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carenanightchild
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Posted: Wed Aug 8th, 2007 10:57 am |
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According to my training, I'm used to the idea of "the priesthood of all believers." I am trying to work out the idea of an ordained priesthood. If I understand correctly, any person, even a non-Christian, can administer baptism. Marriage also requires only the two parties involved. However, the other sacraments (I'm not even sure that I remember them all) can only be administered by a priest, acting "in Christ's place." Could someone clarify this for me (particularly the part about being "in Christ's place")?
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Aug 8th, 2007 12:53 pm |
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carenanightchild wrote: However, the other sacraments (I'm not even sure that I remember them all) can only be administered by a priest, acting "in Christ's place." Could someone clarify this for me (particularly the part about being "in Christ's place")?
There are seven sacraments. You mentioned Baptism and Matrimony. The others are Eucharist, Confirmation, Holy Orders, Penance, and Anointing of the Sick. Only an ordained priest can perform these sacraments. By virtue of his ordination, he acts in persona Christi or "in the person of Christ" so that it is not the priest who administers the sacrament but actually Christ acting through the priest.
The ordained priesthood goes back at least to the days of Abraham, so this is nothing new. We are indeed a race of priests, but just as in the days of Solomon's temple, there are levels of priests. Jesus is the only High Priest, and the ordained priests act on his behalf. It is the same system as the one in place when David ruled Israel, and when Jesus sacrificed at the temple, except that our High Priest is both human and Divine.
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Rick Luquette
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carenanightchild
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Posted: Wed Aug 8th, 2007 01:42 pm |
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| Sort of getting it now. Could you explain a little more clearly what you mean by "levels of priesthood"? I'm trying to reconcile this with the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers. If I remember correctly, in Israel the people were not allowed inside the temple at all. It seems that their role in worship was pretty limited.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Aug 8th, 2007 01:53 pm |
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carenanightchild wrote: Sort of getting it now. Could you explain a little more clearly what you mean by "levels of priesthood"? I'm trying to reconcile this with the doctrine of the priesthood of all believers. If I remember correctly, in Israel the people were not allowed inside the temple at all. It seems that their role in worship was pretty limited
Yes, the people were not allowed in the sanctuary, only the priests. But only the high priest was allowed in the Holy of Holies, the Tabernacle, and only once a year. If I remember my Jewish history correctly, the high priest was the normal minister of sacrifice, except that he could delegate that authority to other priests. So we have the lowest level of priest who was permitted in the sanctuary, a higher level who could offer sacrifice on behalf of the high priest, and the high priest himself who could enter the tabernacle.
In the same way, we are the "lower level" of "ordinary priest" while our ordained ministers act on behalf of Christ through delegation from the bishop, while Christ himself stands as high priest.
Someone more versed in Jewish history might be able to give a more complete explanation.
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carenanightchild
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Posted: Wed Aug 8th, 2007 05:30 pm |
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That sort of makes sense, but I'm not sure about the high priest being the normal minister of the sacrifice, and the other priests being in his place. A bit more clarity on this (anyone?) might help.
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Wed Aug 8th, 2007 05:53 pm |
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It is my understanding that by apostolic succession, Christ ministers to us all, through time and space (throughout the world) by the hands of the priests, who administer the sacraments in persona Christi. Holy orders enable the priest to stand in for Christ here on earth. Example: during consecration, when the priest says "On the night he was betrayed, he took bread and gave you thanks and praise. He broke the bread, gave it to his disciples, and said: (then the tense changes from past to present as the priest becomes in persona Christi) "Take this, all of you, and eat it: this is my body which will be given up for you."
David or Rick please correct me if I have stated this in error!
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Annie
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Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2007 02:18 pm |
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You are right that the priest is acting in persona Christi capitis but I don't think he changes at the consecration, he is acting in persona Christi capitis throughout the Mass and also during other rites, such as in the confessional.
The language "priesthood of believers" is perceived as very Protestant and is part of the controversy surrounding the implementation of the Vatican II reforms. Some say there is now insufficient emphasis on the ordained priest's proper role, there has been a softening of the lines of demarcation between priest and laity. This is why the very conservative Catholics go apoplexic when female altar servers, etc. are discussed, it is perceived as a theological slippery slope.
Here is a case in point, a friend of mine is an Extraordinary Minister and he had a question about his being permitted to break hosts into halves when he was running out one day. The priest told him, "you can do anything I can." My conservative friend reminded him, "No, I can never confect the Eucharist." The very liberal priest went, "Oh, yeah, I forgot."
