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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 01:01 am |
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| This may be trivial compared to some questions asked lately but I need to ask. I searched and didn't see where this question had been addressed before. Today in mass (All Saints Day) I sat in a pew with two strangers: a lady at the far end and a man who came in after me and sat beside me. During the Our Father, as usual I held my hands together in prayer and kept my eyes on the stained glass window of the crucifixion above the altar. Out of the corner of my eye I could see a hand sort of waving around; the man was lifting his hands to hold hands with me, as many people do. I ignored it, but it made me feel anti-social and disturbed me. I don't want to seem cold to people, but I don't want to hold hands! I resent being put in this position while I am trying to concentrate on what may be the most important prayer (that I participate in) of the mass. My question to those people who do prefer to hold hands in fellowship is: does it seem anti-social when I do not hold hands with you? I don't want to insult anyone, but it seems there are as many people who do as there are people who don't.
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JillD
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Posted: Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 01:39 am |
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As I understand it, we're not supposed to do that, hold hands, that is. The gesture is for the priest to do. I think that it's presumptious and imposing on someone's personal space to even attempt to hold hands with a stranger. It seems too Protestant to me, too. I hope the Catholic Church stays Catholic!
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"The alternative to obedience is to turn the conversation into a cacophony of Christians making it up as they go along." - Fr. Richard John Neuhaus
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 02:20 am |
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Marsha, I've done some research on this question of hand holding over the years. The answer is always the same: It isn't part of the Mass. It doesn't appear anywhere in the rubrics. How, then, can it be “wrong” not to hold hands?
The whole thing is a social convention, not an act of worship. It had its beginning in Alcoholics Anonymous circles in the United States. It was touted by self-proclaimed “liturgists” and in charismatic circles in the wake of Vatican II as a means of promoting “community.”
Repeatedly, muted Vatican comments concerning the practice are passed down. It “was not contemplated” to be incorporated into the Mass. Unfortunately, it is impossible to find anything at all officially written on the topic. This is because none of it, outside of the liturgical documents themselves, is official or binding. All comments so far are, as it were, “off the record.” So we have to rely on the general rule of the standard assumptions of liturgical law.
Canon law and liturgical law operate on a different principle than civil law in the United States. The principle of an act being permitted unless it is specifically prohibited is the basis of English jurisprudence, but this is directly opposed to Roman juridprudence, which accepts the principle that an act is cconsidered prohibited unless specifically permitted. So the whole idea of hand holding being acceptable in the Mass goes contrary to the traditional interpretation of liturgical law.
Now does this mean that if, say, family members find it meaningful to share this moment of prayer by holding hands, they are breaking the law? No. There is no law; there is simply no mention of hand holding.
What the law clearly does prohibit, even by its silence, is forcing such a practice as hand holding on a fellow worshiper who prefers to concentrate on prayer. And this means that you have no obligation to respond, even when pressured to do so.
The bottom line is this: the hand-holding gesture is a social act, not a liturgical act. It is not encouraged in the Mass, but if you want to do it, nobody is going to run you out. On the other hand, you should be respectful toward those who have come to participate in the sacred act of worship.
Priests, deacons, readers or any other leaders of liturgical worship have no right to act as if hand holding is an official part of the liturgy, because it is not. Any command or urging to hold hands is out of place. Specific prohibition is consistent with the rubrics of the Mass, but not explicitly pronounced. Hand holding is also out of place during the liturgical act simply because it is not in the spirit of the liturgy. Any imposition one way or another turns the Mass into something it was never intended to be: a forum for agendas.
There will undoubtedly be some who disagree with these words. I can only reiterate that it is the consistent unofficial interpretation that has emanated from Rome during the past 40 years. My own preferences do not matter; obedience to the authority of the Church does. If and when the Church pronounces authoritatively on this issue, our duty is to accept it. Given that the unofficial interpretation has been consistent, I see no difficulty in saying that this is the interpretation we should hold to meantime.
