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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 877 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Wed Nov 29th, 2006 06:09 pm |
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Hello Again Everyone,
Last night I was watching "Threshold of Faith" with Father Pacwah. (sp?) He was reading from the Catholic Catechism regarding marriage. I was surprised to learn that the Catholic Church does not discourage mixed marriages - those between Catholics and Protestants, Catholics and Jews, Catholics and Muslims or Catholics and non-believers, etc. I understand that we should respect people of different faiths or belief systems, and that this does not constitute agreeing with their beliefs or putting a stamp of appoval on behavior that might be against Catholic teaching. But marriage is quite a different matter altogether. It is quite possible that the Catholic might be led away to a different faith somewhere down the line, due to pressure from the other spouse. (or in the case of marrying an atheist/agnostic, abandon their Catholic faith entirely)
With that said, I was surprised to learn that the Catholic Church marries people of two different faiths. In fact, Father Pacwah said that he had marrried couples who were of two different faiths. A man in the audience said that his father and mother were of two different faiths (father was Protestant, mother Catholic). However, when they married in the 1920's, the Catholic Church conducted the ceremonies of mixed marriages in the rectory, not the sanctuary, because it was not permitted. Then that changed and mixed couples were permitted to marry in the back of the sanctuary. Currently, mixed couples are allowed to be married in the front of the sanctuary with a full Mass. Why has the Catholic Church been so progressive in this area? I don't think it is right, or Biblical, to sanction marriages that have such a questionable foundation. Just look at what those of us who are on this Forum are already going through because we are interested in the Catholic faith and our spouses are opposed to that.
Along this line, the Bible specifically says, "Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? Anw what communion has light with darkness? And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? And what agreement has the temple of God with idols?" (many of these other faiths, such as Hinduism, have "many gods" that they worship) II Corinthians 6:14-16. Even God's people Israel were warned not to marry foreigners. Why? Because He is a protective Father and the scripture says He jealously yearns over the spirit He has put within us. And when the Jews did marry foreigners, many went off to worship foreign gods and idols, such as the case with King Solomon.
I think that the Catholic Church should be issuing a strong warning against mixed marriages. And if after warning that Catholic believer, the Catholic still makes their intentions known that they wish to marry a non-Catholic, then it should not be blessed with the same kind of ceremony that is befitting to two who are equally yoked. In this case, the Catholic Church being progressive is not the right course of action to take.
To reiterate, I am not saying there should not be dialogue, understanding, reaching out, or making friends with those of different faiths or no faith at all. But marriage must be between a man and woman who are one in spirit, one in faith and one in doctrine. Otherwise, it is a shaky foundation on which to build and more susceptable to problems, such as inner strife, confusion (esp. among the children) and possibly lead to divorce.
Just my two cents. I'd like to hear what others have to say.
Darlene
P.S.: I have always told my daughter that I do not believe in "missionary dating." I have seen too many Christain believers fall away from the faith completely due to the influence of the non-believer.
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4981 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Wed Nov 29th, 2006 06:55 pm |
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Darlene, you bring about so many issues that it is impossible to address them one by one. Instead, let me begin by offering another perspective.
I have identical twin sisters. One married in 1958. The man she married was a good man, but he had been raised in a Baptist home and had never been baptized. She was allowed to be married in the Church, but only outside the sanctuary, in a private ceremony to which only the families could be invited. Her husband had to sign a sworn statement that he would permit their children to be raised Catholic, and my sister had to sign a sworn statement that she would take full responsibility for their faith upbringing.
He made sure the children were grounded in spirituality, and he attended the Catholic church with them for major events. He read his bible (King James) every day, and told his children bible stories and when they were old enough, he made sure they read the bible as well. He never opposed their Catholic upbringing, but he made sure they knew their Christian faith as well. Their children all received all of their sacraments and became active ministers in their church.