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2007 02:30 pm |
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I get it, he is not Christ come to earth himself but is acting on Christ's behalf? The host becomes Christ. ?? :?
If you go to http://www.stmarysgvl.org and go to the photo gallery you can see pictures of the first solemn mass of Fr. Cassabon, including his investiture(?) It was so meaningful to me to see a new priest perform this most holy sacrament. Thanks for the info!
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Annie
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Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2007 03:04 pm |
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| Yes, he is acting on Christ's behalf but in a special way, the theology is more involved than I have stated. The priest is considered an alter Christus, another Christ. And yes, the host is transubstantiated into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord. There was very nitpicking debate in the Middle Ages about when this actually occurs. We tend to believe it happens when the priest says, "This is my body/blood." And that is why he elevates the Host at that point and bells ring. In the traditional Latin Mass at that point the congregants were suppposed to say to themselves silently, "My Lord and my God." Last edited on Thu Aug 9th, 2007 03:28 pm by Annie
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2007 03:36 pm |
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Annie wrote: In the traditional Latin Mass at that point the congregants were suppposed to say to themselves silently, "My Lord and my God."
The confession of St. Thomas is still appropriate at the elevation of the Blessed Sacrament. It is not appropriate, however, to pronounce it out loud. It should be a private profession of faith in the Eucharist.
I've been to some churches where the people recite it together as a prayer during the elevation, and that is not correct as it is not part of the liturgy.
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Annie
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Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2007 03:56 pm |
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Here is a good article on the subject of the nature of the priesthood:
http://www.cfpeople.org/SeminarianWritings/Sem033.html
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japhy
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Posted: Thu Aug 9th, 2007 05:29 pm |
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Annie wrote: [T]he host is transubstantiated into the body, blood, soul and divinity of Our Lord. There was very nitpicking debate in the Middle Ages about when this actually occurs. We tend to believe it happens when the priest says, "This is my body/blood." And that is why he elevates the Host at that point and bells ring. In the traditional Latin Mass at that point the congregants were suppposed to say to themselves silently, "My Lord and my God."
I say Dominus meus et Deus meus to myself at the elevation... I don't know how recently I picked up that habit, but it was in the past several months. Maybe during Lent.
Something that's been bothering me lately is the feeble "elevation" I see some priests doing at Mass. They barely hold the Host or Chalice to the height of their chin! Let the people adore it!
I remember at the parish I grew up at, one priest held it at least as high as his forehead and turned his body to the left and right. Perhaps if more people knew about Adoration, or the history of the liturgy, they'd understand why the priest was holding up the Host.
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Racaela Fultz
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2007 12:23 pm |
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Elizabeth, I, too, struggled with the idea of a priesthood because I was also raised with the priesthood of the believer idea. But then I read much of the New Testament through again with open eyes. And what I found! See, the apostles actually SET UP a priesthood, and SET UP the Church hierarchy, and it’s there for anyone to see, written in the Bible itself. So, without pulling in anything from the fathers, or any Catholic doctrine, this post merely looks at the scripture passages that set up the priesthood and explain its importance and purpose.
I Timothy 3: 1-15 – This passage, as listed below, shows Paul instructing Timothy, who was the Bishop of Ephesus, on how the church is to be run. Notice that that purpose is specifically stated in the last verse. Paul here tells Timothy how a Bishop is to behave, and how deacons are to behave. Priests, who were then called “presbyters,” are not mentioned here, but a hierarchical plan of the church is already being expounded here and set up in this way.
1 This saying is trustworthy: whoever aspires to the office of bishop desires a noble task. 2 Therefore, a bishop must be irreproachable, married only once, temperate, self-controlled, decent, hospitable, able to teach,
3 not a drunkard, not aggressive, but gentle, not contentious, not a lover of money.
4He must manage his own household well, keeping his children under control with perfect dignity;
5 for if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how can he take care of the church of God?
6 He should not be a recent convert, so that he may not become conceited and thus incur the devil's punishment.
7 He must also have a good reputation among outsiders, so that he may not fall into disgrace, the devil's trap.
8 Similarly, deacons must be dignified, not deceitful, not addicted to drink, not greedy for sordid gain,
9 holding fast to the mystery of the faith with a clear conscience.