David
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BodRod
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Posted: Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 06:47 am |
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| I did not like it at first. however, as I got used to it, I started feeling like it broke down the invisible barriers between the members present and gave us a feeling of oneness or unity. I was no longer an individual in the pew but a member of the group.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Ali
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Posted: Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 06:53 am |
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Thank you so much for addressing this! I've been wondering, too. Most of the people I see doing it are older couples, or old family Catholics. So, I thought it was some kind of tradition that was being lost on us today.
Our family holds hand when we pray anway, and at church I'm already usually holding my dh's or ds's hand. So when we say the Our Father, I just grab the hand beside me, which is always family. This past weekend my BIL was visiting and attended with us, he was on my other side and took my hand.
Huh, we won't stop holding hands (since we do it all through Mass anway, lol) but we won't do it just for the Our Father.
Learnt somethin' new today. Here I was thinkin' I was all done with learnin'. ROFLOL
Ali
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 09:15 am |
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David W. Emery wrote: Canon law and liturgical law operate on a different principle than civil law in the United States. The principle of an act being permitted unless it is specifically prohibited is the basis of English jurisprudence, but this is directly opposed to Roman juridprudence, which accepts the principle that an act is cconsidered prohibited unless specifically permitted.
Strangely enough, Louisiana law is not based on English jurisprudence but on the French Napoleanic Code, which is based on the Roman code. In Louisiana, acts are prohibited unless specifically permitted so, for example, if a local government wants to build a bridge, they must have permission of the legislature to do it. Local communities can vote for Home Rule which then grants the authority to make those decision locally, but otherwise authority is vested in the state.
I think that's one reason South Louisiana, which is predominantly Catholic, tends to accept change much more readily than in other places. (We may not always like it, but we do it.) In my parish, our pastor said we were not to hold hands during the Our Father, and so we don’t. He said we were to bow before receiving Eucharist, and so we do. I would imagine the same is true in Hispanic communities.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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japhy
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Posted: Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 09:54 am |
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I have my hands folded in prayer for basically the entire duration of the Mass, except when I am placing my tithe in the basket or showing a sign of peace to a neighbor at the appropriate time during Mass. I don't hold other peoples' hands during the Our Father (not even my wife's, as she keeps her hands folded too).
My opinion on the matter (apart from it not being in the rubrics) is that the words of the prayer, spoken in the plural first person, are more than enough to remind me that I am in a family, a community, and we are all praying together to our God and Father.
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[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
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Annie
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Posted: Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 10:58 am |
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In our diocese we were told not to hold hands but we may use the orans posture but some parishes still do anyway. I do the Benedictine way and keep hands folded. Some folks glare :X at me but in my background the orans posture was always reserved for priests and it was disrespectful and wrong for the laity to use it. I even see some now replacing the orans posture with the priest's posture of hands extended up at about shoulder height, which symbolizes Christ on the cross. This is in the category of "give them an inch and they will take a yard."
There are a few people who make up other hand gestures too. And one couple in my parish faces each other and holds hands, which makes a very private, exclusionary gesture.:?
There is far too much creativity in liturgy which has contributed to people's lack of understanding of our beliefs.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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faithfl1
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Posted: Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 12:19 pm |
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| I understand that when they raise their hands up they are trying to show reverance for the Lord, but it makes me feel very uncomfortable seeing this. Not only does it seem like they are being Protestant/evangilical, but it sort of seems like they are raising themselves up to be on the same level with the Priest. I feel that the Priest should be the only one doing this and that we should just hold our hands (our own hands) together, humbly, in Prayer position. Just MHO. Last edited on Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 12:20 pm by faithfl1
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Annie
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Posted: Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 12:53 pm |
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faithfl1 wrote: I understand that when they raise their hands up they are trying to show reverance for the Lord, but it makes me feel very uncomfortable seeing this. Not only does it seem like they are being Protestant/evangilical, but it sort of seems like they are raising themselves up to be on the same level with the Priest. I feel that the Priest should be the only one doing this and that we should just hold our hands (our own hands) together, humbly, in Prayer position. Just MHO.
