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heardclarke
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| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | Dallas Area, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 197 |
| First Name: | Lisa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Episcopalian; confirmed RC Easter 2005 |
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 12:51 pm |
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Thanks Rick.
I have seen it done so randomly that I just did not get it.
So maybe I should teach the kids how to use the raised hands position during the Our Father? Or can we still omit that gesture? I appreciate your "technical" explanantion and of course I get that the validity of the mass is basically unaffected by a few mistakes on the part of the laity.
The adults with whom I go to Mass most often are my husband and his friend, who are both partial to the Tridentine Mass and do not do any of these gestures (except to pass the peace). I am more comfortable with different "expressions of community" than DH probably because of the kids' masses I go to during the week.
I just want to be certain that whatever I tell the students is exactly correct. For example, some asked last year about receiving communion of the tongue and about going to Confession face to face vs. behind the screen. In both cases we told them that they were allowed to choose for themselves and to do what they felt most comfortable doing. I also told them I had done these things both ways myself and they were both nice.
My DH has a copy of the GIRM in his study and I will check it out while I wait for your reply. Thanks!
Lisa
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Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4981 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 02:46 pm |
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heardclarke wrote: So maybe I should teach the kids how to use the raised hands position during the Our Father? Or can we still omit that gesture? I appreciate your "technical" explanantion and of course I get that the validity of the mass is basically unaffected by a few mistakes on the part of the laity.
Ask the Office of Worship in your diocese, or your pastor, about the "official" recommendations in your diocese. The bishop's conference issues recommendations but they do not generally carry the force of law. It is the responsibility of the bishop of your diocese to implement the instructions of the Vatican and the national bishop's conference.
Posture during mass is greatly cultural in nature. We kneel during the Eucharistic Prayer while in many cultures, kneeling is offensive and standing is a sign of respect. One does not kneel when the President enters the room.
As for holding hands during the Our Father, it is a sign of the unity of communion that has not yet taken place, and so it is discouraged. That doesn't necessarily mean it's wrong. I will sometimes hold hands with my wife and daughter as our communion is by covenant and by blood, so it exists before the mass begins and after it ends. Also, I will usually allow others to take my hand to avoid offense, even though I would prefer not to do so. It is a bigger deal to some people than to others, and in some locations than in others. In my opinion, it's not worth raising a scene.
The adults with whom I go to Mass most often are my husband and his friend, who are both partial to the Tridentine Mass and do not do any of these gestures (except to pass the peace). I am more comfortable with different "expressions of community" than DH probably because of the kids' masses I go to during the week.
The Sign of Peace was not part of the Liturgy of Pope John XXIII, so you are probably attending a Latin version of the Liturgy of Pope Paul VI, or else your congregation is deviating from the rubrics of the older mass.
I just want to be certain that whatever I tell the students is exactly correct. For example, some asked last year about receiving communion of the tongue and about going to Confession face to face vs. behind the screen. In both cases we told them that they were allowed to choose for themselves and to do what they felt most comfortable doing. I also told them I had done these things both ways myself and they were both nice.
That is a very good answer. You can tell them the same about holding hands at the Our Father. It is not an official gesture but many people do it. They should certainly feel comfortable taking the hands of their parents and siblings since they are already in communion prior to the mass, but should not feel compelled to take the hand of a stranger.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 06:47 pm |
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I’ll back Rick’s statement on these matters, Lisa.
My personal participation in the liturgy follows the letter of the rubrics, but I do not complain about those who do otherwise, so long as my own ways are not rejected. My position is without reference to the Extraordinary Form of the Mass (Latin, 1962 missal), but rather to the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) and the Vatican instructions. I even bow at the required place in the creed. (Yes, it’s in there!)
I think Rick misunderstood your reference to your husband and his friend, who have a liking for the Extraordinary Form of the Mass and “do not do any of these gestures (except to pass the peace).” It appears that, like me, they are careful to follow the rubrics as printed when they attend Mass in the Ordinary Form.
