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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 679 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Sun Jun 24th, 2007 09:25 pm |
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I've visited a couple of Catholic Churches where, during the Offering, men holding baskets attached to long poles send them down the rows to receive the offerings. It looks so odd to me! And sort of dangerous, too. Why do they do that over simply passing a plate?
Jill
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5086 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Sun Jun 24th, 2007 09:38 pm |
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JillD wrote: I've visited a couple of Catholic Churches where, during the Offering, men holding baskets attached to long poles send them down the rows to receive the offerings. It looks so odd to me! And sort of dangerous, too. Why do they do that over simply passing a plate?
I've seen both, and I have no idea how either practice began. Sorry. Maybe someone else will know.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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maryjean
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| Joined: | Sat Feb 24th, 2007 |
| Location: | York County, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 36 |
| First Name: | Jean | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian to non-practicing to Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Jun 24th, 2007 10:12 pm |
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I don't know the history, but they've been around a long time. I remember seeing some in a closet at the Presbyterian church we went to when I was a child. And out of curiosity, I did a Google search, and they're still available for sale at a couple of 'church supply' websites.
Psalm 4
jean
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jean
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BettyBoopToo
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
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| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Jun 24th, 2007 11:05 pm |
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JillD wrote: I've visited a couple of Catholic Churches where, during the Offering, men holding baskets attached to long poles send them down the rows to receive the offerings. It looks so odd to me! And sort of dangerous, too. Why do they do that over simply passing a plate?
Jill
Jill
I have no idea what the history of the baskets are, but at our parish they are used when the crowd is smaller (like Sat Vigil mass) and the pews have less people. The ushers are the only one's that hold them and they are at each end of the pew, they reach out to each person holding up their envelope, so you can just drop your envelope in the basket. We don't pass these baskets, the ushers go to where the persons wanting to give are sitting. I can see where they could be awkward and possibly dangerous if we passed them down the pews from person to person though.
When the parish is fuller like on Sunday's masses they use the baskets without handles and pass them down the pew, person to person. Maybe your parish does not have the baskets without handles for some reason?
Betty
Betty
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Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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mg57
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Tolland County, Connecticut USA |
| Posts: | 169 |
| First Name: | mg57 | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Infant Baptised Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Jun 25th, 2007 12:12 am |
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I serve in the Usher / Greeter Hospitality ministry at our parish. (A brief history and sample guidelines can be found here) -http://www.sainttims.org/Minister%20of%20Hospitality%20Handbook%20-%202004%20-%20New.htm
Why do we use the long-handled baskets instead of passing "the plate" ? I hope the answer can be found within the following.
The ministry of ushers is the oldest lay ministry in the Catholic Church. The ushers of today have descended from a long line of people of God who have gone before them. In the Old Testament and during the time of Christ, the doorkeepers of the temple numbered in the hundreds and were the forerunners of today's ushers.
The more immediate ancestors of ushers are to be found in the clerical order of porter (ostiarius, or doorkeeper), instituted in the third century A.D. In those early centuries, it was the duty of porters or ushers to guard the door of the church against any intruders who might disturb the service. They also shared with their modern counterparts responsibility for the maintenance of religious behavior (decorum) during divine worship. By the time the porters' duties came to be stated, they were specified as:
1. To ring the bells
2. To open the church and the sacristy
3. To open the book for the preacher
In 1972, Pope Paul VI formally abolished the order of porter. The important task of ushering has been given over to the laity. They may not ring bells, but the must become in their persons a joyous invitation to worship. Even without keys, they are charged with becoming an "open door" to holy fellowship.
At many Protestant services, the "plate" or basket is passed one to another usually after the sermon and during a hymn.
During the Mass, the Offeratory collection ( presentation / preparation of gifts) occurs after the Creed and General Intercessions, and coincides, during a brief Hymn, with the Preparation of the Altar and Gifts.
So, while we often call it a "collection", it is really a part of the presentation of the gifts, - a return of a portion of what God has given us, and is directly or indirectly referred to in the Preface before the Eucharistic Prayer. So using the Ushers with baskets during the Offeratory has several dimensions, not the least of which is a coordination of the various liturgical actions among / between the celebrant and congregation.
Quite a lot goes on at Mass, and for me, fully participating in, is the fastest most engaging hour of the week.
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JillD
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 679 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Mon Jun 25th, 2007 01:01 am |
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BettyBoopToo wrote:
When the parish is fuller like on Sunday's masses they use the baskets without handles and pass them down the pew, person to person. Maybe your parish does not have the baskets without handles for some reason?
I'm glad my parish does not use the long-handled baskets, and I do realize that only the ushers use them. It would really be something to see if anything different were tried! I guess if the pews are sparsely populated, collecting from a person sitting in the middle is easier with the long handle. Other than that, though, they always look awkward and dangerous to me. Maybe, centuries ago, pews used to be REALLY long, or maybe people would pilfer from the plate... I'm just trying to imagine a situation in which they would be more appropriate than a plate....
mg57 - thanks for the info, but I didn't see in it an explanation for why the long-handled baskets are used as opposed to passing a plate. My parish uses big metal plates, shaped like a giant soup bowl really, which every few rows is emptied into a larger basket carried along with the ushers, so it's apparently not a Catholic vs. Protestant difference.
