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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Mon Apr 7th, 2008 05:28 am |
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I visited the other parish in town today as the schedule worked better: Mass at 11:30, lunch downtown, and then a farewell reception for the priest from my parish. (Turns out the other parish was saying farewell to one of their priests at the exact same time. Weird...)
Anyway, a local news camera crew was there filming with the angle that there are not enough priests. What's going to happen here in Visalia is that the 2 large churches plus 2 more mission churches nearby will all be served by 3 priests. 20,000 Catholics: 3 priests: 16 weekend Masses. Pray for those men!
But what I observed at this other parish left me scratching my head and thinking, "No wonder!"
All of the altar servers were girls and all of the EM's were women.
How will young men ever get a taste of serving at the Lord's table???
Jill
Last edited on Mon Apr 7th, 2008 05:37 am by JillD
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
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Robert
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Posted: Mon Apr 7th, 2008 09:46 am |
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Hi Jill,
Serving Mass was once the exclusive domain of the Alter boy, now we see that the majority of the Alter servers are girls. Your observation concerning young boys / men serving is pretty much on course with what some critics of girl alter servers have stated. It has been said that the loss of exclusivity is the main reason why boys no longer want to serve.
It’s a simple fact that boys and girls of serving age normally do not mingle with each other very well, nor do the generally want to.
We have over 45 Alter Servers in our small parish of about 1800 (not all practicing) members. Of the 45 servers only 5-6 are boys. In fact my 12 year old girl is a server (and loves it). Out side of the boys only soccer club, the Alter servers form the largest youth group in the whole village. Also two of the 3 EMs are older woman; I’m no. 3 and implicitly male!
The girls do a great job and are very reliable as well as consciences. I for one would not like to miss them. On the other hand, the sad fact is that instead of becoming Alter Boys, most of the boys stop coming to Church after First communion and come back only shortly for Confirmation.
IMO the Church has dropped the ball by not recognizing the trend and not implemting other forms of getting young men interested in a vocation. I also think its to late as any attempt to form a boys only anything will lead to problems with the PC police.
Here is a good article: http://www.ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur19.htm
Last edited on Mon Apr 7th, 2008 09:53 am by Robert
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Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15)
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Ali
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| Location: | Ohio USA |
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Posted: Mon Apr 7th, 2008 12:09 pm |
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That, and then there is our priest who told a young man in my dd's class that if he became a priest then he wouldn't be able to get married and have children. The boy expressed an interest in the vocation and was effectively shot down by Father. His mom, who overheard the conversation, was flabbergasted. 
I do tend to agree with you, and didn't encourage my dd to become a server. We did join a Little Flower girls group as a sort of alternative. We need to help our girls grow into young ladies of the Faith. Meaning girls should be encouraged in the vocations available to women in our church. Most important being, family. She is so not nun material  This is a soapbox issue for me 
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Apr 7th, 2008 03:12 pm |
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Look at those parishes where vocations are on the rise and you'll see an active effort to cultivate them. My diocese does have (separate) clubs for both young men and young women who are interested in the priesthood or religious life. We also have a bishop who insists on a solid liturgy and fidelity to the Magisterium in catechesis, and who has started an apologetics program aimed at post-Confirmation kids. We also have an active Young Adult Ministry. And the number of seminarians we have currently studying is the highest it has ever been since our diocese was founded in 1978.
There are definitely promising signs. And the use of altar girls and women EMHCs is not really a sign of the problem. We don't let kids serve at the altar until fourth grade, and the boys and girls get along well together. The biggest problem is that they don't continue to serve into the upper grades because it's "not cool". I've been asked several times what's the upper age limit for altar servers and my answer is 56 ... so far. That's how old I am, and I'm still serving at the altar.
We do have a problem recruiting men as EMHCs but it's primarily because we require them to wear a coat and tie, and most men don't want to do that or don't have them. A coat can be very uncomfortable on a hot summer day in Louisiana!
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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rbo4u2
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| Joined: | Tue Jan 16th, 2007 |
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Posted: Mon Apr 7th, 2008 04:10 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: A coat can be very uncomfortable on a hot summer day in Louisiana!
Shoot, even just a pair of shorts can feel hot down there in the middle of August. But your B-52 size skeeters prevent me from going any further. And garlic and awnyawns (onions for those west of the Mississip.) mess my stomach up fierce if I eat too many...let alone scare away the vampires and my friends. I know, I know...