10 Moreover, they should be tested first; then, if there is nothing against them, let them serve as deacons.
11 Women, similarly, should be dignified, not slanderers, but temperate and faithful in everything.
12 Deacons may be married only once and must manage their children and their households well.
13 Thus those who serve well as deacons gain good standing and much confidence in their faith in Christ Jesus.
14 I am writing you about these matters, although I hope to visit you soon.
15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.
Last edited on Fri Aug 10th, 2007 12:28 pm by Racaela Fultz
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Racaela Fultz
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2007 12:29 pm |
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I Timothy 5:17-25 – Here presbyters, which came to be called priests, are explained. Presbyters “preach and teach” and are in some position where they are open to criticism – as in, they’re working among the people themselves. The last part of this section talks more about presbyters and their qualifications, how they are to not be sinful, but rather be doing good works. Thus we see that Paul IS indeed setting up some sort of class of men to be preaching and teaching, working for God among the ordinary people – um, priests?
17 Presbyters who preside well deserve double honor, especially those who toil in preaching and teaching.
18 For the scripture says, "You shall not muzzle an ox when it is threshing," and, "A worker deserves his pay."
19 Do not accept an accusation against a presbyter unless it is supported by two or three witnesses.
20 Reprimand publicly those who do sin, so that the rest also will be afraid.
21 I charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels to keep these rules without prejudice, doing nothing out of favoritism.
22 Do not lay hands too readily on anyone, and do not share in another's sins. Keep yourself pure.
23 Stop drinking only water, but have a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent illnesses.
24 Some people's sins are public, preceding them to judgment; but other people are followed by their sins.
25 Similarly, good works are also public; and even those that are not cannot remain hidden.
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"To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant" - Cardinal Newman
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Racaela Fultz
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2007 12:30 pm |
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Titus 1:5-11 – In this section, Paul instructs Titus, the Bishop of Crete, in how to establish presbyters. He says one for each town, and towns back then weren’t very large and each had one church. Thus, a presbyter (priest) for each church. Granted, it states that a presbyter is to be married only once (it’s not saying that he must be married), so, admittedly, presbyters were often married. This is because, in the beginning, you didn’t automatically have enough upright godly single men to fill the office of presbyter. As time went on, presbyters were, more and more, single, devoted entirely to God, and eventually that was established as a doctrine. Not a dogma, mind you, not infallible, just a doctrine, the practice that the Church chooses to use. What were these presbyters to do? Paul states that they are to hold fast to the true message as they were taught (i.e. don’t follow your own opinion but rather the Church) and exhort the people with sound doctrine, refuting those who hold incorrect doctrine or plague the Church. One presbyter per church, a godly man seeking God first, someone who will exhort the people with the true gospel as taught by the Church – um, this sounds like a priest. And here it is, Paul setting it up and executing it. It seems clear that the disciples themselves knew that this was the way Jesus wanted it, and were here setting up a priesthood over the people to help lead them to God.
5 For this reason I left you in Crete so that you might set right what remains to be done and appoint presbyters in every town, as I directed you,
6 on condition that a man be blameless, married only once, with believing children who are not accused of licentiousness or rebellious.
7 For a bishop as God's steward must be blameless, not arrogant, not irritable, not a drunkard, not aggressive, not greedy for sordid gain,
8 but hospitable, a lover of goodness, temperate, just, holy, and self-controlled,
9 holding fast to the true message as taught so that he will be able both to exhort with sound doctrine and to refute opponents.
10 For there are also many rebels, idle talkers and deceivers, especially the Jewish Christians.
11 It is imperative to silence them, as they are upsetting whole families by teaching for sordid gain what they should not.
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Racaela Fultz
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2007 12:31 pm |
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James 5: 14-16 – Okay, so we’ve got a priesthood, but are only they supposed to be doing the sacraments? What makes THEM special? Well, James here exhorts presbyters to anoint the sick with oil and pray over them. Clearly, the presbyters (priests) had a special position, a special role to fulfill. This passage, right after speaking of presbyters, prayer, and the anointing of the sick, speaks of the confession of sins. My gut feeling is that that is because it was the presbyters, or priests, who, even in the early church, usually heard confessions.
14 Is anyone among you sick? He should summon the presbyters of the church, and they should pray over him and anoint (him) with oil in the name of the Lord,
15 and the prayer of faith will save the sick person, and the Lord will raise him up. If he has committed any sins, he will be forgiven.
16 Therefore, confess your sins to one another and pray for one another, that you may be healed. The fervent prayer of a righteous person is very powerful.
