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K. Ewald
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| Joined: | Tue Feb 27th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Kimberly | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic, Baptist, Evangelical Covenant, Lutheran |
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Posted: Thu Mar 1st, 2007 12:20 pm |
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I was baptized in the Catholic church as an infant, but my parents did not raise me Catholic in any way (I was brought up 100% Protestant). When my husband and I got married in '95, we were wed by a Protestant minister. I had NO IDEA in all the world that, since I was still "technically" Catholic, I was subject to canon law and therefore should have gotten special dispensation from the bishop in order to marry outside the Catholic church. My parents (especially my raised-Catholic dad) perhaps ought to have known, but the family had nothing to do with the Catholic church at that time, and I don't think it ever crossed their minds. The pastor who married us never asked if either of us was baptized Catholic, either. It just plain was not an issue.
Well, now that I am in RCIA and planning to become a "real" Catholic, it turns out I have an "irregular" marriage. When I met with the deacon to discuss it, he said my husband and I would have to have a convalidation ceremony, otherwise I won't be able to partake of the Eucharist at the Easter Vigil when I am confirmed.
My husband, staunch Lutheran that he is, is really angry. He did a bit of research into canon law and discovered this thing called radical sanation. I then did a bit more digging and found out it SOUNDS like it might be ideal for our situation. The deacon seems a bit unsure whether this can be done in our diocese for this type of circumstance (he is waiting to hear back from the Tribunal).
My understanding is that radical sanation is like convalidation except without having to renew the consent (no ceremony involved). It is only for use by couples who originally had full consent to marry and who have absolute plans to remain together. The act of radical sanation is supposed to be retroactive---it "fixes" the marriage at the start, so that it is seen as valid from Day 1, rather than only valid from the day of a ceremonial convalidation.
I am REALLY hoping this will work out for us, because my husband is seriously disturbed by this idea that the Church would consider our marriage invalid. I understand how he feels; we both know our marriage is not invalid in the eyes of God. While I have no objection to a convalidation ceremony, given the situation and my husband's intense resistance, it does seem that radical sanation would make the most sense for us.
Just thought I would post this to put the idea out there for anyone else for whom it might be helpful and also just to see if anyone else has been through it or knows about it (is it simple, is it a big complex expensive procedure? etc.).
Kim
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Mar 1st, 2007 03:48 pm |
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K. Ewald wrote: My understanding is that radical sanation is like convalidation except without having to renew the consent (no ceremony involved). It is only for use by couples who originally had full consent to marry and who have absolute plans to remain together. The act of radical sanation is supposed to be retroactive---it "fixes" the marriage at the start, so that it is seen as valid from Day 1, rather than only valid from the day of a ceremonial convalidation.
Radical Sanation is extremely rare, but possible. It doesn't exactly "fix" the marriage; what it does is recognize the sacramentality of a marriage that was not witnessed by a priest. It is not the normal procedure, and because of that, it can take a long time to arrange. A convalidation is much simpler and quicker.
It's a matter of rules. The Church says that as a baptized Catholic, your marriage must be witnessed by an "official witness" of the Church, usually a priest or deacon. He doesn't have to preside over the ceremony; he just has to see it take place. In certain circumstances, the bishop can give permission to be married by someone else (a Protestant minister or even a judge or justice of the peace), but that permission must be given in advance. It's usually reserved for family situations, say where a parent is a judge and the couple wants him or her to perform the ceremony.
After the fact, the Church says, "Well, we didn't see the exchange of vows. How do we know both parties were willing? How do we know no one held a shotgun to their heads, or there wasn't some form of duress?" So the Church doesn't recognize the marriage because it did not take place in the presence of a priest. That doesn't mean the marriage was not a sacrament; the Church does not recognize it as such because it wasn't there.
So in order for a radical sanation to take place, it will have to be proven that the marriage was sacramental along. As I said, I've never dealt with it so I don't know how involved it gets, but I suspect there will have to be written testimony and sworn statements from you, your husband, and possibly witnesses who were present at your original wedding.
It is much easier to simply renew your vows in the presence of a priest. That's all you're doing. You already know your marriage is a sacrament. Now you're going to "jump through a hoop" to convince the Church that your marriage is sacramental. You can do it the easy way or the hard way. Renewing your vows in the presence of a priest is the easy way. Radical sanation is the hard way, it will probably take longer, and it will most likely cost more (because there is no cost involved with a convalidation).