I too like your answer to the children as to which form to use where there is an indult option, although I believe it is permissible to state that the universal and preferred method of receiving comunion is on the tongue. Likewise, the universal and preferred method of confession is to use the screen (although for personal reasons I choose face to face whenever it is available).
David
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heardclarke
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| Joined: | Mon Apr 9th, 2007 |
| Location: | Dallas Area, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 197 |
| First Name: | Lisa | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Episcopalian; confirmed RC Easter 2005 |
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 08:12 pm |
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Thanks David....you are right, I meant that they pass the peace when they attend an ordinary mass.
I know that receiving on the tongue is the "normative" way (big word I learned from my husband's friend ). I do it too if the rest of the congregation is doing that (as at the cathedral up in Providence, RI where we go in the summer.) At our parish in Dallas, nobody seems to do it -- so it seemed like an undue complication for the little ones. Also my partner teacher didn't want to recommend it, and it was my first year last year to teach 2nd grade, so I wanted to follow her lead there. (Yeah, I know, I'm a big chicken!)
I didn't know that about confession behind the screen. I do like to go face to face with my pastor, as he has been such an awesome counselor to me and (as a monsignor) he also confirmed me in 2005. I made one confession in his office, a long one when I had a lot of questions. When I was not at my own parish, I have gone behind the screen once. But I am glad that face-to-face confession is totally permissible.
Thanks again. Sorry if we got a little off topic here!
Lisa
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Ubi caritas et amor, Deus ibi est.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Jan 20th, 2008 09:20 pm |
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I know that receiving on the tongue is the "normative" way.… Yeah, I know, I'm a big chicken!
I’m not pushing. The term I used was “permissible.” That means you can use your judgment as to whether it is advisable. Evidently, in your context, it is mostly not advisable. So… no problem.
Sorry if we got a little off topic here!
We didn’t stray too far. We’re still talking about those “grey areas” of the rubrics. Again… no problem.
David
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NotCatholic
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Posted: Mon Jan 21st, 2008 09:08 pm |
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When I was going to Mass I had a women grab my hand I did not like this at all I also had a older man one time after mass grab my arm to hold me back to help out after mass all he had too do was ask not grab me I did not say anything to the man because I grow up to respect my elders but I was a upset.
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The attitude that nature is chaotic and that the artist puts order into it is a very absurd point of view, I think. All that we can hope for is to put some order into ourselves-Willem De Kooning
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RCCSoldat
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| Joined: | Tue Aug 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Pekin, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 17 |
| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Methodist/Non-denom/Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2008 05:55 pm |
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BodRod wrote: I did not like it at first. however, as I got used to it, I started feeling like it broke down the invisible barriers between the members present and gave us a feeling of oneness or unity. I was no longer an individual in the pew but a member of the group.
I couldn't agree more.
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RCCSoldat
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| Joined: | Tue Aug 14th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 17 |
| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Methodist/Non-denom/Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Jan 25th, 2008 06:04 pm |
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rrammfcitktturjsp012006 wrote: Annie,
I have heard from many Catholics that Pope Paul the VI was not a good pope becuase he changed the Mass. What I am confused is that we have had the Latine Mass since times long forgotten. That provided the Church stability and Universalism. And now, it does not feel that way. I am thinking that a Vatican promulgation of doing away with the Novus Order would be a great thing.
Sincerely,
Anne
I am not by all means a "Traditionalist", just someone who would like to see one form one Mass.
Hang on to your hat Anne, fore I do believe that Pope Benedict XVI is steering us back to the future - so to speak. I welcome that direction also.
Peace be with you.
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RCMusicGuy
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Posted: Mon Feb 25th, 2008 07:25 pm |
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| Over the years, I have noticed that a number of people are not holding the hands of their neighbors...maybe less than 1%. Instead, they usually stand in the orans position looking straight ahead. From what I can see, there is no hand grabbing, just a look, a hand outstreached and if there is not reciprocation, the outstreached hand slowly moves back into place!
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