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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2007 02:08 pm |
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This is how the Mass was celebrated before, during, and after Vatican Council II, until 1970. If the passage to the new rite has created divisions and ruptures among the faithful, the fault is partly that of the Church: a fault which the pope now means to remedy
by Sandro Magister
ROMA, July 7, 2007 – The highly anticipated papal “motu proprio” on the rite of the Mass prior to the reform of 1970 was made public today, together with a letter of explanation from Benedict XVI to the bishops.
The two documents were sent a few days earlier, in secret, to all the presidents of the episcopal conferences and to all the nuncios, who saw to sending them along to all the bishops of the world.
The “motu proprio” is in Latin, but the Vatican has made “unofficial” versions available in various languages. It will come into effect on September 14, 2007.
The new rules fixed by Benedict XVI widen the permission to celebrate the Mass according to the liturgical books published by John XXIII in 1962, while leaving in place as the “ordinary” form of celebration in the Catholic churches the one established by Paul VI in 1970.
The Mass according to the liturgical books of 1962 is celebrated in Latin, but with the option of reading the Gospel and the other readings in modern languages. Nothing is said in the 1962 missal about the orientation of the altar and the celebrant, whether these should face the people or not.
The two forms of the Mass, the “ordinary” one of 1970 and the “extraordinary” one of 1962 follow slightly different calendars. The selections from the Gospel and the other readings also do not coincide. But such differences are not unusual in the Catholic liturgy. The Ambrosian rite used in the archdiocese of Milan also has a its own calendar, lectionary, and ritual. For example, Advent begins six Sundays before Christmas, instead of four, as in the Roman rite. The sign of peace is placed before the offertory, instead of before communion.
The missal of 1962, the only one authorized for those who wish to celebrate the Mass according to the ancient rite, does not contain the prayer “pro perfidis Judaeis” – which properly means: “for the Jews who do not believe [in Jesus Christ]” – nor other formulas that have today become objects of criticism, these having been modified already by John XXIII. Nor do these formulas exist in the baptismal ritual preceding Vatican Council II: this ritual, too, is authorized by the “motu proprio.”
In the accompanying letter, Benedict XVI asks the bishops to provide an evaluation after three years, in order to seek out solutions if “serious difficulties” surface.
The above article is reposted with permission from Chiesa.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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BodRod
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Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2007 02:57 pm |
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| Do you think the apparent effort to swing back toward the Latin Mass will slow down the number of converts per year we are currently enjoying in English speaking countries?
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2007 03:27 pm |
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BodRod wrote: Do you think the apparent effort to swing back toward the Latin Mass will slow down the number of converts per year we are currently enjoying in English speaking countries?
Honestly, no. I think many parishes will see an occasional Latin mass, and more parishes will offer a weekly Latin mass, but overwhelming "ordinary rite" will remain the Mass of Pope Paul VI.
Still, those communities that have longed for a return to the earlier liturgy will be able to use it, and I think that's a good thing. In the long run, that might even be attractive to some Anglicans and Orthodox, and might increase the number of converts.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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kimdyuma
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Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2007 05:16 pm |
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| Attractive to me anyhow
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BodRod
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Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2007 05:48 pm |
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Maybe, if they get a high school going here like they are talking, "they" will make classes in Latin available to us. Come to think about it however, I took 2 years of Spanish in HS and all I can say is "Hello", "Goodbye" and "Do you have a glass of milk?" Perhaps classes aren't the answer. 
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brian
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Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2007 05:48 pm |
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Will this make them slower to come out with a re translation of the mass of Paul VI. Because we have discussed that there are a few phrases that could be better translated and that they want to focus on adding some more sacred music and chant and latin...so in time will there also be a slightly updated ordinary mass that will be more traditional or updated in some ways? Or now that they have offered this will they feel off the hook to update the current mass? Any idea on when such and update may be coming?
Also, in an earlier thread we discussed that it was confusing to say who was excommunicated or not regarding the socety of Pius X and if it was only the leaders or the lay people...so this group still remains on the outside? Does this event figure to help btring them back? And are there members excomunicated or simply not in good astanding with the church if they continue to go to masses that are not approved by the church? For instance Mel Gibson is not excommunicated but if he were attending mass at an unapproved place he would need to go to confession to be officially reconciled with us?
