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Faramir
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| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Baptist, being drawn to the Catholic Church |
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Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 04:48 am |
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While I grew up in a traditional Southern Baptist church, I have been attending a contemporary service geared towards college students while at school. It features a band with electric guitars, drums, projection screens, lighting, the whole nine yards. I have found this form of contemporary worship very powerful and has helped my relationship with God, although I recognize that sometimes it begins to feel more like a concert than a worship service.
My question is that, while I have never actually attended a Catholic Mass, I get the impression that it is a very solemn occasion, which is in itself good and something that I think many Protestant services have lost. However, I wonder whether this somber, liturgical worship style can cause Catholics to forget the joy and excitement that should come with being a Christian, realizing that God loves us unconditionally and that Christ's sacrifice has covered our sins with His infinite grace. I am just wondering whether there are ever times in Mass that are joyful and celebratory rather than solemn and penitential. My point is that I feel both are needed; my impression is that Protestants tend to forget the solemnity and Catholics tend to forget the joy.
On a related note, I can recognize the beauty of liturgical worship (again, without having yet experienced it myself), but I cannot help feeling that not everyone will respond to it in the same way. I am basically wondering if there are different styles of Catholic services; e.g. services using contemporary styles of music. If not, then what is the Church's rationale for requiring one particular style of worship? Why is an organ allowed and an electric guitar disallowed, even though they can be equally worshipful to different people?
____________________
"Almost the whole of Christian theology could perhaps be deduced from the two facts: (a) That men make coarse jokes, and (b) That they feel the dead to be uncanny."
- C.S. Lewis, Miracles
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 05:08 am |
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Faramir wrote: I am basically wondering if there are different styles of Catholic services; e.g. services using contemporary styles of music. If not, then what is the Church's rationale for requiring one particular style of worship? Why is an organ allowed and an electric guitar disallowed, even though they can be equally worshipful to different people?
Any valid expression of faith and worship can be found in the Catholic Church.
I have attended masses with loud rock music and Latin chants. I've been to Haiti where the mass at an old folks' home was accompanied by a "band" playing washboards and wash tubs. I've seen full orchestras accompany the liturgy, and small string quartets. I've seen trumpets and electric guitars and drums and flutes and violins and any other instrument you can imagine. I've heard full choirs and choral ensembles and fabulous four-part harmony and gospel groups. About the only thing I can think of that I haven't witnessed is a barbership quartet, but I'll bet it's been done.
I've seen some that I consider appropriate and some that I consider inappropriate, but it's not the style of music that makes it so. It's the selection of good, liturgically appropriate music played by talented musicians and singers who are more interested in the liturgy than the performance. The liturgy can never be a performance. It must always be worship, and everything must revolve around the Eucharist. And even pretty poor musicians and singers can add meaning to the liturgy if they do it with faith and reverence, and with music appropriate to the liturgy. And I've seen extremely talented musicians of all types put on a show that was totally out of place, because they were performing and not praying.
I've also seen youth groups with few resources and little talent put everything they had into a mass and deserving credit for the result, even though it was pretty awful. And I played and sang at mass Saturday night without enough practice and with a head cold and probably should have been run out of the church!
Music must enhance the liturgy. If it can be done in such a way that an electric guitar is appropriate, then it belongs in church. The most played album on my MP3 player right now is John Michael Talbot's "Monk Rock" and his Credo is absolutely fabulous. It is a rock version, but it's done with reverence by talented musicians with good instrumentalization, excellent harmony, legible lyrics, and an obvious intention of praise. Talbot is a Franciscan monk who was once the leader of the rock group "Mason Proffit" so he comes by his rock credentials honestly. His chants are also just terrific.
So to answer your question, the Church allows and encourages countless forms of worship from African tribal rituals to Vietnamese folk dancing to Native American smudging to Haitians banging on wash tubs in an old folks' home. And appropriate music is always an important part of the liturgy.
