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brian
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| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Wed Jan 9th, 2008 04:04 pm |
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I have heard of priests declaring a prsons sins forgiven at the end of their lives if they se them when dying. I heard, for instance, that a famous priest in New York visited the destruction of 9-11 and said certain prayers of absolution for those who may be dying there or had just died.
There was a neat film I saw on EWTN about the priesthood called 'Fishers of Men' It showed a dramatic telling of a person who lay in the street about to die after a car crash and a priest got out from his car and anointed him and declared that his sins were forgiven.
I assume this sort of thing happens. But is this this forgiveness granted automatically? The person may not be a practicing Catholic or may not have been repentant about their sins in any way. It seems if we mortaly sin while fully alive, we need to go to confession to deal with it and we need to honestly confess it. But if someones life is ending, do these requirements go away because of the urgency? Can a priest just forgive someone's sins despite if they confess and are repentant or not?
Does this mean that if someone happens to die with a pruest around will go to heaven whereas if that same person died without a priest around he may not? Is the priests absolution still contingent upon God's final judgment of the matter, or since the priest has the authority to forgive sins, does that mean that sins are forgiven period?
I am glad we have a way to prepare souls for death and to properly entrust them to God in prayer, but I just wonder about the consistency with other parts of our theology, if a person can simply be declared forgiven at the end regardless of what their intentions and status of belief in God is.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu Jan 10th, 2008 12:50 am |
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brian wrote: Can a priest just forgive someone's sins despite if they confess and are repentant or not?
The Anointing of the Sick is one of the most explicit sacraments in scripture. It's scriptural basis is explained in the Catechism:
1510 However, the apostolic Church has its own rite for the sick, attested to by St. James: "Is any among you sick? Let him call for the elders [presbyters] of the Church and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer of faith will save the sick man, and the Lord will raise him up; and if he has committed sins, he will be forgiven" (James 5:14-15). Tradition has recognized in this rite one of the seven sacraments.
The sacrament pre-supposes belief, repentanceand the desire to confess, and carries with it the obligation to confess if that is possible or becomes possible. A priest who anoints the sick will offer to hear their confession first if they are capable of confessing, but it is not withheld from those who are unconscious, demented, or otherwise incapable of confession (such as those under constant medical surveillance). In my experience, it can be very difficult to ask family members to leave the room if a person is extremely close to taking his last breath.
We also remember that Jesus forgave the sick on the basis of their faith, not their confession. The woman with a hemorrhage was healed merely by touching Jesus' cloak. Peter healed the blind beggar who may have never even heard of Christ. God wants to forgive the sick, especially those who have suffered, because they are united to Christ in their suffering. As the Catechism points out, Jesus gave so much preference to the sick that he promised eternal damnation to those who failed to visit the sick (Matthew 25:31-46).
When the sick person is not at the point of death, the Anointing of the Sick is preceeded by confession and followed by Eucharist. At the point of death, if the sick person is capable of receiving Eucharist, the anointing is followed by the Precious Body or Blood of our Savior in the form of Viaticum, "food for the journey", the manna from heaven that provides spiritual nourishment for the path ahead. When possible and necessary, a drop of the Precious Blood may be given, or a very tiny piece of the Precious Body, even by way of a feeding tube. I have also seen priests touch the Eucharist to the sick person's forehead and then consume the host on their his behalf if the person was incapable of receiving on his own.
The Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick is covered in the Catechism from 1499-1532.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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brian
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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 04:36 am |
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I think my main question is what exactly happens if the person (well as much as our theology can say, and maybe it can not since onyly God knows all things) is not conscious, did not even believe in God really and was not sorry for their sin. They fell away from the church, and then the priest comes and gives them the sacraments at the end of life. Is the person forgiven because the priest declares it, or is that really a matter between the dying person and God. Meaning, can a priest tell someone that their sins are forgiven and be wrong, as in the case of a person who say withholds something in a confession?
Brian
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 11:36 am |
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brian wrote: I think my main question is what exactly happens if the person (well as much as our theology can say, and maybe it can not since onyly God knows all things) is not conscious, did not even believe in God really and was not sorry for their sin.