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2007 06:27 pm |
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brian wrote: Will this make them slower to come out with a re translation of the mass of Paul VI.
No. The problem with the mass of Paul VI was with the English translation. The Latin is unchanged. ICEL rushed out the original English translation, and while some minor revisions were made, the promised "careful translation" never took place. This time, the objective is to get it right. Admittedly it should have taken place 30 years ago, but this will have no effect. The revision is in its final stages now, and is nearly complete. The most recent requests approved by the USCCB literally dealt with things like where commas should be placed, and the placement of words like "and".
The delay is caused by the desire to have one translation for all English-speaking countries, so if the US bishops request a change, it has to be submitted to the Vatican for approval, and then sent to the bishops' conferences in all the other countries. It's just a very complicated process. If it had been done in the first place, we wouldn't be discussing the "Kumbaya" masses of the last 30 years, and much of the experimentation and irreverence would never have taken place. This time they want to get it right.
If anything, it may speed the process a little, since Benedict XVI has indicated he would be willing to allow some blending of the 1970 and 1962 liturgies. While I doubt it will ever be done in a formal manner, we could see such things as an authorization of the Prayer to St. Michael the Archangel at the end of the 1970 liturgy. This is pure speculation on my part, but it could happen under the guidelines the Holy Father has suggested for the future. The Ecclesia Dei commission has been designated as the body that will make such decisions, no doubt under the watchful eye of the Holy Father.
Because we have discussed that there are a few phrases that could be better translated and that they want to focus on adding some more sacred music and chant and latin...so in time will there also be a slightly updated ordinary mass that will be more traditional or updated in some ways? Or now that they have offered this will they feel off the hook to update the current mass? Any idea on when such and update may be coming?
The "update" you are referring to is the retranslation. At this time, there have been no proposals to revise the Latin original of the Mass of Pope Paul VI, although, as I mentioned above, the Holy Father has left open the possibility that permission could be granted to "borrow" elements of the ordinary and extraordinary rites for use in the alternate rite. Instead of a prayer from the Mass of Pope Paul VI, one day you might hear the Confetior from the Mass of Pope John XXXIII. That is not currently permitted, but it may be soon. (I have read the text of the pope's motu proprio and the letters and comments, plus all the other articles and newsletters, but I haven't "studied" them yet, so if he did authorize any mixture of the two rites, I apologize for the oversight. I don't think it's happened yet, but I suspect it will.)
Also, in an earlier thread we discussed that it was confusing to say who was excommunicated or not regarding the socety of Pius X and if it was only the leaders or the lay people...so this group still remains on the outside?
The basic problem with the SSPX at this point is that they chose to ordain priests and bishops without authorization to do so. Those who performed the ordinations are excommunicated, and those who accepted ordination are excommunicated. In addition the leaders of the movement indicated that they believed Vatican II was invalid, and that the popes did not have the authority to revise the liturgy. There continued use of the 1962 missal was almost never the real issue. To my knowledge (which may indeed be incorrect), the lay members of SSPX have not been excommunicated, but they have in fact separated themselves from the Church by failure to attend valid liturgies.
While the motu proprio is definitely an olive branch being held out to them, they will still have to accept the authority of the Church, which they do not currently do. They will also have to submit to the local bishop, and indicate their willingness to celebrate mass under the ordinary rite as well as the extraordinary rite. Remember, under Canon Law, a bishop cannot ordain another bishop without permission of the Vatican, and a priest cannot celebrate mass without authorization of the local diocesan bishop. A priest who's permission to celebrate mass (his "faculties") have been removed or never granted cannot licitly celebrate a mass for the public. Those who attend such a mass have attended a valid mass because he is still a priest, but if they knowingly participate in an illicit mass, they themselves have sinned by violating the authority of the Church.
In other words, they have to accept Vatican II and the authority of the popes to revise the liturgy, as well as the authority of their local ordinary. . As for the faithful, they will have to confess that they have not been attending licit masses in order to completely reconcile with the Church, but that should not be a major hurdle.
For instance Mel Gibson is not excommunicated but if he were attending mass at an unapproved place he would need to go to confession to be officially reconciled with us?