(I have written this basically for your husband. I have not gotten into the sacramental theology or any of the detailed rules of the Church, or the reasons why the Church is so concerned about the validity of marriage. When I said "jump through hoops" I used that term primarily because that's how your husband should think of it. If he chooses to allow you to convalidate your marriage, he will simply be doing it to satisfy some rules, but that's OK. From your standpoint as a couple it is just a renewal of vows. The only difference is that it will be in a Catholic church instead of a Lutheran church.)
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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K. Ewald
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| Joined: | Tue Feb 27th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | Kimberly | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic, Baptist, Evangelical Covenant, Lutheran |
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Posted: Thu Mar 1st, 2007 05:07 pm |
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It is much easier to simply renew your vows in the presence of a priest. That's all you're doing. You already know your marriage is a sacrament. Now you're going to "jump through a hoop" to convince the Church that your marriage is sacramental. You can do it the easy way or the hard way. Renewing your vows in the presence of a priest is the easy way. Radical sanation is the hard way, it will probably take longer, and it will most likely cost more (because there is no cost involved with a convalidation).
Hi CajunRick (I have roots in Louisiana too!)---
I like how you put that---that convalidation would just be to demonstrate to the Church that our marriage is sacramental, that we both consented to it. That might help my husband to understand better. The cost issue, if there is one, should also help! :? I think I might print out your answer to show him!
I have RCIA tonight, so perhaps I'll hear from the deacon about it.
By the way, we WEREN'T married in the Lutheran church. We were married outdoors, at my parents' house (another violation of form), by the pastor of the church I was confirmed in (called Evangelical Covenant, which I believe was a breakaway from Lutheran decades ago). My husband had no problem with that, nor did he seem to have a problem with us not going to church at all for the first seven years of our marriage. If he was so in love with the Lutheran church, you'd think he would have gone by himself if he had to. But I didn't like it at the time, and he didn't like the churches I liked, so we just didn't go at all. Still, it wasn't until I began asking questions about Catholicism that his "super Lutheran" radar went up and he started getting very defensive about the church he was raised in. Lutherans in general are pretty anti-Catholic, as you've said. It's an authority issue. How many verses are there in the Bible that talk about being submissive to those in authority, especially within the church? Protestants really tossed those out the window during the Reformation.
I appreciate your comments. I guess all I can do is leave the whole thing in God's hands and trust it to all work out somehow. Maybe I'll have to wait another year. That would be hard, but it would at least prove that I'm serious.
God's peace,
Kimberly
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Mar 1st, 2007 05:23 pm |
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K. Ewald wrote: Hi CajunRick (I have roots in Louisiana too!)---
I knew I liked you! 
I think I might print out your answer to show him!
Feel free!
By the way, we WEREN'T married in the Lutheran church.
That really doesn't matter. The Latin Catholic Church says the ministers of matrimony are the couples themselves; the priest merely serves as the official witness. So in renewing your vows before a priest, you are publicly demonstrating to the Church what you already know, that your marriage fulfills the requirements for sacramentality. The difference this time is that the Church is aware that the conditions are met, and so can make a record of it. But for you and your husband, it is just another chance to commit to one another. My wife and I have renewed our vows several times in our 34 years, and I believe we have received a "boost" each time that has kept us together through some very difficult times. Without that recommitment, I don't know if we would have made it.
My wife and I are both cradle Catholics and we were married in the Church so I've never been in the position you are in, but I can't understand reluctance to repeat my vows to my wife. I am ready to do that any time, and any place. I hope to have the opportunity again next year for our 35th anniversary, but I am ready today, tomorrow, or any time.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Mar 1st, 2007 05:31 pm |
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| By the way, we have never mentioned Radical Sanation before because no one has ever asked about it. When questions about marriage validation have come up, David and I have often mentioned "other options are available in certain circumstances." Radical Sanation is the term used in Canon Law to indicate recognition of an existing marriage without actually exchanging vows again. It is very rare in the United States, so we've usually just said "ask your priest about other options."
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Mar 2nd, 2007 08:16 pm |
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For the record, I thought I would quote the appropriate section of Canon Law dealing with Radical Sanation:
RADICAL SANATION
Can. 1161 §1. The radical sanation of an invalid marriage is its convalidation without the renewal of consent, which is granted by competent authority and entails the dispensation from an impediment, if there is one, and from canonical form, if it was not observed, and the retroactivity of canonical effects.
§2. Convalidation occurs at the moment of the granting of the favor. Retroactivity, however, is understood to extend to the moment of the celebration of the marriage unless other provision is expressly made.
§3. A radical sanation is not to be granted unless it is probable that the parties wish to persevere in conjugal life.