And my answer was "The sacrament pre-supposes belief, repentance and the desire to confess". If there is no belief and no repentance, there is no forgiveness.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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brian
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 05:34 pm |
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I did read your answer, but I did not necessarily know what conclusion it was meant to have drawn me to. Meaning, I understood that the priest could administer the sacrament presupposing belief and repentance, but i did not know what that meant would happen when he had administered the sacrament when belief and repentance were not there. I figured that maybe his words were so powerful because Jesus gave priests the ability to forgive sins, that even if they 'made a mistake' that somehow there was nothing that God could change about it (of course God can gdp whatever hHe wills, but maybe He willed it to be this way) because He gives the priest that authority.
I did not know that presupposing means that what takes place is less legitimate if what is being pressuposed is not true. I just thought it had to do with why they went ahead and did it and didn't realize you were saying it was a condition necessary for the efficacy. Sorry for not understanding you if you had already answered. I'm not always as intelligent as I'd like to be.Brian
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EMarshallBuckles
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | Rockville (Near Richmond), Virginia USA |
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| First Name: | Marshall | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian Church,Episcopal Church,Baptist denomination,learning about RCC |
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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 07:33 pm |
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| Back in the '70s, while in college, I worked as a nurses aide in a hospital in my hometown. When I saw people about to die, as I did a number of times, or when I had to prepare the body of someone who had died for the morgue or pick up by a mortician, I always silently offered up a prayer for them asking God to have mercy upon them and, if possible, to receive their soul into His care. Of course, I am not a priest or minister, however, I felt that was something appropriate for me to do especially since most of the patients I cared for were Protestants although we did have a few Roman Catholics. I could not just impersonally abandon them to their fate without some final attempt to pray for them. When I hear of someone's death or read an obituary, I still offer up prayers for them. One thing that I have loved about the Roman Catholic Church and the Anglican Communion is that they do pray for those who are immediately about to die and who have died. Frankly, if I was about to die or had died, I would hope that a Minister or Priest who believed in doing so or a Christian layperson who believed in doing so might offer up a prayer for my poor soul. And if a Priest would be willing to give me Extreme Unction, I would be extremely grateful. Having also been a hospital patient three times, since 1997, believe me, I know the comfort of prayer and the great urge to frequently pray in such a situation.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Jan 15th, 2008 08:23 pm |
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brian wrote: I just thought it had to do with why they went ahead and did it and didn't realize you were saying it was a condition necessary for the efficacy.
The presumption for any sacrament is that the recipient desires it and is in a proper condition to receive it. A priest cannot walk down the street absolving the sins of all he meets. Absolution will not be effective, for example, for the unbaptized and unrepentent. Similarly, the graces of the Eucharist are not effective for the unbaptized and those in a state of mortal sin.
When a priest administers baptism and/or anointing on an unconscious individual, it isautomatically conditioned on their desire to receive the sacrament and their repentence. Should you encounter an accident victim who is unconscious and in danger of death, you should baptize them with water and the words, "If you have not previously been baptized and desire baptism, I baptize you..." But if you don't say the words, the meaning is implied. You say the words for the benefit of the person who may be able to hear you. You should then follow with a good Act of Contrition, again in the hopes that the person can hear you and follow what you are saying.
If they are unrepentant it does no harm, but it also does no good. We can only commend them to God's mercy with our prayers. But at least we can try.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Jackie
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| Location: | Jersey Shore, New Jersey USA |
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Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2008 12:08 am |
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Whenever I see an ambulance speeding by, I always utter a prayer. (Ambulance, fire truck, EMS unit) It is not only for the person who needs the service but for those who attend them.
For the most part, when I see someone emotional for any reason I offer a prayer that God might bring them healing, comfort or peace. And a prayer when I see a funeral procession too!
I don't stop and wonder first if they are a Godly people. I just offer to God for them a prayer, with confidence that He hears me. For their sake. Ya know what I mean? I think the Priest would do the same thing.
And I agree with Marshall that if it were me, the prayers, sacrament and comfort of strangers could only aid me and I would be thankful for it even if I were unawares.
And who, in the name of all that is Good, would not want these things in their final moments?!
May a host of Heavenly Angels guard you and keep you in perfect peace as we await the Grace of God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ who meets the needs of our mind, bodies and spirit.
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