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JillD
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 678 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 04:35 pm |
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My friend, Cindy, sent me a copy of Catholic Answers' new publication "Wolves in Sheeps Clothing" which describes many of the most well-known groups and individuals who are in a state of dissent with the Church. I just got it on Friday. Then a day later, lying awake in the middle of the night, I turned on that crazy radio program "Coast to Coast" with Art Bell. Usually, it's silly stuff, like UFO's and shadow people. But last night, he had as a guest a representative of one of those dissenting groups, Michael Dimond. What a strange coincidence I felt that was!
One of Br. Dimond's complaints is that the Words of Institution in the Mass are not what the words are in the Bible, particularly, the change from "for many" to "for all" when the wine is consecrated.
What is the history of this change? Was it changed from 'many' to 'all'? If so, why?
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5080 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Sun May 6th, 2007 06:45 pm |
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JillD wrote: One of Br. Dimond's complaints is that the Words of Institution in the Mass are not what the words are in the Bible, particularly, the change from "for many" to "for all" when the wine is consecrated.
What is the history of this change? Was it changed from 'many' to 'all'? If so, why?
The "official" (Latin) liturgy uses the phrase "for many". When it was translated into English, it was mistranslated "for all". As we have discussed in other threads, the initial translation was supposed to be temporary; it has been in place much longer than anyone anticipated. A new translation is currently in progress, and it will return the phrase to "for many".
Other changes will take place as well, to make the English translation of the mass conform more closely to the Latin. For example, the Latin "Dominus vobiscum" is translated properly, "The Lord be with you," while the response "Et cum spiritu tuo" is translated "and also with you" but should be "and with your spirit". That also will be corrected. The Latin has not changed, but the English translation will change significantly.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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brian
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 746 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 01:22 am |
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They actually have not decided what it will be translated to according to an article someone sent me. It will indeed be changed, but it could be changed to somethig like 'for the many' or 'for the multitude' but it is quite likey it will be changed to 'to the many'
It was made this way in the 1960's in an atempt (Comme le Prevoit was a document that encouraged this) to make the liturgy more easy to understand and the goal was to translate the mass not necessarily accurately as possible but as easy to understand as possible. In retrospect the idea of making the mass as easily accessible to as many people as possible though being a noble idea did result in some potentially poor translations of sacred texts, but things will be ironed out and the mass as it is is still completely valid and the meanings of the phrases are pretty much in tact. In 2001 a document entitled Liturgiam Authenticam was released that mandated translations be done seeking more accuracy and not allowing freedom for additions subtractions or paraphrases. Things just take time.
Brian
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