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mrsbill
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| Joined: | Tue Dec 5th, 2006 |
| Location: | Deltona, Florida USA |
| Posts: | 39 |
| First Name: | Nora | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Lutheran & Baptist backgrounds, currently on the Road to Rome! |
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Posted: Tue Dec 5th, 2006 08:58 pm |
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I am so glad I found this board (thanks to my husband who told me about it!). I am a Protestant (brought up Lutheran, but not really a born again Christian until I was in my early thirties - I'm now 40). For the past 8 or 9 years I have been an active Evangelical Christian, within the Southern Baptist denomination. Over the past few months I have come to have issues with our church's practices and beliefs in several areas of theology, most specifically with Communion, which in our church, when it actually occurs (a rare occasion anymore), is treated more like cracker and juice snack time, than the important event that it is! This, and the 'saved' attitude practiced in my church (you know, the once you are saved pretty much anything goes, you're still going to heaven attitude), as well as other things, have caused me to study the Bible more in depth, and through a series of events, led me to truly begin to understand and embrace the Catholic church and its teachings. I am currently considering conversion, but because I place such an high importance personally on Communion (the Eucharist), the thought of not being able to partake in it is very painful for me. It literally breaks my heart.
You see, I was married very young (only a few months out of high school at age 18) to my high school sweetheart. He had a Catholic upbringing (his aunt is even a nun), but I don't think he really practiced it personally, and I'm not sure he does now either. We were young and stupid, you know how that goes, and mostly just wanted out of our houses and away from our parents, because, hey, we were 18 and we knew it all, right! 
Anyway we went to the courthouse and got married one day, came home and moved all of our stuff out of parents' houses and that was it. I got pregnant at 19, and had the baby at 20. All was not well however. He was enjoying his new found freedom away from his devout Catholic family and spending most of his time partying, hanging out with his friends, and drinking heavily. I, of course, had no friends, as I was busy taking care of baby! I recognized he had a problem with drinking (I still say he is an alcholic to this day, but he refutes that). Then I become pregnant with our second son and he was born when we were 22. By the time he was born, my husband had a girlfriend on the side and was partying and drinking every night (and I can only imagine what else). When my baby was a month old, I found out for sure he was having an affair. I actually had him put into a detox facility for 72 hours, because I felt that the drinking was leading to a lot of these problems. He fought that, saying he didn't have a problem, but the center determined he was indeed an addict, when he started getting the shakes and other detox symptoms after being away from the bottle for just 24 hours. After the 72 hours he left, and they said they couldn't hold him any longer without his consent. He moved in with his girlfriend and set up house with her. The fought and broke up after a few months and I took him back, I wanted the marriage to work, if but for the sake of my children. He went back to her several weeks later. About a year later, with her help (she worked for an attorney) he filed for a divorce and me and the babies were on our own for two years. It was very tough, but I did it.
Then I met my second husband. He happily accepted my children as his own and raised them from the time they were 3 and 5. Now the kids are all grown up and simply great kids (ages 18 and 20). Both in college, both Christian, both sound and moral adults. While they saw their father at times when they were elementary age, he moved out of state and only has had contact with them maybe once or twice a year via phone for over 10 years at this point. Child support continued to be paid until they turned 18 however, due to payroll deductions. He came to town when the oldest graduation high school a few years back, but didn't bother to show up for the youngest's graduation this past May.
Anyway, my husband and I have been married almost 16 years now and I love him even more now than the day I married him!
He was brough up in a Catholic home, like my first husband, but really wasn't practicing either when we married. We were married by a justice of the peace as well, but at least it was a nice wedding this time! He has been involved with the children and me all these years in our Protestant church, but truly feels like he belongs in the Catholic church and wants to come home. He hasn't pressured me to join, but instead has encourage study and prayer in my church decisions, and I have come to the decision that it is where I belong as well.
Here is the problem (you are saying, my gosh, after all that, here is the problem, right!)...I understand that our marriage is not considered valid in the Catholic church and therefore we cannot participate in the Eucharist (which literally breaks my heart, I have actually cried over the prospect of not being able to partake). I know I can file for an annulment and I would ultimately love to renew our vows in the Catholic church, as I know that my husband is my soul mate and the one God prepared just for me to spend the rest of my life with. I got sidetracked by a stupid decision made at 18 (although I can't say I would change it for the world because of the two beautful sons God blessed me with).