Has anyone ever been hit by the long-handled basket? (And does it have another name????)
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
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Annie
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| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Jun 25th, 2007 10:36 am |
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| These baskets are seen as most appropriate for use during sparsely attended church services when most people are sitting on the aisles, leaving a gap in the middle of the pew. The handled basket eliminates the people having to get up to take the offering plate down the pew and possibly dropping it.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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JillD
Member
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
| Posts: | 679 |
| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Mon Jun 25th, 2007 12:49 pm |
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Annie wrote: These baskets are seen as most appropriate for use during sparsely attended church services when most people are sitting on the aisles, leaving a gap in the middle of the pew. The handled basket eliminates the people having to get up to take the offering plate down the pew and possibly dropping it.
If there are only people on the aisles, why pass the plate at all? I would think that would be easier than holding a long-handled basket in front of each aisle-sitter. Usually there are two plates per side, so if there is no one to pass to, the plate could just be held in front of the person to allow the offering and then moved to the next person. No passing.
I guess I'm making much of nothing, but I was initially just curious about why they were used. I'm still not sure I get it...
Jill
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
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Annie
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Posted: Mon Jun 25th, 2007 02:36 pm |
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It's to eliminate passing completely. It also makes it easier for somebody to not put something in undetected.
I didn't mean there is only one person on the aisle, i mean there is a gap in the middle which causes people to have to get up to move the plate along.
Last edited on Mon Jun 25th, 2007 02:37 pm by Annie
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Annie
Ora et labora
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mg57
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Posted: Mon Jun 25th, 2007 03:05 pm |
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Hi Jill -
Yeah, I guess my reply was a bit vague, .... :?
A few varied thoughts, -
1. If the basket is in the Usher's hands, the temptation to take anything out would be minimized. This was never an issue with us, but certainly a possibility.
2. Long handled baskets have been used in our parish, to my knowledge, since it's inception in 1905, which of course pre-dates Pope Paul VI's changes concerning Ushers after Vatican II.
3. We've never hit anyone to my knowledge, - there's a period of training involved. Like anything else, the more one practices, the better one gets, and can usually anticipate peripherally people that aren't paying attention, ie., looking our way, that might move unpredictably in relation to what we're trying to do, and avoid them by slowing down or pausing.
4. We call them "long handled baskets", ( BTW, we also have short handled baskets  ).
5. We believe that having Ushers conduct the offeratory collection is also less distracting to the congregation.
6. My example contrasting the collection in a Protestant church vs. Catholic was only to help illustrate the larger variety of elements present at a given time which come into play during the liturgy.
7. While efficiency is certainly a less overall important factor, in our experience we find that it is just that, - more efficient and again, less distracting.
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BettyBoopToo
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
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| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jun 26th, 2007 02:19 pm |
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Jill
For someone like myself, with having trouble with my hands at times, and also we have an offitory hym that I need the hymnal to sing, It's really much easier for me when they use the baskets with handles.
Otherwise, I'm fumbling with the Hymnal, my envelope and a basket. Not that it cannot be done and I do set the book down when they pass a basket. Father has really been on a teaching spree and has asked us all to fully participate in the mass, I've taken it that he wants everyone to sing every song that's on the board & not just the ones I or someone else wants to. so I can really see where the handled basket are coming in handy.
We have several ushers at each weekend service and I'm also wondering if I were toward the middle to back, if they are passing a basket. I sit clear up front with the disabled and elderly people and they may just use them to help us out too.
My thoughts are only observations, so I think MG has all the far better answers than I have.
GB
Betty
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Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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kimdyuma
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
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Posted: Tue Jun 26th, 2007 02:33 pm |
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| This is kind of silly- but I prefer the long handled baskets because I usually give a cheque every pay day so on the "off Sunday" I don't put anything in- at our old epis. church on of the fellows who always passed the plates is mildly retarded and on the off weeks he made an issue of why we weren't putting anything in the plate. It drove me nuts- I know that I could just budget differently but we have always sat down in front of the kids and written a cheque to the church then our savings then on to bills- Now of course we split the total between 3 churches- mine, their new church and our old church because as long as our daughter still attends their youth group we feel that we should continue to support them.
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Annie
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| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 734 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jun 26th, 2007 03:48 pm |
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kimdyuma wrote: This is kind of silly- ...he made an issue of why we weren't putting anything in the plate. It drove me nuts-
It isn't silly at all, it's unprofessional of the minister to allow somebody to hassle you at the offering.
I prefer to mail in my checks and avoid the issue entirely.
Other churches have debit programs and such. My friend and I had a joke about putting turnstiles on the pews and to get in you swipe your credit card to open the turnstile and an electronic voice says, creakily, "The Lord be with you. Next."
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Annie
Ora et labora
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Jun 26th, 2007 10:03 pm |
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Annie wrote: I prefer to mail in my checks and avoid the issue entirely.
I have mine sent on an automatic bank draft. I haven't actually written a check in months.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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