Last edited on Mon Jan 28th, 2008 05:21 am by
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Faramir
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| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Baptist, being drawn to the Catholic Church |
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Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 05:24 am |
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Thanks for your reply, I must confess that it is a big relief! I completely agree that the deciding criterion is whether or not it is worshipful, and am glad that the Catholic Church recognizes that many different forms of music can fit that criterion. Now that I think about it, I remember that much of today's "classical" music was originally composed for Mass, when it was as new and modern as Matchbox Twenty is today (although infinitely more worshipful, I'm sure)! I'll look for the artist you mentioned on iTunes, the rock version of the Credo (that's the Apostle's Creed, right?) sounds pretty cool.
____________________
"Almost the whole of Christian theology could perhaps be deduced from the two facts: (a) That men make coarse jokes, and (b) That they feel the dead to be uncanny."
- C.S. Lewis, Miracles
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 12:43 pm |
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Faramir wrote: I'll look for the artist you mentioned on iTunes, the rock version of the Credo (that's the Apostle's Creed, right?) sounds pretty cool.
It's actually the Nicene Creed, and I know it is available on EMusic. I'm not sure about iTunes. All of JMT's stuff is available on EMusic.
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Intercessor
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Posted: Mon Jan 28th, 2008 08:01 pm |
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Steven, over the years I wept with joy and celebration while singing "When We All Get to Heaven" and "Shout to the Lord." However, nothing matched the joy I now experience in every Sunday Mass as we sing the Gloria.
Glory to God in the highest, and peace to his people on earth.
Lord God, heavenly King, almighty God and Father,
we worship you, we give you thanks,
we praise you for your glory.
Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father,
Lord God, Lamb of God,
you take away the sin of the world:
have mercy on us;
you are seated at the right hand of the Father:
receive our prayer.
For you alone are the Holy One,
you alone are the Lord,
you alone are the Most High,
Jesus Christ,
with the Holy Spirit,
in the glory of God the Father.
Amen
I can hardly wait to sing it again next Sunday! 
How could one have more joy and celebration than that found in the intimate reception of our Lord's Body and Blood? There is "clap your hands, sway your hips" joy and there is inexpressible awe and silent wonder.
For me, it's sort of like the difference between a pre-teen's first kiss and the lingering eye contact between persons who have been happily married for forty years.
____________________
Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials. . .the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life. . . NAB James 1:2-4,12
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JillD
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Posted: Tue Jan 29th, 2008 04:03 am |
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I haven't read much of this thread, but I wanted to make this comment. On my journey to the CC, I went through the Lutheran Church. An orthodox, traditional Lutheran service has the source of the music behind the congregation, not the focus at all. This was new to me! And I appreciated it very much. This seems to make so much sense - our focus should be on the altar, the tabernacle, the crucifix. If some music group is "performing" at the front, they are going to draw attention their way and away from where it should be. It's not a concert! So, if the rock band, or folk group, or organ, or choir is behind and out-of-sight, great.
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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mrsbmoo
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Posted: Fri Feb 1st, 2008 05:00 am |
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| Ooooh Rick I like John Michael talbot too. I actually used one of his cds while I was in labor with my last child(The baby was actually born to the sound of Rich Mullins though). It was the one with pieces of the requiem he was writing. I am eager to hear the whole thing.
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Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 13 months and 17
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Kayla
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Posted: Fri Feb 1st, 2008 04:40 pm |
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Now, don't get me wrong, I don't "dislike" contemporary Christian music or anything to that sort, but I really don't care for it inside of the Mass.
Here at school they have the choir sitting up in the right transcept with electric and base guitars and pretty much every instrument imaginable. Some of the music they play, liturgically, is appropriate. Some of it isn't. (Feliz Navidad as a closing hymn?) Sometimes it sounds okay, sometimes it doesn't.
Personally, it distracts me. Not necessarily the music itself but the atmosphere it creates. People clap and kind of dance around (not very extravagant, just bouncing and what not) in their pews. It takes a lot of the reverence for the Mass away, I've noticed.
Now-- I certainly think that this type of music has its place in worship, most definitely. But I think it needs to be taken outside of the Mass.
On most Monday evenings I go to what is called Praise and Worship. It encompasses the same style of music, but in a non-liturgical setting. We have both students and seminarians, and the music is led by both. It's a great way to worship.
But again, at least for me personally, I think it should take place outside of the Mass.
____________________
I believe, Lord, help my unbelief.