I have looked into the annulment process for the diocese in our area and it looks like it will run $300, plus my ex-husband will need to be contacted (I understand that, but I don't think he will react well to the news, even though there is no love lost between us and he is remarried, he's just funny that way), and I need to come up with three witnesses that knew us. I honestly don't have three witnesses! I have my sister and that's it. This was 20 years ago. I had no friends back then, and the few aquantances that may have known us are LONG gone and I have no way to contact them! My sister does have a friend of hers that knew both of us, that she said she could try to contact, but that's about it. My dad and grandmothers are all passed away, which just leaves my mom, who I haven't even told I am considering joining the Catholic church because she will totally freak out on my and be very unsupportive of it, so I can't see her participating in an annulment process. I haven't spoken to his side of the family since our divorce and wouldn't even know how to contact them. My stomach is in knots over this. Should I even try? I hate to be out $300, which I understand is for expenses, and have nothing come of it. Do I have to live my life without ever participating (or my husband being able to participate) in the Eucharist? That would be extremely painful for me. Just how difficult is this process? From what I've read it can be really hard to get an annulment.
It's crazy because I do totally understand the church's stand on marriage and totally agree with it. I wish I had been as 'learned' back then as I am now and really understood what marriage means in God's eyes. After you become an active Christian you see things so much differently. Age 18 is not the right age to make decisions that will affect the rest of your lives in such a profound way. Sigh! 
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4981 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Wed Dec 6th, 2006 01:11 am |
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mrsbill wrote: You see, I was married very young (only a few months out of high school at age 18) to my high school sweetheart. He had a Catholic upbringing (his aunt is even a nun), ... Anyway we went to the courthouse and got married one day,
Actually, this is the only relevant fact. Your first husband was Catholic and he was not married in the presence of a priest. You should be eligible for what's called a Declaration of Nullity According to Form, which means that the form of the marriage was invalid. In some exceptional cases, I have seen this type of declaration processed in minutes without the Tribunal ever even getting involved. Of course, I live in a small diocese and know the proper people, so sometimes we can short-circuit the process.
I can't tell you exactly how yours will proceed, but if your ex-husband seeks the declaration, it should be easy to obtain and quickly processed. It will be a little more complicated if you do it, but not a lot. The cost is reasonable but if you really can't afford it, it can be waived. And if the circumstances are truly as you present them, the application is simple, the process is quick, and the results are virtually guaranteed.
If your first husband refuses to participate, the process gets more complicated but not impossible. The Church requires that he be given the opportunity to participate, but his participation is not required. Also, given the fact that you are seeking a declaration of nullity according to form, witnesses may not be required.
Find a priest or a lay advocate who is willing to work with you and tell them you are seeking a declaration of nullity because of a defect of form, and you should find the process gets a lot simpler. If necessary, get in touch with your diocese's Judicial Vicar directly. (Your parish office can tell you who he is.) He will be the one who rules on the validity of your petition. You don't have to get into the issues of addiction or anything else, just tell him that your first marriage was to a baptized Catholic but you were married before a Justice of the Peace. He'll probably need your first husband's baptismal certificate, your marriage license, and your divorce decree, and he'll take it from there. Depending on his workload and your diocese's rules, he may even be able to issue the declaration on the spot.
Once your petition is granted, you and your current husband will have to renew your vows in the Church to have your marriage validated. Then you will be free to join the Church and receive Eucharist.
(I am making an assumption that your current husband was not previously married. If he was, he will also have to seek a declaration of nullity, probably also according to form.)
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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brian
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 720 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Wed Dec 6th, 2006 01:15 am |
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| i met a catholic couple who were are planning a catholic ceremony in may, but in the meantime were married at a courthouse. i thought this seemed wrong, but i was not sure and it was not my place to correct them. but it did disappoint me. so is it wrong that they did this and will be married sacramentally later? does the church view them as living in sin?
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4981 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Wed Dec 6th, 2006 01:24 am |
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brian wrote: i met a catholic couple who were are planning a catholic ceremony in may, but in the meantime were married at a courthouse. i thought this seemed wrong, but i was not sure and it was not my place to correct them. but it did disappoint me. so is it wrong that they did this and will be married sacramentally later? does the church view them as living in sin?