My sister and her husband will be married 50 years in 2008. They are still together. After 30 years of marriage, her husband secretly began attending RCIA (he didn't want to hurt his wife if he decided against joining) and was ultimately baptized and joined the Church. It did not make him a better Christian, and he probably knew the Catholic faith better than the catechists. My sister told me one of the highlights of her life was when she, her husband, and her four daughters all ministered together at the same mass.
My other twin sister also married a non-Catholic. His family was in the seafood business. They were so opposed to the Catholic Church that they might eat seafood six days a week, but made sure they always ate meat on Friday. He refused to be married in the Catholic church, and refused to sign the vow to raise their children Catholic. Instead, they were married in a Lutheran church. My other sister was excommunicated for serving as Matron of Honor at her wedding (later lifted) and we were all considered sinners for attending. In fact, my mother almost didn't attend, and it caused a tremendous disruption in the family. Her husband became even more opposed to the Catholic Church. He admitted later that he would have been willing to have his marriage validated by the Church, but he was not going to take an oath to raise his children Catholic (although he would not have opposed it).
My sister became very active in her Lutheran church. Today I don't think they go to church at all, and I don't believe their children do, either.
From a Catholic faith standpoint, what's the better outcome? The mixed marriage that was discouraged but took place, or the marriage between two people of the same faith, neither of which is Catholic?
In the western Church, the ministers of marriage are the couples themselves. Whenever two baptized Christians marry each other, a sacrament takes place unless it is impeded for some reason. That's why marriage situations are so involved when people join the Church.
Let's look at another situation. Let's suppose the Church would adopt the position you advocate, of discouraging mixed marriages. What happens when one spouse converts? A marriage that was not mixed becomes mixed. Should the couple be forced to seek a divorce before one partner can join the Church, or chased away unless both convert? How do you tell the children that the Catholic Church is making their parents split up?
The proper course is to allow mixed marriages, but to provide counseling to make them aware of the problems they will encounter. Differences in faith practices do make a difference, just like other differences, and they need to be fully aware of as many potential problems as possible when they take their vows. The easiest way to prevent divorce is to take the stars out of their eyes and help them to recognize the realities of married life.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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DrDave
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
| Posts: | 211 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Nov 29th, 2006 10:36 pm |
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When I was 19 I met & fell in love with a very attractive young lady who was at the time a member of the Uniting Church (An Australian amalgamation of Presbyterian Methodist & Congregationalist churches). At the time I was going through one of my periodic faith crises and I can confidently say that If I thought for a moment that the Church would force me to choose between my current denomination and her I would have renounced my faith on the spot. As it turned out I married her, with the required permission from the bishop, she later converted to the Catholic faith and we are currently working on raising 5 little Catholics.
Yes Darlene the church does oppose mixed marriages, notice the above mentioned required permission, but it does not do so by banning them. In my case it did so at the parish level through the priest (Now Bishop) insisting on a marriage preparation that encompassed education on the likely & possible problems that might arise in such a marriage, so while we were eventually given permission to pursue our intention to marry we were prevented from plunging in blindly, something for which I am eternally grateful for to the above mentioned Bishop Christoper Prowse. 
I too oppose missionary dating but I do not endorse shutting out the entire non-Catholic population from ones life, which I see as the only possible way of preventing our young from falling in love with those 'heathen' and forcing them into a situation that just begs for a rebellious response.
Similarly I have seen too many examples of good young Catholic people getting married & then having one or both leave the Church that I cannot accept the argument of being 'led astray' by the non Catholic partner, sure some might be led but they must first choose who to follow.
Thats my ramble anyway
Regards Dave
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Talithacumi
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| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Eastern Ohio, USA |
| Posts: | 248 |
| First Name: | Cheri | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic - Latin Rite |
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Posted: Thu Nov 30th, 2006 03:39 am |
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Darlene,
I certainly understand your concerns (I keep swearing to my family I will never date a non-Catholic again, but there's the old saying: "never say never." Who knows what God's plan may be for my life in that area in the future?). However, I have to agree with many points that Rick and Dr. Dave bring up. The Catechism brings up a very good point (paraphrasing): that it is possible that a man or woman may, through their married state, be able to lead their spouse back home to the Catholic Church where they belong.