Yes, but to the best of my knowledge, his chapel is authorized by the local diocesan bishop, so he is in good standing with the Church. I suspect he confesses frequently for the language that he uses, however.
The belief that Mel Gibson has ever been excommunicated or not in good standing with the Church comes from the fact that his father is (or at least was) a member of a schismatic group. Gibson himself is not (although he may have been in the past as a child in his parents' home and possibly even as an adult).
Last edited on Sat Jul 7th, 2007 11:59 pm by CajunRick
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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brian
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Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2007 10:20 pm |
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Thanks Rick. I want to make sure I get it right in case I ever say anything false about Gibson. I was under the impression He was with his father. Here are some reasons why and some other stuff I found.
During 2002-SEP, he revealed that he no longer believed in the Roman Catholic Church as an institution. He said: "I agree with everyone who says the Vatican is a wolf in sheep's clothing." 3 He lives in the parish served by the Roman Catholic church "Our Lady of Malibu." However, he has funded construction of his own traditionalist, independent church: the Church of the Holy Family, in the same area. The mass is conducted in Latin. 4 His church is allegedly not affiliated with any Roman Catholic diocese. "So, according to Church law, it’s schismatic, not a Catholic church at all....The Church’s Code of Canon Law defines schism--separation from the Church--as 'the refusal of submission to the Supreme Pontiff or of communion with the members of the Church subject to him'." 2
- 2."Actor's activism points to schism, author says," 2002, at: http://www.pangaeus.com/ (Essay is no longer online as of 2004-FEB)
- 3. "Mel Gibson's only daughter opts to be a nun," Sydney Morning Herald, 2002-SEP-15, at: http://www.smh.com.au/
- 4."Mel Gibson fuels old fires," Evangelical-Times.org, 2003-SEP, at: http://www.evangelical-times.org/
this next part is from wikipedia...i know it is not accurate all the time, but if he indeed had children confirmed by somebody who is not in union with the church seems to me that he would be a part of a group outside of the church.
Based on many of his positions, Gibson can be considered a traditionalist Roman Catholic. Gibson adheres firmly to the thesis of Sedevacantism which his own father, Hutton Gibson, defends in writings.In May, 2007 Mel Gibson flew to Hermosillo, Mexico, where he attended a Tridentine Mass during which grandchildren of his friends and two of his children received the sacrament of Confirmation, administered by Archbishop emeritus Carlos Quintero Arce.[38] The same Archbishop Arce consecrated Gibson's own, private, traditional Roman Catholic church of the Holy Family in Malibu in February, 2007.[39] Gibson believes Holy Orders administered according to the vernacularized, drastically revised Pontifical of Paul VI to be invalid, only accepting those administered in the pre-conciliar rites to be valid (as well as the Eastern Rites).[40]
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now I do not believe everything I read. Maybe this information is misquoted or mistaken or made up. Maybe there is confusion as to which groups enjoy union with Rome and which do not. Maybe his group has made amends. But it looks to me like he strongly sides with schismatic groups. Not that I wanted this to turn into a conversation about Mel Gibson, but it is sort of an example of something related to the topic at hand regarding the mass and which groups are with us and which are not and how we can bring them all back together hopefully. I have just wanted to understand the Gibson thing because it comes up once in a while and I donot know what to say. I hope the conversation of this thread will not lose focus but I wanted to seek clarification.
Brian
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2007 10:38 pm |
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brian wrote:but I wanted to seek clarification.
Brian, nothing you wrote indicates that Gibson is not in union with Rome. True, he said the Vatican is a "wolf in sheep's clothing". Many feel the same way about the Bush administration, but that doesn't mean they're not faithful Americans. I am free to be critical of how the pope or my bishop or pastor chooses to run things, but that doesn't mean I'm not Catholic.
The articles you cited also contain several obvious factual errors. One of them says that he is filming The Passion of the Christ in which Gibson plays Christ. Obviously that is not the case.
