 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
brian
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 720 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Feb 20th, 2007 02:40 pm |
|
| Regarding Jesus saying that we can not be forgiven unless we forgive others...well, does he really mean it? Like if you receive the sacrament of reconciliation, but you have not forgiven someone who killed your brother or something terrible, are you not really forgiven? What exactly is forgiveness. I am thinknig it is not an emotion, but just something we tell God we want to do, even if we do not "feel" like we have forgiven? How do you know you have forgiven, and how do you treat the person afterward. You can not keep holding it against them, but I would think trust may be permanently violated.
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1714 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 21st, 2007 12:50 am |
|
Humanly speaking, Brian, it could be said that forgiveness is continuing to love the sinner while abhorring the sin. From the divine perspective, I think the Catechism sums it up well:
CCC 734 Because we are dead or at least wounded through sin, the first effect of the gift of love is the forgiveness of our sins. The communion of the Holy Spirit in the Church restores to the baptized the divine likeness lost through sin.
Another passage that gives us a practical example of the meaning of forgiveness is this:
CCC 1443 During his public life Jesus not only forgave sins, but also made plain the effect of this forgiveness: he reintegrated forgiven sinners into the community of the People of God from which sin had alienated or even excluded them. A remarkable sign of this is the fact that Jesus receives sinners at his table, a gesture that expresses in an astonishing way both God’s forgiveness and the return to the bosom of the People of God.
So the outward manifestation of forgiveness is reintegration into the community. It can be a community of two (you and the person forgiven), but it always involves community and acceptance.
Regarding your question about forgiving others in order to be forgiven (part of the Our Father): I am reminded of St. John’s statement, “If any one says, ‘I love God,’ and hates his brother, he is a liar; for he who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen” (1 John 4:20). So you see that it is really true: the absolution you receive in the confessional is to no avail if you continue to hold a grudge against your brother, because your repentance is neither complete nor true. He who does not repent cannot be forgiven.
This is a good meditation for Lent, don’t you think?
David
|
|
|
brian
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 720 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 21st, 2007 01:14 am |
|
| Yes. But what would you say to someone who does not know how to forgive or what it means, if say their son or daughter was killed by someone? What on our part must we do to know we forgive? pray for the person? Just formerly declare the intention to forgive in prayer? And can this be done even if in their passions they are still angry?
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1714 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Feb 21st, 2007 02:07 am |
|
Hmm. You have a lot of “yes, buts” lately. So now you are asking not for yourself but for somebody who doesn’t know how to forgive? (I’m quite sure you know how and could teach the person yourself, but that doesn’t answer your question.)
Let’s take a look at what I wrote previously. Love the sinner while hating the sin. Reintegrate the offender into your society. This is what Christ did for you, and you must “love one another as I have loved you.”
Can this be done even if in their passions they are still angry?
I see people do it all the time, so it must be possible. Are you having difficulty working past your emotions? Then love your brother through them instead of trying to avoid them. Why should you be a slave to the “elements of the world”?
David
|
|
|
Truthseeker
Member
| Joined: | Wed Oct 4th, 2006 |
| Location: | Costa Mesa, California USA |
| Posts: | 340 |
| First Name: | Laura | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | lapsed and returned CATHOLIC!!!!!! |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Mar 2nd, 2007 02:52 am |
|
Hi Brian-
I have spent the last year and a half trying to forgive, thinking I have forgiven, and wondering if I really had. You know my pregnancy/miscarriage situation. Holy cow - that horrible tragedy seems to have been a huge learning experiance for me and is just beginning to bear fruit.
I've wondered what forgiveness really means. Is it when you don't want someone to go to hell, even though you hate them with every fiber of your being? Is it only when you love them and are li-ti-da happy with them? Is it when you barely manage to do the right thing by them, when you want to do wrong? Is it when you understand their human weakness in the face of how their weakness hurts you?
I have felt/been/done all these about the same person for the same thing that I have been struggling with for so long. Suprisingly, at this moment, I am at peace - ever since my prayer breakfast last weekend, when the priest telling his conversion story told how he cried out to God, "It's not fair that I have to forgive"! And that is the crux of the problem. Knowing you should but knowing it's unfair. And so, even though you try, yu hold on just a little bit. I think God must judge you on your effort, because He knows we are weak.
Truly, that cry to the Lord was a release for me. And so foriveness for me, is the Lord removing the anger and hate out of my heart. It isn't something I've done, at all.
Lenten Peace,
Laura
____________________
Lord, please make my will your Will!
|
|
|
Current time is 08:11 am | |
|
|
|
|
|
