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Luvadoxi
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| Joined: | Fri Jan 12th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Luvadoxi | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic convert; former Presbyterian and Lutheran |
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Posted: Tue Apr 15th, 2008 03:26 am |
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We were Lutherans married 34 years ago, in the 70s. I considered marriage to be between us two; my husband said children made a family. We didn't worry about it, though, since we were planning to use birth control at least at first....and of course had no idea I'd ever be Catholic and face these sorts of issues...who'd have thought birth control was a sin???
Anyway, we've since had two children (now grown) and used BC on and off. When I converted 5 years ago, I was immediately determined to be faithful to Church teachings and stopped ABC immediately.
When we went into marriage, I figured I'd just worry about children later, confident that I'd get my way, whatever that would be! From time to time we didn't use "protection", but usually we did.
I'm sure our story is the story of many, if not most couples...yet I've lately been worried about whether we're validly married or not. If "form" "matter" and "consent" make this Sacrament, wouldn't our complete ignorance about this be irrelevant to its validity?
Also, was our marriage validated the first time we didn't use ABC? Or if I made some sort of internal correction of consent? (You can tell a person who has a fool for a canon lawyer, right? A little research is a dangerous thing... )
I could really use some help! Somehow in personally trying to discuss it, I get tongue-tied. Any canon lawyers here who could help me?
Thank you and God bless!
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DrDave
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Apr 15th, 2008 08:44 am |
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Two things came to mind while reading your post, the first is that the Church presumes the validity of a marriage until proven otherwise, so in your case, the presumption is that you are validly married.
The second thing that came to mind is that if it were the case that there was a defect that prevented the sacrament from 'taking' then all that would be needed to rectify the situation would be a convalidation - essentially renewing your vows before a priest, perhaps something to think about for your next anniversary?
If you're truly concerned speak to your pastor.
Regards Doc
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Apr 15th, 2008 11:13 am |
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The Church presumes your marriage is valid unless proven otherwise, and it doesn't sound like there is any reason to doubt the validity. Remember that a couple that is infertile for any reason can still validly marry.
So it doesn't seem you have anything to be concerned about, but if you are, a simple, informal renewal of your vows will ease your mind. As far as the Church is concerned, presuming neither of you have ever been married to anyone else, your marriage is valid.
We didn't worry about it, though, since we were planning to use birth control at least at first....and of course had no idea I'd ever be Catholic and face these sorts of issues...who'd have thought birth control was a sin???
Certainly not a whole lot of Catholics today! Artificial contraception is a grave evil, but its use does not invalidate the marriage.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Ali
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| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Apr 15th, 2008 12:44 pm |
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{{hugs}} I'm sure most of us here can attest to using BC at some time in the past.
{confession} After the birth of our son, my dh decided to have a vasectomy. He was done having children. We were no where near the Catholic church at that time. It makes me sad now that we can't practice what we preach (although we did used NFP between kids). But we rejoice in God's mercy and forgiveness of our sins, even when we do not deserve it.
Ali
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David W. Emery
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| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Apr 15th, 2008 01:44 pm |
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Others have dealt with your question from a legal standpoint. My approach will instead be moral.
Your story indicates that you practiced contraception because this was the accepted thing in your environment at the time; you were misled, not malicious. You simply did not know that it was wrong — and you were not Catholic, so you would not be expected to know it.
You also seem to indicate that you had no intrinsic prejudice against having children, that your attitude was more a product of your environment than of conviction. If such a prejudice had existed, this is what would have invalidated the marriage, not the use of artificial contraceptives as a means to that end. (This is the point that Rick made above: it is the intention to reject a primary end of marriage that invalidates a marriage, not the means one uses to attain such an end. Most people are in fact rather hazy on their motives for contraception and even abortion. They do it because it is bandied about as “standard practice,” not because they are convinced that, in spite of its intrinsic evil, it is the only path that makes sense. So in the final analysis, they do not know what they are doing.)