Daily mass was offered by a Jesuit priest on the set of The Passion according to Jim Caveziel, using the liturgy of Pope Paul VI, or perhaps even an Eastern liturgy. I heard him say it myself. Caveziel is in full communion with Rome, and adamantly refuses to attend schismatic, sedevacantist services. Again, I heard him say it myself. I do believe the masses on the set were conducted in Latin because of the international nature of the cast, which is exactly what our Holy Father has encouraged in the past. A Lebanese Jesuit was a consultant on the set. He is an expert in Aramaic, one of the languages spoken in the movie. One of the Eastern Churches, the Maronite Catholic Church, conducts its liturgy in Aramaic.
Obviously I have never spoken to Gibson myself, so I can only go by what I have read and what I heard Caveziel say. Yes, Gibson is a traditionalist and yes, he does not accept the revisions in the liturgy of 1970, but that does not make him an unfaithful Catholic, any more than a person who thinks President Bush is a bad president renounces his U.S. citizenship.
If I remember correctly, pictures were published of Gibson meeting John Paul II and kneeling and kissing his ring, and that is not something a person does if they do not accept the office of the Pope.
To summarize, I think Gibson is a faithful Catholic traditionalist, but I am not an expert on this topic, so I really can't say for sure.
Last edited on Sun Jul 8th, 2007 12:48 am by CajunRick
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Rick Luquette
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brian
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Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 05:43 am |
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As far as saying that priests should offer this mass to groups that seek it...did it clarify what that practically looks like? If me and 4 of my friends wwant to clebrate a Latin Mass is that enough, or does it have to be a specifically substantial group of people? How do you think this will practically work and when do you think we might start noticing? My Archdiocese has allowed Latin Masses for a whle so maybe I will see no difference where I live. I see soem people complaining about this, saying it is a step away from where Vatican II took us and that it makes it tougher on priests who do not know how to say the mass. Do they need to learn if they do not know, or find someone who does know? I wish people would not complain or feel threatened and learn to learn from and love one another as much as possible even when they find more favor with certain liturgical practices. I just prya this enriches us and unites us, and does not cause more division. But I am excited.
Brian
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 08:48 am |
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brian wrote: As far as saying that priests should offer this mass to groups that seek it...did it clarify what that practically looks like?
No. If four or five people request a mass using the extraordinary rite froma priest who is not trained in properly celebrating it, they will be declined. If fifty approach him, he would most likely refer them to his bishop.
The bishop, under the spirit of the regulations, would first of all have to find a church that has the requesite environment. It would need to have a removable Altar of Sacrifice, a standing main altar, and a communion rail. Then he would have to find a priest who is trained in the extraordinary rite, and the vestments necessary. That's not likely to happen for four or five people. In my diocese there is exactly one parish church that is even environmentally capable of a mass using the extraordinary rite, and it happens to be mine. I also have a pastor who studied Latin for seven years, and did celebrate mass using the extraordinary rite before the Liturgy of Pope Paul VI came into effect. It is possible he could be approached by the bishop of our diocese and asked to celebrate mass using the extraordinary rite, but he told me Sunday that he has no interest in doing so and no plans at this time. We do have a chapel in my diocese that offers mass in Latin and is environmentally suited to the old rite, but the priest there would have to be trained in the extraordinary rite. We have until September 14th for such things to work themselves out, and for Ecclesia Dei to offer further guidance in such things as how a church without an old-style altar and communion rail could offer the extraordinary rite.
It is not likely (in my opinion) that there will be very many parishes willing to undertake a major renovation of the parish church so that a few traditionalist parishioners can experience the old-style liturgy, but it is not impossible that a few might.
I just prya this enriches us and unites us, and does not cause more division.
I do believe that is exactly what will happen. And like you, I am excited about it, particularly because it is an "olive branch" by the Church to certain schismatic groups who have now lost their major objection to the legitimacy of the Church, and many who have left will return. I think it is quite possible that some sedevacantist priests will be accepted back into the Church, and some of their churches may well become the home of mass using the extraordinary rite.
But I still think that the major effect will be an increased use of Latin in the ordinary rite, and the possible blending of elements of the extraordinary rite into the ordinary rite somewhere down the road. And I think both of those are very good things.
Like you, I am excited. I will be lobbying my pastor not for a weekly mass, but an occasional mass using the extraordinary rite ... or at least to make our parish church available for such a mass on an occasional basis. It will be a major undertaking to take down the altar of sacrifice without breaking the heavy marble top, but the church is constructed in such a way that it is possible.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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