This practice comes to us from the charismatic movement, which is based on Protestant Pentacostalism. In some parishes here they look askance at you if you don't identify yourself as charismatic. Whatsa matter, no Holy Spirit? It flies in the face of what the Church teaches about the nature of the sacraments, particularly Confirmation. But this is all part of the modern confusion.
Humility does not usually reign supreme wherever there are people.
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Annie
Ora et labora
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 01:32 pm |
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My real concern remains, I don't want the hand-holders to feel insulted. They are doing what is accepted as normal, they haven't been instructed not to do so, in most places. I don't fault them, I just wondered how they feel when their gesture is not reciprocated.
Just sitting here, wringing my hands ... :?
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Intercessor
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Posted: Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 02:07 pm |
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Credo Catholic wrote:
Out of the corner of my eye I could see a hand sort of waving around; the man was lifting his hands to hold hands with me, as many people do. I ignored it, but it made me feel anti-social and disturbed me. I don't want to seem cold to people, but I don't want to hold hands! I resent being put in this position while I am trying to concentrate on what may be the most important prayer (that I participate in) of the mass. My question to those people who do prefer to hold hands in fellowship is: does it seem anti-social when I do not hold hands with you?
This is not a problem at my regular place of worship; but when I find myself visiting a different sort of place, I am in the camp with Jeff and Marsha.
I handle the problem by closing my eyes before getting to the spot that produces the seeking, waving hands. There I stand, hands securely folded in prayer, eyes completely closed. Once safely past that portion of the service, I open my eyes again.
I appreciate your attitude, Marsha. It is important for both kinds of persons to avoid uncharitable conclusions about the other.Last edited on Thu Nov 15th, 2007 02:58 am by Intercessor
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"If our charity is arrested by the difficulties encountered in dealing with our neighbor, . . . our relations with our brethren are not regulated by our love of God, but by our love of self." Divine Intimacy p. 781, Fr. Gabriel, O.C.D.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 02:45 pm |
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Annie wrote: In our diocese we were told not to hold hands but we may use the orans posture
I believe that is the suggested posture in the United States. It's been a couple of years since the instructions on posture came down, so I'd have to research it, but if our bishop is suggesting that posture, it is certainly acceptable. Holding hands, on the other hand, is a spontaneous act that grew inappropriately. It's not exactly wrong, but it's not exactly right, either.
I will sometimes hold hands with my wife and/or daughter at the Our Father, because the "communion" between us is already well established at the human level. If I'm visiting another parish, I will "do what the Romans do" and follow their local practice unless I can easily avoid it. In my own parish, if someone does offer me their hand, I simply will not notice.
My suggestion is to do whatever fosters your own prayer. If it bothers you to hold someone else's hand, then don't. I think the fact that it keeps being discussed (I think this is the third or fourth thread we've had about it) makes it seem much more important than it is. In the overall scope of the mass, whether or not we hold hands at the Our Father is, in my opinion, not very significant. We should not worry about what others do. That is the purview of our priests and bishops.
Suppose I am from Europe and I decide I am going to stand during the Eucharistic Prayer. Is that wrong? It's the accepted posture in much of the world. People might look at me like I'm crazy but that's their problem, not mine. A visiting Protestant, or a person with bad knees, might sit during the Eucharistic Prayer, or kneel just for the consecration. That's OK. We've also discussed what was called "butt kneeling" where a person kneels but keeps their rear end on the seat. I think that's sort of like a fear of commitment: you can't decide what you want to do, so you get stuck in the middle.
Postures in liturgy are, for the most part, suggestions. Sometimes a different posture is a sign of poor catechesis, in that the person may not understand the reason for a given posture. I see people doing things at mass all the time and wonder if they have any clue why they do it. I think it is a much more serious matter that people don't give reverence to the Blessed Sacrament when they enter the Church, or they chew gum on their way to receive communion. If we're going to worry about something, let's worry about the disrespect shown to the Blessed Sacrament. That's a much more serious issue.
As to the original question of whether it is anti-social, you could simply look at them and say, "no, thank you" if ignoring them isn't enough. They'll get the message.
At least in my opinion.