I'm curious though...the more I follow the church the more questions I have. I didn't know that a parish priest was different from an "order" priest. And I know that you have priests whose vocations are evangelistic, like Fr. Corapi. With all the shortage, does Rome reassign some of these "other" priests to be parish priests? We had a priest leave a large parish near us because he didn't feel called to the IVE order which runs the Our Lady of Peace Shrine here. He decided to be a parish priest in the Oakland Diocese. Is there a shortage of "parish" priests as opposed to all the other "order" and "vocational" priests. Forgive my ignorance on these terms, but I was just curious.
Thanks
Rich
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Apr 7th, 2008 04:21 pm |
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rbo4u2 wrote: I didn't know that a parish priest was different from an "order" priest. And I know that you have priests whose vocations are evangelistic, like Fr. Corapi.
A priest makes an annual pledge of obedience to his bishop or abbot or order, depending on the nature of his priestly vocation. In addition, members of religious orders take vows of chastity, poverty, and obedience.
A priest who is a member of a religious order is assigned by his order. His assignment may be as a teacher, or missionary, or even as a parish priest. He does not receive a salary but rather an "allowance" to cover his expenses. He may not own anything; everything belongs to the order, although he may be allowed the use of items for his ministry, comfort, or convenience. A nun I knew rather well received a gift, and she literally turned it over to her mother superior, who then gave it back to her with permission to keep it in her quarters. Different orders have different rules on how such things are handled, and it depends on whether the religious is living in community or alone, but everything in their possession technically belongs to the order (and by the way, they pay no taxes unless they have a secular job, like being a nurse).
A diocesan priest is employed by the diocese and is assigned normally to a parish, but some priests (with their bishop's permission) can have an independent apostolate. Fr. Frank Pavone and Fr. Corapi are examples, as is my former pastor who now works for Food for the Poor and travels around the country raising money and conducting missions. He is still a priest of our diocese, however, and the bishop could recall him at any time and assign him back to a parish. Diocesan priests draw a salary, own their own cars, and have to be concerned about benefits and retirement. Parish priests typically have housing provided by the parish along with housekeeping and living expenses, and may receive a car allowance as well, or use of a parish vehicle.
A priest who has difficulties with his bishop can also request that he be permitted to align himself ("incardinate" is the technical term) with another diocese, requiring the permission of his bishop and the new bishop as well. A religious priest will sometimes seek permission to incardinate with a diocese where he was previously assigned if his superiors wish him to transfer to another ministry or perhaps to a missionary country. Sometimes a religious order will no longer be able to staff a parish and will withdraw their priests, in which case one or more of the priests may wish to stay with the diocese. Such permissions are routinely given but are sometimes denied if requested for the wrong reasons.
Last edited on Mon Apr 7th, 2008 04:28 pm by CajunRick
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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BeProf
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Posted: Mon Apr 7th, 2008 06:50 pm |
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CajunRick wrote:A priest who has difficulties with his bishop can also request that he be permitted to align himself ("incardinate" is the technical term) with another diocese, requiring the permission of his bishop and the new bishop as well.
I thought transferring was generally called "excardination" and "incardination" was generally used to refer to a new priest coming into diocese. Technically the two terms are both correct, depending on one's perspective... when a priest transfers he excardinates from one diocese and incardinates into another.
I always liked that term. It means "unhinged" in Latin. As in, "When so-an-so does that, I get so mad... I find myself coming excardinated."Last edited on Mon Apr 7th, 2008 06:51 pm by BeProf
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Apr 7th, 2008 07:11 pm |
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BeProf wrote: CajunRick wrote:A priest who has difficulties with his bishop can also request that he be permitted to align himself ("incardinate" is the technical term) with another diocese, requiring the permission of his bishop and the new bishop as well.
I thought transferring was generally called "excardination" and "incardination" was generally used to refer to a new priest coming into diocese. Technically the two terms are both correct, depending on one's perspective... when a priest transfers he excardinates from one diocese and incardinates into another.
I always liked that term. It means "unhinged" in Latin. As in, "When so-an-so does that, I get so mad... I find myself coming excardinated."
Different word forms. The root verbs would be "excardinate" (which I didn't use to avoid additional complications in the message) and "incardinate" but the acts would be excardination and incardination, respectively. In other words, to parse my statement above, he "incardinates" himself to his bishop through the process of "incardination" which takes place after he has "excardinated" from his prior bishop.
Canonical English 101.....