Yes, granted, it could possibly work the other way. C'est la vie. It is always so. Where there is great potential for a grace-filled moment, the Devil always makes sure he's there to try and prevent it... or make things go his way. Does this mean we shouldn't try for anything good for fear that Satan will get his way? Now, don't get me wrong. It is true that the best way to resist temptation is through prevention, and in that you are right. But on the other hand, if one is too unwilling to take risks, one never bears any fruit nor accomplishes anything (take it from a fraidy-cat who knows and is trying to change).
So what does this have to do with mixed marriages, you may ask? Well, a Christian marriage is instituted by Christ Himself and there is a great potential for something good. Are we not all called to evangelize, to bring Christ to each other? What better way than through a committed and loving relationship with an intimate partner? In a committed relationship like that of a marriage, there is great potential for drawing each other closer to Christ (and that's what marriage is for, in large part, isn't it?). Through one's acts of love for the other, one imitates Christ and the other can't help but be drawn in his/her spirit. This is the ideal, of course, and not always the reality.
There is great risk. Yes. No doubt. One must be very careful. I think you may have slightly misunderstood what you read in the Catechism. I believe it says that the Church does not encourage a mixed marriage, but She does permit it in the hopes that good will come of it. I believe that one must also have a dispensation from the bishop, so I don't think it can really be said that such a marriage is encouraged. But, as my pastor once told me, when two adults decide to marry, the Church gives them the benefit of the doubt and assumes that, as adults, they know what they are doing. Of course, if the priest knows of some impediment, he is obliged to discourage a marriage and perhaps even refuse to perform the ceremony (depends on the situation...). I believe Rick mentioned that in the sacrament of Marriage, it is the spouses who perform the sacrament. The priest performs in a ministerial function to be sure, but he is basically the Catholic witness who also, I suppose, in persona christi, blesses it via the Catholic Church in the name of Christ.
As for the "unequally yoked" thing, this one always bothered me when my Protestant ex-boyfriend used it against me. This was his family and pastor's opinion of our relationship. He gave in to their thinking. We were "unequally yoked" in their eyes. Yet wasn't Paul talking about believers and non-believers? Yes, Catholics and Protestants are on two different levels where their beliefs are concerned... but we are all still brothers in Christ. We are all Christians. We are all believers in Christ as our Lord and Savior. I think it's so sad that we fight so much amongst ourselves as Christians. It is as Commodore Perry (?... someone refresh my memory...) once said: "We have met the enemy and he is us." We spend so much time fighting amongst ourselves that we don't focus enough on uniting forces and fighting Satan, the real enemy.
As Rick said, there is much to say on this topic, but I'll stop here. I may not be making much sense anyway... it's way after Midnight...
God bless +
- Cheri
____________________
“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Nov 30th, 2006 08:46 am |
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It is as Commodore Perry (?... someone refresh my memory...) once said: "We have met the enemy and he is us."
Ask and you shall receive. Commodore Perry’s famous quote is “We have met the enemy and he is ours.” About 30 years ago a parody of this appeared in the comic strip Pogo, in which the words were twisted to “We have met the enemy and he is us.” This seems to be the version everybody remembers because it is so true.
David
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Talithacumi
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| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Eastern Ohio, USA |
| Posts: | 248 |
| First Name: | Cheri | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic - Latin Rite |
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Posted: Thu Nov 30th, 2006 03:11 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: [size=It is as Commodore Perry (?... someone refresh my memory...) once said: "We have met the enemy and he is us."