Then, when you found out about the moral realities of contraception, you stopped using it. This again shows your good will.
Overall, then, you seem to have engaged in a de facto sin, not an intentional one. In Catholic terms, your culpability would be venial, not mortal, and your marriage was valid from the beginning. That is this layman’s opinion. My advice: Talk it over with your confessor. He will let you know if he sees a problem.
David
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Luvadoxi
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| Joined: | Fri Jan 12th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 12 |
| First Name: | Luvadoxi | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic convert; former Presbyterian and Lutheran |
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Posted: Tue Apr 15th, 2008 05:31 pm |
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Thank you for all the good advice and compassionate concern.  About prejudice against having children...that's part of the problem...I *did* have such a prejudice, due to problems in my past. However, it's sort of fuzzy when I try to figure out how firm I was on this point or not...it was just a decision I could put off because of BC. But I wasn't very child-friendly at the time. In fact, I resented the idea that women had to have children. A combination of my own personal history and the times (I am woman...hear me roar, etc.) It's true that I had no idea of what Christian marriage really is.
But my concern is...isn't a sacrament about objective form and matter? Does my own ignorance or confused thinking even make a difference?
Also some questions I have: would the prejudice against having children been removed the first time we stopped using ABC, or does some formal procedure have to be followed. And does one need to re-do Confession and say that all the Holy Communions I've received since beginning to worry about this are sacreligeous? Should I receive Communion now--that sort of thing.
As far as discussing with a confessor--I'll have to do it, but whenever I try to discuss anything in person with someone regarding the Faith, there are communication problems. Also, it seems that priests/deacons around here may not see a problem with using birth control, and they're very uncomfortable with hearing sexual sins in confession. I'd just be dismissed as one more scrupulous person (and I really think that that's not the case here). Since I have trouble framing the issue in person, I do better online.
Thanks again--I welcome any and all thoughts on this.
Ali--thanks for the hugs! ((((Hugs back))))
Last edited on Tue Apr 15th, 2008 05:41 pm by Luvadoxi
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Apr 15th, 2008 05:49 pm |
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Luvadoxi wrote: I *did* have such a prejudice, due to problems in my past. However, it's sort of fuzzy when I try to figure out how firm I was on this point or not...it was just a decision I could put off because of BC. But I wasn't very child-friendly at the time. In fact, I resented the idea that women had to have children. A combination of my own personal history and the times (I am woman...hear me roar, etc.) It's true that I had no idea of what Christian marriage really is.
If there is one thing I've learned from many years of marriage (almost 36) and from working with couples who are going to be married, no one ever has any real idea of what marriage is all about! We have ideas and expectations and they never come true. We get married for better, for richer, and for health. And that's why so many marriages can't survive worse, poor, and sickness. And most people never truly understand what a Christian marriage is supposed to be.
What young woman with stars in her eyes ever looks at her man as 75 years old, bald, with no teeth, feeding him and changing his diapers? What man ever looks at his precious bride in her pure white dress and sees her in a nursing home with Alzheimer's disease, or in a wheel chair because her legs were amputated due to diabetes?
What woman thinks of the pain of childbirth and the problems of raising a teenager when she thinks of a cute, cuddly little baby? What man ever thinks of bailing his teenager out of jail, or talking his college student down from a ledge because of an overdose of drugs? And who today ever thought they would be raising their grandchildren, or that their kids and grandkids would have moved in after losing their homes?
The point is when God called you to have children, you accepted them lovingly. My wife and I deliberately waited six years to have our daughter. She is our only child, but we really felt we needed that time to get to know each other completely before bringing another person into our family. And the Church tells us that's OK.