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Mon Apr 7th, 2008 07:30 pm |
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That was a good article, Robert. I dunno.... Intuitively, it makes sense to me for the church to avail itself of the opportunity to begin to train young men to understand the Mass and to increase their love for it. Our parish uses a lot of grown men, like you, Rick, and it's wonderful to see. I would think that they are role models for the young men/boys in the congregation. What good does it do to have women serving at the altar? I would think it could have the potential of raising the decibel level of those women who are screaming to have the priesthood available to them.
In the Protestant world, women serve in the Altar Guild, keeping the vestments clean and ironed and the sanctuary area put together. A behind-the-scenes role which seems very good to me.
I wonder, were you to ask, how many priests served as altar boys, what percentage of them, that is??
We HAVE to get priests somewhere! Our 3 are going to burn out. I can't imagine being responsible for 6000+ Catholics myself. And it's not as if an underlying bureaucracy exists to help with the load. I don't understand how it's going to work; it seems impossible!
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
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mrsbmoo
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 01:29 am |
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| Our area is in a similar situation with one priest retiring and the remaining ones having to divide up the parishes. Everyone will have at least 2. Unlike some other places, our altar servers are primarily boys. My best guess would be 3 to 1 in favor of boys. Our EMs are about equally divided between men and women. As Rick said I have seen grown men act as altar servers when needed, such as the young person not showing up. I have also heard that parents are biggest obstacle to young people entering the religious life.
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Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 10 months and 17
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Free
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 10:49 am |
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From what I'm told about our diocese, seminarians disappeared during the time of the previous bishop, who was very liberal in his theology. During the first years of his service, several young men specifically came here from other dioceses to be priests under him. But as the years went by, no others came on board. Our parishes dwindled in numbers as people went elsewhere to look for orthodox preaching and practice, and many quit attending church at all. Parishes were combined, schools closed, and the priests who remained were the ones that were liberal in outlook, and the faithful continued to "bleed" out of the churches, reducing the operating funds of the parishes.
Three or four years ago, a new bishop was installed over our diocese. He is slowly implementing orthodox practices, and has reduced some of the outrageous preaching (such as having people pray the Our Father by saying "Our Father and Mother"), although, as I've said in other threads, our priest, at least, is a long way from "cured" of his liberalism. The best news of all is that young men are returning to the seminary, with over 20 taking instruction, and with 5 of them to become priests later this year!
Jill, I think you may need a new bishop in your diocese. I have no idea how this can come about, but it seems to me that it will be the remedy for your problem of too few priests.
By the way, I've taken a break from the homilies our priest preaches and I've been going to masses at other churches in the area. I've found a country church about 10 miles from me that I like very much, and it's still in the same diocese. We actually kneel during the consecration! We actually confess our sins as a corporate body! And the two homilies I've heard were both based around Jesus Christ, straight out of the Gospels! No mention of Buddha, gurus, ashrams, and mantras! Can you hear me breathing a prayerful sigh of relief?
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JillD
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 02:37 pm |
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Jane, I don't know a lot about the 3 priests who will serve our "Catholic Church of Visalia," but I think I'd rather have 3 orthodox priests than 8 who are like what you described. That's terrible! Can it be fixed, or must the Church wait out priests like that? Eventually they "move on" and are hopefully replaced by priests who are faithful.
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Apr 8th, 2008 04:02 pm |
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JillD wrote: Jane, I don't know a lot about the 3 priests who will serve our "Catholic Church of Visalia," but I think I'd rather have 3 orthodox priests than 8 who are like what you described. That's terrible! Can it be fixed, or must the Church wait out priests like that? Eventually they "move on" and are hopefully replaced by priests who are faithful.
It has taken generations to get where we are today, and it will take generations to correct the problem completely. More orthodox bishops are being appointed; they in turn will provide more orthodox teaching in seminaries, which will provide us with a new generation of more orthodox priests.
Bishops are required to submit their retirement to the pope when they reach age 75 and it is up to the Holy Father to accept it at that point or not. It is rare for a bishop to retire prior to age 75 unless he has serious health issues. When the Holy Father deems a bishop unsatisfactory, he will often name a "coadjutor" bishop, who is an auxiliary bishop with the right of succession. In other words, on the death or retirement of the ordinary, the coadjutor automatically becomes bishop. In the mean time, he participates in the process of running the diocese. There are many other reasons for the appointment of a coadjutor, but one definite reason is to begin the process of transitioning the diocese to a more orthodox footing. When he takes over the diocese he will already have the knowledge of problem areas and be familiar with the priests and laity, so he can "hit the ground running".