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"To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant" - Cardinal Newman
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Racaela Fultz
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2007 12:32 pm |
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I Peter 5:1-6 – Wow, you really couldn’t be more obvious about the priesthood than in this passage. Peter, the first pope, states that presbyters (priests) are to tend the flock for God, being examples to the people. He orders the people to be subject to the presbyters (priests). Could this get more clear? Peter, Paul, and James all echo the setting up of a priesthood to stand in the place of Christ and minister to and serve the people.
1 So I exhort the presbyters among you, as a fellow presbyter and witness to the sufferings of Christ and one who has a share in the glory to be revealed.
2 Tend the flock of God in your midst, (overseeing) not by constraint but willingly, as God would have it, not for shameful profit but eagerly.
3 Do not lord it over those assigned to you, but be examples to the flock.
4 And when the chief Shepherd is revealed, you will receive the unfading crown of glory.
5 Likewise, you younger members, be subject to the presbyters. And all of you, clothe yourselves with humility in your dealings with one another, for: "God opposes the proud but bestows favor on the humble."
6 So humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you in due time.
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"To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant" - Cardinal Newman
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Racaela Fultz
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2007 12:32 pm |
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Acts 8:14-17 – Here we see the apostles going out and laying hands on believers so that they will receive the Holy Spirit. This echoes today’s sacrament of Confirmation, and the fact that the apostles went and laid hands personally, rather than just any believer doing it, also points to the priesthood, and its role.
14 Now when the apostles in Jerusalem heard that Samaria had accepted the word of God, they sent them Peter and John,
15 who went down and prayed for them, that they might receive the holy Spirit,
16 for it had not yet fallen upon any of them; they had only been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
17 Then they laid hands on them and they received the holy Spirit.
I Timothy 4:14 – The presbyters, or priests, laid hands on Timothy, presumably at his ordination. In their doing so, Timothy received a special gift from God, probably prophesy. The point is that, once again, it was the presbyters (priests) laying hands on him, not just any believer. This once again shows the importance and the role of the priesthood.
14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was conferred on you through the prophetic word with the imposition of hands of the presbyterate.
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"To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant" - Cardinal Newman
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Racaela Fultz
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2007 12:33 pm |
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I Timothy 4:6-16 – I LOVE this passage! It so well sums up the duties of the presbyter, or priest, and all that he is to do. Isn’t it beautiful? True, Timothy was actually a Bishop, not a presbyter, but the picture this passage paints so well shows that there was meant to be a priesthood, and a Church hierarchy.
6 If you will give these instructions to the brothers, you will be a good minister of Christ Jesus, nourished on the words of the faith and of the sound teaching you have followed.
7 Avoid profane and silly myths. Train yourself for devotion,
8 for, while physical training is of limited value, devotion is valuable in every respect, since it holds a promise of life both for the present and for the future.
9 This saying is trustworthy and deserves full acceptance.
10 For this we toil and struggle, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the savior of all, especially of those who believe.
11 Command and teach these things.
12 Let no one have contempt for your youth, but set an example for those who believe, in speech, conduct, love, faith, and purity.
13 Until I arrive, attend to the reading, exhortation, and teaching.
14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was conferred on you through the prophetic word with the imposition of hands of the presbyterate.
15 Be diligent in these matters, be absorbed in them, so that your progress may be evident to everyone.
16 Attend to yourself and to your teaching; persevere in both tasks, for by doing so you will save both yourself and those who listen to you.
Yes, that was a lot of scripture to throw out there. But isn’t it amazing what we see when we read the Bible with open eyes, rather than through protestant lenses? I hope this helps.
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"To be deep in history is to cease to be protestant" - Cardinal Newman
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2007 03:23 pm |
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| Racaela, I think you are a catholic, you just haven't officially been accepted into the church yet!
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Racaela Fultz
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Posted: Fri Aug 10th, 2007 03:37 pm |
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On Wednesday I'm meeting with the priest at the parish by my university to talk about my situation and RCIA...
Last edited on Fri Aug 10th, 2007 03:38 pm by Racaela Fultz
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susiedear
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Posted: Sun Aug 26th, 2007 05:22 am |
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My goodness, dear Racaela, how you have helped me! One of my friends is protesting the ordained priesthood; like so many, she believes that the priesthood of all believers is the new covenant model. I came to this topic because I need help forming my response, and you helped me a lot. Thank you!
Elizabeth
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But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. St. Augustine
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