Ask and you shall receive. Commodore Perry’s famous quote is “We have met the enemy and he is ours.” About 30 years ago a parody of this appeared in the comic strip Pogo, in which the words were twisted to “We have met the enemy and he is us.” This seems to be the version everybody remembers because it is so true.
David]
David, thanks. I can always count on you, oh wise one!  I guess I had the right person but the wrong quote! - and here I was thinking it might be the other way around. Oops. Shows how much I know of my history. Well, what can I say? My memory's not so great, and history is so vast. Methinks one must have a photographic memory to remember all the stuff you seem to. Either that or a lot of patience to take the time to research it.
Anyway, thanks for the correction.
JMJ
- Cheri
____________________
“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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Darlene
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 877 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Sat Dec 2nd, 2006 07:06 pm |
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Hello again Folks,
I appreciate all your replies. BTW, I didn't actually get a look/see at the Catechism on this subject. It was through watching EWTN that I heard what the Church teaches. Now if the Church does indeed require counseling to inform the couples of the problems that might ensure, then I think there is certainly merit in that.
And yes Cheri, I do think there is way too much fighting between Catholics and Protestants. I don't oppose those marriages as much as the ones that are with non-Catholics, (which could include atheists) or other religions such as Muslims or Hindus. They are not believers in Christ and the problems in such a marriage have potentially dangerous results!!
Cajunrick, as far as your examples are concerned, they are good for examples. Yet I can tell you of examples where Christains married non-Christains (and this is my "beef" more than marriages between Catholics and Protestants), and it was the Christain who ended up denying their faith. Why? Because the influence of an ungodly person in a home environment esp. between spouses can be very powerful. Our daughter was dating a non-Christain (to our dismay) for quite some time. As time went on, it became more and more difficult to pray with her or even have fellowship in Christ with her. She became so distant from Jesus that my husband and I were gravely concerned for her spiritual welfare. Just recently the relationship dissolved and I couldn't help wondering if God's hand was in it. Since then, it is very easy to have Christain fellowship with her. She has asked many times over for us to pray for her and she is very open to hearing scripture applied to a particular situation. I attribute that to the fact that the unbelieving boyfriend no longer has the same influence in her life.
Suffice it to say, I think I need to actually read what the Catechism says on this matter. However, can someone then interpret to me what St. Paul meant in this passage regarding being "unequally yoked?" Sure sounds as though he is talking about marriage to me. And that is what I was taught it meant, among other things as well, such as partaking in activities with the ungodly which will harm our relationship with God. Elsewhere it says in scripture, "Bad company ruins good morals." That's rather explicit, isn't it?
Again, thanks for your input.
Love in Christ,
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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lia
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| Joined: | Mon Dec 11th, 2006 |
| Location: | Quezon City, Philippines |
| Posts: | 86 |
| First Name: | lia | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Dec 11th, 2006 10:12 pm |
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Darlene,
I think what it means is that if you're faith is not strong, do not marry someone who is like you...not of strong of faith. For both will be led astray.
Lia
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Man can't b forced 2 accept the truth.He can b drawn toward the truth only by his own nature, that is, by his own freedom w/c commits him 2 search sincerely 4 truth & when he finds it, 2 adhere 2 it both in his conviction & his behavior.-- JP2
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GodBlessJoanie
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| Joined: | Sun Dec 10th, 2006 |
| Location: | Washingtonville, New York USA |
| Posts: | 10 |
| First Name: | Joanie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Dec 11th, 2006 11:15 pm |
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I dated a LOT of Protestant men, but for me, I found the stronger I got in my faith in HIS Church, the more important it became for me to marry someone who was not only Catholic, but CATHOLIC!
Living, Breathing and Practicing.
How could I not share receiving the Eucharist with the man I loved the most on this planet?
In the words of Fr. John Corapi "I want all my friends to have the fullness of the faith, and to come to Christ's One-True Church where there are 7 Sacraments, not 2."
Blessings,
Joanie
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God doesn't call the qualified, HE qualifies the CALLED!
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