Last edited on Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 02:47 pm by CajunRick
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Kayla
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Posted: Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 08:20 pm |
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I don't hold hands, and usually the fact that my hands are folded together keeps anyone from attempting to grab ahold of mine.
I already find the Sign of Peace to be at an awkward place in the Mass, and it always feels to me that there is a great reverence observed up until the point where we pray the Our Father. Once we get here, everyone is getting ready for the Sign of Peace, holding hands, and really, at least it seems to me, forgetting that Jesus is present on the Altar! Now, don't get me wrong, I do not think that the Our Father takes away from the Mass or makes it less reverent, but I do believe that when people begin moving around and holding hands (everyone can just feel the Sign of Peace coming) kind of creates a dramatic drop in reverence.
Just my opinion, though.
Otherwise, I say go by the rubrics. It is not specified, it really shouldn't be done. But if you really want to, and you bishop hasn't prohibited, that's fine with me, I guess.
____________________
I believe, Lord, help my unbelief.
Jesus, I trust in You!
There's not a lot of job security for us after death. I suppose that's one advantage of being a philosopher. - Peter Kreeft
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rrammfcitktturjsp012006
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Posted: Sat Nov 3rd, 2007 01:37 am |
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I was reading this topic and am struck with something. In a part of the Mass and I am so bad with sections so I am going to do my best in conveying this, but the priest goes May the peace of Christ be with you, and we say and also with you. Lift your hearts up to the Lord and then we say we lift them up to the Lord and lift our hands. Could not when we say the Our Father during Mass we are praying this with uplifted hands.? What is your point of view on this?
As for me holding hands is very touchy for me as I sing in the choir or hold my hands in a prayerful manner as to where my hands get hot and sweaty, and so holding hands is very embarassing for me to do lol. But I do hold hands with my husband or my close friends or choir members at Church but only becuase I know them well and they know me well, and know that my hands are hot and they are okay with that.
I read this entire post with a smile on my face, becuase today at the 1215 Mass I was sitting with strangers and well I was embarassed to hold hands. I find out that if I dont hold hands with strangers or peeps I dont know well, I can focus better on the alter and what is going on?
I believe it comes down to a perference.
May the peace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you.
Anne
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Nov 3rd, 2007 12:17 pm |
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rrammfcitktturjsp012006 wrote: the priest goes May the peace of Christ be with you, and we say and also with you. Lift your hearts up to the Lord and then we say we lift them up to the Lord and lift our hands. Could not when we say the Our Father during Mass we are praying this with uplifted hands.? What is your point of view on this?
That's the introduction to the Eucharistic Prayer, and it's called the Preface. The exchange of dialogue you are referring to specifically is the introductory prayers to the Eucharistic Prayer:
Priest: The Lord be with you.
People: And also with you.
Priest: Lift up your hearts.
People: We lift them up to the Lord.
Priest: Let us give thanks to the Lord our God.
People: It is right to give him thanks and praise.
(From memory; it's hard to remember the exact words of something at a keyboard even if you've recited it a million times, so don't hang me if I got a word or two wrong!)
You say when we lift our hands. Well, that's not part of the rubrics (rules), either. In fact, the General Instructions to the Roman Missal (GIRM) specifically states we are not to imitate the priest. But lifting our hands (what's known as the Orans Posture) is in fact the recommended posture for reciting the Our Father.
So yes, it's perfectly OK to lift your hands at the Our Father, but not at the introductory prayers before the Preface.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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rrammfcitktturjsp012006
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Posted: Sat Nov 3rd, 2007 01:34 pm |
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Ooops because at the Catholic Churches I have been too we all lift up our hands during the preface. Dang it, I think we should all go back to the Tridentine Mass and solve so many difficulties this way. I wonder if we ever needed to chage it in the first place.
Seems like no one really knows whats going on. I am almost afriad to go and visit other Catholic Churches cuz I never know what is going on. It seems the further we get from the promulgation of Vatican II the Church is becoming less Universal as each parish is developing its own traditions.
Rubrics never heard of the word, so am guessing its a Catholic Word. I will have to google it when I get the time.