Can. 1162 §1. A marriage cannot be radically sanated if consent is lacking in either or both of the parties, whether the consent was lacking from the beginning or, though present in the beginning, was revoked afterwards.
§2. If this consent was indeed lacking from the beginning but was given afterwards, the sanation can be granted from the moment the consent was given.
Can. 1163 §1. A marriage which is invalid because of an impediment or a defect of legitimate form can be sanated provided that the consent of each party perseveres.
§2. A marriage which is invalid because of an impediment of natural law or of divine positive law can be sanated only after the impediment has ceased.
Can. 1164 A sanation can be granted validly even if either or both of the parties do not know of it; nevertheless, it is not to be granted except for a grave cause.
Can. 1165 §1. The Apostolic See can grant a radical sanation.
§2. The diocesan bishop can grant a radical sanation in individual cases even if there are several reasons for nullity in the same marriage, after the conditions mentioned in can. 1125 for the sanation of a mixed marriage have been fulfilled. He cannot grant one, however, if there is an impediment whose dispensation is reserved to the Apostolic See according to the norm of can. 1078, §2, or if it concerns an impediment of natural law or divine positive law which has now ceased.
Impediments mentioned which are reserved to the Apostolic See are marriages involving priests and religious with sacred vows, and anyone who has been involved in bringing about the death of someone to free them to marry. The radical sanation in these cases can only be granted with the approval of the pope. Also, marriages between parents and children, grandparents and grandchildren (even if by virtue of adoption), siblings, and first cousins can never be sanated.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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jonathan Loo
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Posted: Mon Apr 9th, 2007 12:05 am |
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You might want to ask the deacon to check with the tribunal again. There may be no fee, and although the process may take a long time, that does not necessarily mean that it is complex or difficult (for you).  Last edited on Mon Apr 9th, 2007 12:05 am by jonathan Loo
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Apr 9th, 2007 10:18 am |
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jonathan Loo wrote: You might want to ask the deacon to check with the tribunal again. There may be no fee, and although the process may take a long time, that does not necessarily mean that it is complex or difficult (for you).
Hi, Jonathan, welcome to CHN. We're glad to have you join us. I hope you'll drop by Fellowship Hall and tell us a little about yourself.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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graceknowledgement
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Posted: Sun Jan 13th, 2008 03:56 am |
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CajunRick said:
After the fact, the Church says, "Well, we didn't see the exchange of vows. How do we know both parties were willing? How do we know no one held a shotgun to their heads, or there wasn't some form of duress?" So the Church doesn't recognize the marriage because it did not take place in the presence of a priest. That doesn't mean the marriage was not a sacrament; the Church does not recognize it as such because it wasn't there.
Graceknowledgement says:
Rick--According to what you've written here, would enough proof of consent be available with a video of the wedding, the shower, the wedding rehearsal dinner, etc? My wife believes having a convalidation ceremony is akin to saying God was not in our marriage the last 14 years. She definitely thinks it wrong to ask for a blessing now. Having the church recognize that our marriage has always been consensual, and blessed by God right from the beginning, is important to her. To tell you the truth, I would prefer that everything fall that way, too. She is not interested in becoming a Catholic right now, though I am. I was confirmed in the Catholic church, but she wasn't ever a part of the RC. She is a baptized Christian.
I tried to speak to my priest about radical sanation but he gave me a face and talked to me about convalidation. How do I officially proceed with a request for radical sanation? I haven't yet gone to confession or received the Eucharist because of this issue, obviously.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Jan 13th, 2008 01:12 pm |
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graceknowledgement wrote: would enough proof of consent be available with a video of the wedding, the shower, the wedding rehearsal dinner, etc?
Only your bishop can answer that, Peter. Find another priest who will be more interested in helping you, or make an appointment for a more extensive visit with your own priest to explain the circumstances to him.
Given your own faith history, I think a strong case might be made that you formally renounced your Catholic faith. If so, it's quite possible your marriage might be recognized by the Church with no additional action on your part. Your return to the faith will be a little more complicated since you'll then be required to make a formal profession of faith, but from my limited knowledge of your circumstances it seems like there might be multiple possible resolutions to your situation.
The key will be to find a priest or another authorized person who will be willing to work with you, fully examine the situation, and make a determination on the best way to proceed. Your pastor might not be the best person to work with, especially if he is overworked. You might even need to meet with a member of the Tribunal or the Judicial Vicar (Canon Lawyer) of the diocese. The video would probably not be required, but it couldn't hurt. You will need copies of your marriage license and any other documentation you can produce such as baptismal certificates in both the Catholic and Nazerene faith, your ministerial certification, etc.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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