If God condemned us for our thoughts and wishes when we were young, none of us would ever have a chance at salvation! God made us, God knows us, and God loves us. If you feel actions of yours were wrong, discuss them with your confessor, receive absolution for any sins you may have committed, and feel the full benefit of the forgiveness of God and his Church. But it certainly doesn't seem that you've done anything any more wrong than the rest of us who grew up questioning whether we ever wanted to be responsible for another human being, whether it be a spouse or a child.
Remember that wise theologian, Garth Brooks: One of God's greatest gifts is unanswered prayers!
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Dave Armstrong
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| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
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| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Apr 15th, 2008 06:40 pm |
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Hi Luvadoxi,
Welcome to the forum!
I agree with David and Rick's great advice and insights. You just need to find a good confessor, cease from any contraception, read a book or two on the topic (or some articles: I have several), and accept God's forgiveness. You can't change the past. But you can change the future, and how you approach God and the faith NOW and in the time to come.
My wife and I contracepted for six years as Protestants. We didn't know any better. I had hardly given it a second thought, till I met some Catholics who challenged me to think and to understand that all Christians opposed contraception until 1930. As soon as I grasped this new input, I changed my mind (even before I was convinced of Catholicism). Something can't be a mortal sin if it is done out of ignorance. We weren't "anti-child" any more than you are. We have four children now.
Sometimes it is hard to forgive ourselves. God understands. He forgives you (and all of us). He wants your heart and your obedience and love now. The past is dead and gone.
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Luvadoxi
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| Joined: | Fri Jan 12th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Luvadoxi | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic convert; former Presbyterian and Lutheran |
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Posted: Tue Apr 15th, 2008 07:36 pm |
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CajunRick and Dave--thank you so much for both your advice and your kindness!
I'm not sure our Lutheran wedding vows included the welcoming of children or even mentioned children...do Catholic vows have that wording? Whether this influences validity or not, I don't know. It would seem that the requirements of a valid sacramental marriage would be the same for Catholics and other Christians, though.
Maybe my general ignorance leading to hostility to motherhood was fuzzy enough thinking that we could squeak by. Like you all were saying about trusting in God's love and mercy. Does eccelsia supplet apply here?
You can see why the prospect of discussing this face to face with a canon law expert intimidates me...my mind would definitely turn even more to mush!
(Garth Brooks--my favorite theologian also!!)
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Apr 15th, 2008 09:35 pm |
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Luvadoxi wrote: I'm not sure our Lutheran wedding vows included the welcoming of children or even mentioned children...do Catholic vows have that wording?
Yes, unless in the priest's judgement it is not appropriate, such as when my 78 year old father married his second wife! it is not mandatory if there are known issues such as a woman who has had a hysterectomy due to cervical cancer or something like that. But it is normally part of the wedding vows that the couple will accept children and raise them in the Church.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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DrDave
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
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Posted: Tue Apr 15th, 2008 10:04 pm |
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I think it might be helpful at this point to point out what would be grounds for a 'declaration of nullity', and how it differs from your situation.
My wife's Matron of Honour at our wedding, found out that the man she married 'always intended to never have children'. Others in his family knew of this intent on his part even before they met, but he kept it from her as he guessed it would be a 'deal breaker'. His hope was that as time wore on, she would grow to be comfortable with the idea of always being a childless couple - he was wrong. In their Catholic wedding ceremony he said 'I do' when asked if he would 'accept children lovingly from God' but in his heart he intended to do everything in his power to prevent that from ever happening. That was grounds for a 'declaration of nullity'.
In your case it appear that you were ambivalent on the question of children, as are unfortunately many couples, but from what you have said it does not appear that at the time of your marriage ceremony you were completely hostile to the idea of ever having children of your own. So I think that if you were to seek a 'declaration of nullity' on these grounds you would be pushing uphill so to speak.
Regards Doc
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Luvadoxi
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| First Name: | Luvadoxi | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic convert; former Presbyterian and Lutheran |
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Posted: Wed Apr 16th, 2008 03:40 am |
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| Thank you DrDave...that was very helpful!
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