Anne
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Nov 3rd, 2007 05:28 pm |
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rrammfcitktturjsp012006 wrote: Rubrics never heard of the word, so am guessing its a Catholic Word. I will have to google it when I get the time.
From the Miriam-Webster dictionary:
rubric
Pronunciation: ˈrü-brik, -ˌbrik
Function:noun
Etymology:Middle English rubrike red ocher, heading in red letters of part of a book, from Anglo-French, from Latin rubrica, from rubr-, ruber redDate:14th century
1 a: an authoritative rule; especially : a rule for conduct of a liturgical service b (1): name, title; specifically : the title of a statute (2): something under which a thing is classed : category <the sensations falling under the general rubric, “pressure” — F. A. Geldard> c: an explanatory or introductory commentary : gloss; specifically : an editorial interpolation
2: a heading of a part of a book or manuscript done or underlined in a color (as red) different from the rest
3: an established rule, tradition, or custom
So basically, it means the rules. Every liturgical service has a set of rubrics (rules) on how it's supposed to be conducted. For the mass, the general rules are called the General Instruction of the Roman Missal, known as the "GIRM". There are also instructions within the printed mass itself.
You'll find lots of information on the way mass is supposed to be celebrated at the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops (USCCB) Liturgy Committee web site. (By the way, those blue words are links; click on them and it will take you to those sites.)
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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rrammfcitktturjsp012006
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Posted: Sun Nov 4th, 2007 12:56 am |
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Rick,
Thanks so much in for helping me out with these questions. I am thankful and glad to read your asnwers as well as the helpful links you provide. I have so much to read becuase of the last few links in other posts you have provided for.
Thanks for being a blessing in my life. Now the Roman Missal makes sense. All these words and things.
Sincerely,
Anne
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beachmoss
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Posted: Mon Nov 5th, 2007 03:27 pm |
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Marsha,
I like to hold hands during the "Our Father", but I respect those around me who do not. Usually I have a family member on one side (often I'll find a doll or teddy bear's hand in mine), and I'll hold out my other hand toward whomever is beside me. I let that person decide whether or not they want to take my hand. I don't wave it around or tap the person--I simply stick it out but not too close.
In the first parish I was a member of was everyone held hands--even stretching across the aisle. So it was ingrained in me early on.
I enjoy holding hands. I think it is a beautiful expression of the church members as a family. Not only is our prayer united through our voices, but we are physically united during the prayer. Personally, I think God smiles every time He sees us clasp a stranger's hand in prayer.
Beth
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Mon Nov 5th, 2007 03:44 pm |
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| Hi Beth, I absolutely understand your point. I see people who look forward to "joining in prayer" with hands as well as voices. As long as we don't misunderstand each other, and know that those of us who don't choose to join are doing it for a reason for themselves and not for a negative reason toward others. Like Rick said, it's not the most important issue in the mass, but it does matter to people.
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Annie
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Posted: Tue Nov 6th, 2007 02:16 pm |
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rrammfcitktturjsp012006 wrote: Ooops because at the Catholic Churches I have been too we all lift up our hands during the preface. Dang it, I think we should all go back to the Tridentine Mass and solve so many difficulties this way. I wonder if we ever needed to chage it in the first place.
Seems like no one really knows whats going on. I am almost afriad to go and visit other Catholic Churches cuz I never know what is going on. It seems the further we get from the promulgation of Vatican II the Church is becoming less Universal as each parish is developing its own traditions.
I think you hit the nail on the head, the rubrics of the Paul VI form are way too sketchy. Sketchiness allows people to do whatever they want. Compare it with the rubrics for the 1962 missal which tell the priest and people what to do and when in explicit detail, even down to hold the hands (like the fingers-joined-so-you-don't-drop-crumbs thing).
And no, we did not need to change it in the first place. Why this was done is obscure.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
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rrammfcitktturjsp012006
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| Joined: | Thu Nov 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | Midland, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 42 |
| First Name: | Anne | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | C of C, Wicca, Satanist, Atheist, Agnostic, Baptist, Unity, and ... |
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Posted: Wed Nov 7th, 2007 11:59 am |
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