repentance according to one’s intention. And here is another very important one: any indulgenced act (see the Manual of Indulgences) is doubly efficacious, because not only does it bring about forgiveness, but it helps to atone for the offense as well.
If I'm late for Mass, I abstain from the Eucharist.
For Masses of obligation, it depends on how late you are and whether there is a good reason for your lateness whether you can receive the Eucharist. Even without excuse, if you arrive before the Gospel, the sin is venial, and you can receive.
For other Masses, there is no sin involved unless your tardiness is wilful.
David
Why does it depend on how late you are AND your reason, if you also say that even without good excuse the sin is venial and you can receive. Seems to say to me that it only depends on how late you are and not on the reason (unless the reason is a serious lack of love and respect for God).
And if it does depend on the reason how could one know if their reason was good enough. I am usually on time but any number of things could delay me. Lethargy. Hitting snooze one too many times, taking too long to find the right clothes, stopping to check an e-mail or phone call. underestimating time needed to arrive. I would think the only reason to worry about would be intentionally and lazily delaying your arrival. Sort of planning to arrive later out of a lack of desire to be there the whole time.
The reason I normally abstain if I arrive after the Kyrie isn't because I think I've done something wrong in arriving late. I'm a bit more forgiving of myself than that. It's simply that I attract bits of venial dirt throughout the week, and I crave the cleansing that the Kyrie conveys to me, in a sacramental kind of way. It's "official" to me in a way that nothing short of the confessional truly is. If I approach the Eucharist running through the door and wiping my nose, I just know that I haven't had time to prepare. I need to Lord's mercy, and I need to give Him His due respect. I may have an out-of-kilter perspective on the subject, but I really do mean well.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Feb 2nd, 2008 03:38 am |
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brian wrote:I would think the only reason to worry about would be intentionally and lazily delaying your arrival. Sort of planning to arrive later out of a lack of desire to be there the whole time.
“For other Masses, there is no sin involved unless your tardiness is willful.” Isn’t that the same thing? I think you’re understanding it well.
Regarding Masses of obligation, I gave the traditional interpretation of the moral law. Anyone who had gone to confession before Vatican II probably remembers it. I do.
MichaelStEdmund wrote:I may have an out-of-kilter perspective on the subject, but I really do mean well.
I see nothing intrinsically wrong with your approach. What I related has to do with whether there is sin in “missing Mass,” and if so, if it is venial or mortal.
Spiritually speaking, to abstain only on account of venial sins could be interpreted by a confessor or spiritual guide as scrupulosity, for the Eucharist itself forgives venial sins, if one has the intention. My personal procedure is to use both the confessional and other means to receive forgiveness for venial sins. I would never skip the Eucharist so long as I have no unconfessed mortal sin. But I would never tell anyone that he has to receive.
David
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MichaelStEdmund
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Posted: Sat Feb 2nd, 2008 05:31 am |
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David W. Emery wrote:Spiritually speaking, to abstain only on account of venial sins could be interpreted by a confessor or spiritual guide as scrupulosity, for the Eucharist itself forgives venial sins, if one has the intention.
Yes, the issue of scrupulosity has occurred to me, no doubt about it. It's a bit of a tightrope walk for me, between caring too much and caring too little.
Thank you again, David.
= M
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Feb 2nd, 2008 11:35 am |
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MichaelStEdmund wrote:It's a bit of a tightrope walk for me, between caring too much and caring too little.
I like your description. It shows me that you are not being scrupulous, but penitential. If, in addition, you still frequent the sacraments, you have built your spiritual life on a sound foundation.
The Lord lives in the hearts of those who walk in his way.
David
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