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NotCatholic
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Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 06:08 am |
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Ok I have been reading about the Motu Proprio and the TLM but what I would like to know is the holy father going to reform the Mass of Paul VI.
The Mass I went to was all in English.
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The attitude that nature is chaotic and that the artist puts order into it is a very absurd point of view, I think. All that we can hope for is to put some order into ourselves-Willem De Kooning
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 08:54 am |
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NotCatholic wrote: Ok I have been reading about the Motu Proprio and the TLM but what I would like to know is the holy father going to reform the Mass of Paul VI.
The Mass I went to was all in English.
I think it depends on what you mean by "reform".
A new English translation is already underway. The Holy Father has issued instructions calling for the increased use of Latin and a return to more traditional Catholic music such as Gregorian chant. He has signaled that he may well be open to allowing elements of the extraordinary rite to be used in the ordinary rite somewhere down the road, as well as some modernization of the extraordinary rite by adding new prefaces and Eucharistic prayers.
I don't foresee any wholesale changes in the ordinary rite, but I can already see signs of a crackdown on experimentation and liturgical "innovation" that has caused so much abuse. So I don't think "reform" is in order; I see a more strict enforcement of rules already in place.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 09:40 am |
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As an addendum to what CajunRick has said, it should be noted that the liturgy has always been subject to small changes, according to the Church’s current needs. The “TLM” (or “Traditional Latin Mass,” as you have called the Mass of John XXIII) dates back to a liturgical reform ordered by Pius V after the Council of Trent in the 16th century. Basically, a particular existing form of the Mass was reworked and declared the only standard form, all others being suppressed. (Forms that had existed for more than 200 years were exempt.) Since that time, minor “tweaks” have kept that liturgy relevant and sensitive to the needs of the people. John XXIII made the final change, dropping all language that might be interpreted as anti-Semitic, shortly before the overhaul of the liturgy accomplished by his successor, Paul VI.
The new English translation that Rick speaks of follows the official Latin text much more closely than the current text, following new regulations laid down by the Vatican. Once the translation is complete and approved both by the bishops’ conference and by the Vatican, it will become the official English text. This process will probably take several more years.
David
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Traveler
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Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 12:04 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: A new English translation is already underway. The Holy Father has issued instructions calling for the increased use of Latin and a return to more traditional Catholic music such as Gregorian chant. He has signaled that he may well be open to allowing elements of the extraordinary rite to be used in the ordinary rite somewhere down the road, as well as some modernization of the extraordinary rite by adding new prefaces and Eucharistic prayers.
You mentioned the extraordinary rite. What is that?
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Annie
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Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 12:34 pm |
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| The old style Latin Mass which is allowed by the motu proprio is now called "the extraordinary rite," the Paul VI rite being the ordinary rite.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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Darlene
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Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2007 01:28 am |
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So will the Motu Proprio allow for the return of altars, and kneeling to receive the Eucharist on the tongue? Will it also allow for priests to face the East when consecrating the host? I know questions like this were being asked on Raymond Arroyo's show last night but I was interrupted a few times and didn't hear all the replies.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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NotCatholic
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Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2007 02:16 am |
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I think it depends on what you mean by reform
Yeah I was talking about small things like Music and more Latin in the Mass.
A new English translation is already underway. The Holy Father has issued instructions calling for the increased use of Latin and a return to more traditional Catholic music such as Gregorian chant.
When do you think we will see more Latin and Gregorian chant?
I think its great what the holy father is doing.
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The attitude that nature is chaotic and that the artist puts order into it is a very absurd point of view, I think. All that we can hope for is to put some order into ourselves-Willem De Kooning
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NotCatholic
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Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2007 02:22 am |
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I don't foresee any wholesale changes in the ordinary rite, but I can already see signs of a crackdown on experimentation and liturgical "innovation" that has caused so much abuse. So I don't think "reform" is in order; I see a more strict enforcement of rules already in place.
Like the EWTN Mass becuse from what I understand this is what the Mass should look like.
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The attitude that nature is chaotic and that the artist puts order into it is a very absurd point of view, I think. All that we can hope for is to put some order into ourselves-Willem De Kooning
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2007 09:20 am |
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Darlene wrote:
So will the Motu Proprio allow for the return of altars, and kneeling to receive the Eucharist on the tongue? Will it also allow for priests to face the East when consecrating the host?
It’s not the motu proprio that does this; it has to do with the requirements of the liturgy itself.
In the Extraordinary Form (the Mass of John XXIII), these requirements, along with a number of others, were already in place when it came into being under Pius V (see my explanation above); they continue unchanged to the present day. But you will notice that Benedict XVI is beginning to suggest that more flexibility is coming. For instance, he has already allowed for the Liturgy of the Word to be proclaimed in the vernacular, using the lectionary from the Ordinary Form (the Mass of Paul VI). Also, he has called for a reform of the liturgical calendar for the Extraordinary Form, to bring it into conformity with the Ordinary Form.
The reason for the differences we see in the Ordinary Form is that the national council of bishops asked for them and the Vatican allowed them. You will see differences from country to country on how the Ordinary Form is celebrated, and this is because bishops in the various countries asked for different things. So you can see that there is a lot more flexibility in the Ordinary Form.
If you wish to hear again Raymond Arroyo’s presentation (which is very informative), it is available all week via the EWTN website. Go to the Multimedia section, under Podcasts. The 30 megabyte downloadable file requires an MP3 player, such as iTunes or RealPlayer, to function. (There is a link on EWTN’s main Multimedia page to the free RealPlayer download.)
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2007 02:31 pm |
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I think the Holy Father has signaled that he will allow some experimentation over the next three years to see the practical effect of his instructions, and then undertake a general review. Pope Benedict is already 80, so it is quite possible it is his successor who will complete the task.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Wed Jul 11th, 2007 04:15 pm |
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| I'm beginning to understand the enormity of the Pope's job. Guardianship of the deposit of faith, guiding the church through so much clamoring for "relevance" and "dumbing down." I didn't used to understand the importance of what liturgical music was, I just thought it sounded good. I didn't know the difference in vestments, or why it was important to place a certain prayer at one point in the order instead of another. Now that I know the mass is the world partaking of the Holy Eucharist, that it is not a "re-sacrifice" but a continuation of the same sacrifice Christ made and He is present with us, literally, it all takes on much more gravity. It's no wonder the wheels of the church turn so slowly.
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