They are not validly married until they exchange their vows in front of the Church's official witness, usually a priest or deacon. Being married at a courthouse shows their disregard for Church law, and many priests would then refuse to marry them on that timetable.
In my state, couples are required to register with the priest at least four months prior to their wedding to prevent impulsive actions. Some leave the church and head for the courthouse because they feel they can't wait. Quite often they've already filed for divorce before they could have even been married in the Church.
In some countries church marriages are not legally valid, so it is customary to have a civil wedding before the religious wedding. This is acceptable as long as the marriage is not consumated prior to the religious ceremony. If this couple has legally married for civil purposes, such as to simplify the process of buying a house together, but does not live together or consumate their marriage, then it is acceptable. However, especially in today's American culture, that is highly doubtful.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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mrsbill
Member
| Joined: | Tue Dec 5th, 2006 |
| Location: | Deltona, Florida USA |
| Posts: | 39 |
| First Name: | Nora | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Lutheran & Baptist backgrounds, currently on the Road to Rome! |
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Posted: Wed Dec 6th, 2006 01:33 am |
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cajunrick wrote: Actually, this is the only relevant fact. Your first husband was Catholic and he was not married in the presence of a priest. You should be eligible for what's called a Declaration of Nullity According to Form, which means that the form of the marriage was invalid...Also, given the fact that you are seeking a declaration of nullity according to form, witnesses may not be required.
Once your petition is granted, you and your current husband will have to renew your vows in the Church to have your marriage validated. Then you will be free to join the Church and receive Eucharist.
(I am making an assumption that your current husband was not previously married. If he was, he will also have to seek a declaration of nullity, probably also according to form.)
Thank you so much for that information. I actually cried when I read it (I am getting way too emotional here!), it just seemed like such a relief to get this information, which I did not know.
Yes, my first husband was a baptized Catholic, as far as I know. Given the fact that his family was so devout, I am sure he was baptized. Like I said his aunt (i.e. his mother's sister) is even a nun in the Roman Catholic church. I wish so much I could speak with her, it's been such a long time and I loved her so much. She was great!
Anyway, I am going to attempt to contact my first husband, although we haven't spoken in years, to try to let him know what is going on. Hopefully he won't be a resistant as I am assuming. I figure I will give him the benefit of the doubt for now.
Then I will proceed as you have suggested, locally, and see what I can do based on your info.
Although my second husband was 30 years old when we got married (I was 25), he had never been married before, which is such a blessing! So there are no issues there.
Our hope is that we WILL be able to renew our vows in the Church at some point soon. It is something we both want very much!!! All would feel right with our world when that happens.
Thank you for the info. I am loving this website beyond belief...it is filled with so much great information. From testimonies to helpful forums!
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mrsbill
Member
| Joined: | Tue Dec 5th, 2006 |
| Location: | Deltona, Florida USA |
| Posts: | 39 |
| First Name: | Nora | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Lutheran & Baptist backgrounds, currently on the Road to Rome! |
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Posted: Mon Jan 15th, 2007 07:22 pm |
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Just a quick update...I emailed my ex-husband about my plans for annulment and he called me immediatly on the phone when he got the email, and although he is not currently practicing his faith, he is very excited for me and more than happy to help out in any way he can. We talked for a while about the RCC and it even sounds like he misses it, so maybe this will be a springboard to get him back into church!
In any event, he updated me on some things. I assumed his parents (the ones I know) had him baptized, but I found out it was his birth parents that baptized him as a baby. He was placed in foster care and went to live with his parents (as I know them) when he was about two. They never formally adopted him, because they left that choice up to him as he got older -- they wanted to, but he wanted to keep his birth name, etc, so it was never formalized. He was actually under the umbrella of Catholic Social Services in Philly, PA, but was raised from the time he was two by his foster parents. His birth parents were very young and had serious issues, but they were Catholic also. He still has contact with his birth mother, on and off, but she is a complete mess. He knows he was baptized for a fact as a baby by his birth parents, and he was an active Catholic as a child with his foster parents. However, he has know idea where he was baptized. He is very close to his biological brother, who is two years older, and is going to contact him to see if he knows where they may have been baptized. I don't know if his birth mother is going to be much help there or not (mental illness).