Coadjutors are also often named when a bishop has a health issue that could result in a sudden death or debilitating illness, or in a number of other circumstances, so I don't want to imply that every coadjutor is named because the pope doesn't like the bishop. But in a large diocese with problems (financial, spiritual, or otherwise), a coadjutor is a good step that can avoid years of indecision.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Robert
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 09:52 am |
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I wonder, were you to ask, how many priests served as altar boys, what percentage of them, that is??
The best news of all is that young men are returning to the seminary
My Bishop, now the head of the German Bishop’s Conference, made a statement in opposition to those who believe that Celibacy is the cause for the lack of Priestly Vocations.
BTW: Before he became Archbishop of Freiburg, he was the head of personnel here.
He stated that the number of Priestly Vocations was “always” in proportion to the number of young men active in the church. This is especially true in relation to their participation in Holy Mass.
So as the total number of practicing Catholics has decreased dramatically in the past 40 years, so the number of Vocations. Interestingly enough, the percentile of Vocations to the number of practicing young men is now higher than it ever was.
I know, I know…never trust a statistic you haven’t adulterated yourself. BUT on the other hand, could it be that we are becoming a Church of the truly believing few as opposed to the Church of the traditionally dutiful many. This would be on line with one of (I think) Card. Ratzinger’s statements years ago. “The Church of the future will be a Church of believers or it will not be.”
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Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15)
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ASimpleSinner
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Posted: Mon Apr 28th, 2008 04:49 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: Look at those parishes where vocations are on the rise and you'll see an active effort to cultivate them. My diocese does have (separate) clubs for both young men and young women who are interested in the priesthood or religious life. We also have a bishop who insists on a solid liturgy and fidelity to the Magisterium in catechesis, and who has started an apologetics program aimed at post-Confirmation kids. We also have an active Young Adult Ministry. And the number of seminarians we have currently studying is the highest it has ever been since our diocese was founded in 1978.
There are definitely promising signs. And the use of altar girls and women EMHCs is not really a sign of the problem. We don't let kids serve at the altar until fourth grade, and the boys and girls get along well together. The biggest problem is that they don't continue to serve into the upper grades because it's "not cool". I've been asked several times what's the upper age limit for altar servers and my answer is 56 ... so far. That's how old I am, and I'm still serving at the altar.
We do have a problem recruiting men as EMHCs but it's primarily because we require them to wear a coat and tie, and most men don't want to do that or don't have them. A coat can be very uncomfortable on a hot summer day in Louisiana!
In my neck of the woods the two parishes that have sent 20+ men and women into priestly and religious life have altar boys exclusively.
On a personal level, the month my kid sister became an altar girl (in the first wave of altar-girls back in the 80s), I quit.
I know many approach this issue from the perspective of "something for the girls to be able to do to - they love it" but frankly, the girls are going to be doing everything else eventually - looking at most lay run activities in parishes where I have been involved, outside of the KofC, it is all-female run.
The boys need something for them, and they need to understand that their moms and sisters won't do "all the church stuff".... This was the role boys had... It was "their" thing - how young men had an opportunity for their service - where they fit in.
Now boys are being taught by female teachers, going to Mass where the servers are girls, the music ministers are often women signing songs difficult for men to sign, eucharistic minsters are more and more female dominated and as often as not women are the lectors... They or several of their friends are raised by single moms...
We have displaced a whole demographic of young men who used to have their thing. This is not good.
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Robert
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Posted: Mon Apr 28th, 2008 07:05 pm |
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Where have all the (young) men gone, long time passing...
I find it almost impossible to motivate young men and young fathers to do about anything outside of attending mass on high feast days (with mom or wife) or helping with the Church fundraiser "Bierfest".
Just about everything is done by the gals, and if you have ever been the only male in a group of 20 females, you know how difficult it can be to be a participant and not just an onlooker. Except of course you're Father.
The men always have an excuse like "I got to work", etc. I have a 10 hour workday, but always find time for church, study, prayer, and most of all family. Why? Because we "do Church" as a family.
The German word for Alter Server is "Ministrant" and they call themselves "Minis" so you don't have to use inclusive language. Nevertheless the "ober Mini" is a Girl, as well as the vice-ober-Mini.
The few boys get to carry the procession Cross because its heavy 
BTW: we do organize a men's pilgramige once a year which is very popular. ONLY MEN! We always have Holy Mass at one of the churches like Altoetting, or sim. And guess who gets to serve Mass? Me, at 53 y.o.! And I love it!
Last edited on Mon Apr 28th, 2008 07:11 pm by Robert
____________________
Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15)
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