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Credo Catholic
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| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Jul 13th, 2007 09:52 pm |
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| I'm wondering, is there a difference between the recently discussed "Latin Mass" and a mass where latin is used. There is a church here that has a "Latin Mass" one Sunday a month, but I have visited other times and they do not have an altar rail, I didn't see a tabernacle, and I didn't see an altar other than the free-standing one. They furnish a missal with the English and Latin printed side by side, but is this what the Pope has recently been addressing? As a new catholic, this is getting stranger and stranger!
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Jul 13th, 2007 10:48 pm |
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Actually, Marsha, there are two different forms of the liturgy, but both may be celebrated in Latin. The Mass you describe is evidently the Ordinary Form (to use the recently introduced vocabulary of our Holy Father) celebrated in Latin rather than in the vernacular. The Extraordinary Form requires Latin (no option for the vernacular) and also requires an altar where the priest can face the same direction as the congregation, plus an altar rail.
A Latin–English missal is a good idea in either form of the liturgy in Latin if the person knows only English or is just beginning to learn the Latin responses.
The lack of a visible tabernacle is a violation of Church law. However, the tabernacle may in certain legitimate cases be located in a separate chapel, so you should look for this before thinking that the church lacks a tabernacle.
David
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2007 12:05 am |
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| Thanks David, they do have a chapel of Perpetual Adoration, and it is a dramatically contemporary building so it was probably where I didn't recognize it. I feel sure they wouldn't violate church law. Now one more question: reading Latin and knowing pronunciation don't always go together for me! Do I have to just hope I'm sitting near someone with good enunciation and a clear voice to learn, or is there a source I could go to for help in learning to vocalize the responses?
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2007 12:31 am |
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My experience of Latin pronunciation in this country, even before Vatican II, has been that hardly anybody has it right. Pronunciation guides are available on the internet. Here is one. And here is another. Note that there is a difference between classical Latin (the pagan authors) and ecclesiastical Latin (the Church’s traditional pronunciation, based on medieval forms). What you want for the Latin Mass is the ecclesiastical pronunciation.
David
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beachmoss
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Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2007 12:35 am |
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Marsha,
I'm curious. Are you referring to Prince of Peace or St. Mary Magdalene?
I know POP has a High Latin mass once a month. There is or was, last time I was there, a Tabernacle in view behind the altar. They use the altar rail during the Latin mass but not during the Ordinary Masses.
At SEAS we use some Latin, such as the Sanctus and Agnus Dei, in the Ordinary Mass. I love it! In fact as we have been travelling recently, I get tripped up on the English!
Beth
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2007 01:09 am |
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| I'm referring to Prince of Peace. I have been there but not during the Latin Mass. I have heard it is very beautiful. I didn't see the tabernacle but I'm sure it was there somewhere! I could see a little through the glass wall on the side into the Adoration chapel.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2007 01:14 am |
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Credo Catholic wrote: As a new catholic, this is getting stranger and stranger!
David is correct, of course, but he left out a third option. Here's the breakdown:
The Extraordinary form may be celebrated only in Latin.
The Ordinary form may be celebrated only in English, or with some prayers in Latin and some in English.
Also, both forms may be said in their appropriate languages with humns sung in either Latin or English. Yes, it is possible that the Extraordinary form of the mass could be used with some of the horrible music introduced in the last few decades, and it is equally possible that the Extraordinary form could be celebrated with some of the recent good stuff in English. It is also possible to use traditional Latin hymns with either the Ordinary or Extraordinary forms. I do believe at this time that the mass parts in the Extraordinary form can only be sung in Latin.
So Extraordinary form:- Prayers in Latin
- Mass parts in Latin
- Hymns in Latin or English
Ordinary form:- Prayers in Latin or English
- Mass parts in Latin or English
- Hymns in Latin or English
I hope that didn't add to your confusion.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2007 01:15 am |
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| Thanks David for the guide to Ecclesiastical Latin. I wouldn't have known the difference!
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2007 01:19 am |
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Credo Catholic wrote: Thanks David for the guide to Ecclesiastical Latin. I wouldn't have known the difference!
When I studied Latin, my teacher was a priest with an extremely heavy Cajun accent who had learned Latin from a German. Germanic Latin pronounces "W's" as "V's" and makes some other pronounciation difference. My second year teacher was later named Archbishop of Miama, John Favalora, and he learned classical Ecclesial Latin in Rome.
Boy, was I confused!
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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beachmoss
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Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2007 01:31 am |
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Credo Catholic wrote: I'm referring to Prince of Peace. I have been there but not during the Latin Mass. I have heard it is very beautiful. I didn't see the tabernacle but I'm sure it was there somewhere! I could see a little through the glass wall on the side into the Adoration chapel.
I didn't even realise they had an Adoration Chapel. But it's been years since I've been there!
I know that Father Steve was very instrumental in getting the church built the way it is so that they would be able to celebrate the Latin mass in it. And it is very different from their first church--no pews or kneelers--just regular chairs. It was rather strange. But the Mass was always very reverent, even when celebrated in the gym.
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2007 01:35 pm |
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Hi Beth, when I went to Prince of Peace, it was to hear a concert that was performed by a men's group which included their minister of music. It was a group of older men, dressed in tuxes who sang mostly secular older songs such as "In the Good Old Summertime" and that kind of thing. Most of the audience was family and friends and I suspect mostly protestant! I saw a former elderly Sunday School teacher of mine from my former church. Anyway, it may be that I didn't recognize the altar rail, and they would have been standing in front of it on risers anyway. But I know there were windows along the wall on the right side looking into the chapel of Eucharistic Adoration, because I kept looking in wishing I were in there instead of listening to the choral music! I can't imagine such an event taking place at our church. I am thinking that when an event of that sort takes place, maybe because the Blessed Sacrament is in the chapel to the side, it's okay.
I would like to attend the Latin Mass there if I can get the date right. I think it's the first Sunday of the month, at 5:00? It would be a good time to wear my chapel veil, still stuck away in a drawer.
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Sat Jul 14th, 2007 01:44 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: I hope that didn't add to your confusion.
At this point, the saturation level of confusion is pretty high! You couldn't add much more that would make any difference - it will sort itself out with time and observation. As Beth pointed out, we also use Latin for the Agnus Dei and Sanctus during Solemn Mass. We always sing the Gloria and now I have trouble saying it if I'm not singing it! Same with the Divine Mercy, I can sing it but get "lost" trying to just say it! Catholicland is a trip!
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Tina in Ashburn
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Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2007 12:06 am |
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Marsha, this thread has me confused too. I've attended the old Mass and the new Mass in Latin and am pretty well-versed in all that .... and I'm confused.
I guess you just have to go to 'get it'. Once you experience it all more regularly it will get better. Its not as bad as it sounds here. Really.:?
God Bless!
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Sun Jul 15th, 2007 11:57 pm |
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| Beth, I wonder if you'd like to meet me there one Sunday when it's good for each of us? I think it's on the first Sunday of the month but I'll check to be sure. I want to see what I missed the first time. Going through the huge doors with the bronze grapevine doorhandles is worth it alone! I'll PM when I find out.
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