He has seen his baptism certificate in the past, and is going to look for it, but with all his military moves, he has know ideas if he will find it or not. Any suggestions? Would you think that Catholic Social Services would still have a file on him, even after all these years (22 years since he was 18)? Would baptism records be somewhere in their records? Would a statement from his Uncle be sufficient (this is his biological Uncle, his biological dad's brother, I believe), who he is close to to this day, and he was his Godfather.
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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Posted: Mon Jan 15th, 2007 07:42 pm |
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mrsbill wrote: He has seen his baptism certificate in the past, and is going to look for it, but with all his military moves, he has know ideas if he will find it or not. Any suggestions? Would you think that Catholic Social Services would still have a file on him, even after all these years (22 years since he was 18)? Would baptism records be somewhere in their records? Would a statement from his Uncle be sufficient (this is his biological Uncle, his biological dad's brother, I believe), who he is close to to this day, and he was his Godfather.
A letter is a definite start but may not be enough. Does his uncle remember the city in which he was baptized? Or was he baptized by a military chaplain? Does he know his birth name and his birth parent's name? How about an approximate date?
The Military Archdiocese keeps sacramental records for sacraments received on military bases in the U.S. and overseas. You can find the web site here, and online requests are accepted and processed. Just click the "Online Requests" button. Or, you can print an application, fill out as much information as is available, and mail it to them.
Baptismal records can be tracked down pretty easily as long as the city area is known. Your local church will have a directory of all dioceses in the United States, or you can find them online through the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops web site. You may need to send a couple of dozen letters out to all of the churches in a given city, or fax information to them, but it's worth the effort. Your parish will help you, and I promise you won't be the first person with a similar request.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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mrsbill
Member
| Joined: | Tue Dec 5th, 2006 |
| Location: | Deltona, Florida USA |
| Posts: | 39 |
| First Name: | Nora | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Lutheran & Baptist backgrounds, currently on the Road to Rome! |
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Posted: Mon Jan 15th, 2007 10:36 pm |
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Sorry, maybe I didn't explain it well enough. His parents (real or foster) weren't in the military, HE is in the military. He is sure he had it when he moved out of his parents house (when we got married), but since it's been 22 years and many moves later, many with the Marines, he's not sure if he can find it.
Yes, he knows both his birth parents' names...he still talks to his birth mother on occasion, but is sure she won't remember where he was baptized, since she has so many mental issues. His birth name is still the same as it ever was -- since he was never formally adopted by his foster parents. There was nothing secretive about his foster care, everything was out in the open.
His biological parents had him and his brother when they were very young. His brother is named after his birth dad. My ex came along two years later. His real dad was in and out of jail and his mother had mental health issues and was unable to care for the boys. I believe his older brother went to live with his Uncle and he was placed in the care of Catholic Social Services, but it was all out in the open as far as his parents identity, etc. and he got back in touch with his mother when he was older. Plus we know he was baptized in Philladelphia for sure. His birth family has never lived anywhere else and is still there.
His foster family raised him from the age of two and always left the option open for him to have contact with his real family. He grew up having contact with his real brother and his uncle. His foster family (who I consider his mom and dad) are wonderful, loving and devout Catholics. His foster mom's sister (his Aunt Pat) is a nun and will be celebrating her 50th Jubilee next year (praise God). I understand that is a very big deal!
Thanks for the idea about his biological uncle however! He was there, as he was listed as the Godfather, so he would know where it took place!!! I will get him to ask him and hopefully we can go from there...
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
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Posted: Mon Jan 15th, 2007 11:34 pm |
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mrsbill wrote:
Plus we know he was baptized in Philladelphia for sure. His birth family has never lived anywhere else and is still there.
Then it should be easy to find. Just call the church in the neighborhood where they lived, and work outward from there. Or call the diocesan chancery office and ask for their help. The phone number is 215-587-3600. I would start with the cardinal's office and ask for their help. You could also call the Cathedral Basilica at 215-561-1313 or 215-561-1314
His foster mom's sister (his Aunt Pat) is a nun and will be celebrating her 50th Jubilee next year (praise God). I understand that is a very big deal!
It's as big a deal as a 50th wedding anniversary.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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