Jesus, I trust in You!
There's not a lot of job security for us after death. I suppose that's one advantage of being a philosopher. - Peter Kreeft
http://kayla23mount.blogspot.com/
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beachmoss
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Posted: Fri Feb 1st, 2008 11:49 pm |
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I have a friend (Methodist) who went to a funeral at the Southern Baptist church. She said that she was shocked to see their praise band equipment littered all over the "stage." She said it was so distracting trying to listen to the service and see all that stuff behind her cousin's casket.
She is the music director at the UMC and she said they never leave their equipment scattered out like that. She said "this is a church. And you can walk in there at any time and see that it's a church! Over there, it's a rehearsal hall!"
I'm not crazy about "contemporary" music. We have a contemporary choir that sings at some Saturday masses. I cringe every time I have to participate in "their" mass!
I was raised on "Amazing Grace," "Old Rugged Cross," and the like. That is what I equate to "church" music. Beautiful old songs. Now I'm really starting to feel old.
Beth
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DrDave
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Posted: Sat Feb 2nd, 2008 12:31 am |
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I, like totally agree with Kayla, I think the vast majority of contempory Christian music should be excluded from the mass.
CONSTITUTION ON THE SACRED LITURGY SACROSANCTUM CONCILIUM wrote:
120. In the Latin Church the pipe organ is to be held in high esteem, for it is the traditional musical instrument which adds a wonderful splendor to the Church's ceremonies and powerfully lifts up man's mind to God and to higher things.
But other instruments also may be admitted for use in divine worship, with the knowledge and consent of the competent territorial authority, as laid down in Art. 22, 52, 37, and 40. This may be done, however, only on condition that the instruments are suitable, or can be made suitable, for sacred use, accord with the dignity of the temple, and truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.
121. Composers, filled with the Christian spirit, should feel that their vocation is to cultivate sacred music and increase its store of treasures.
Let them produce compositions which have the qualities proper to genuine sacred music, not confining themselves to works which can be sung only by large choirs, but providing also for the needs of small choirs and for the active participation of the entire assembly of the faithful.
The texts intended to be sung must always be in conformity with Catholic doctrine; indeed they should be drawn chiefly from holy scripture and from liturgical sources.
As 120 says, I don't think that electric guitars are suitable, or that 40 years of contemporary Christan music has made them suitable for sacred use in accord with the dignity of the temple or that they truly contribute to the edification of the faithful.
Indeed it seems that some churches have been built over the last 40 years with the express intention of lowering the dignity of the temple(as if that were possible) to the level of the electric guitar. But that is another topic.
I think the idea of a contemporary worship service outside mass is an excellent one, and one I have raised several times. Unfortunately the response I usually get to such a suggestion is along the lines of "We have trouble getting Catholics to come 1 hour a week, and you're asking for more? No we need to include contemporary music in order to keep the people we have"
I wonder if the music is the only thing keeping them coming back is that a good enough reason to keep it?
Regards Doc
____________________
NB: 'DrDave' is a nickname from college not and indication of academic achievement.
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Tina in Ashburn
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Posted: Sat Feb 2nd, 2008 05:40 pm |
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I agree with Kayla, JillD and Beth. And DrDave! thanks for quoting what the Church teaches.
The Church has written countless documents on the most perfect choices for music, why that music has its place, and how it is to be expressed.
The Church defines what is acceptable at Mass. It is not up to us. Sacred liturgical music is not about self-expression, self-indulgence or performing for the congregation. Just as the Mass is a conversation between the priest and God, music at Mass is also conversation with God at Mass, because this music is a PART OF THE MASS. The congregation is simply privileged to hear this exchange.
A clear understanding of music at Mass can never be achieved without studying and deeply understanding what the Mass really is.
First and foremost, the Mass is a conversation between the priest and God, which the laity is privileged to hear.
Music correctly done at Mass simply sings the texts of the prayers of the Mass. For instance, the 'entrance antiphon' we sing as the priest enters is actually a replacement for the priest praying the entrance antiphon [a.k.a the Introit of the 'old' Mass]. Correctly done, more in line with the desires of the Church, this song would not be a hymn, but the text of that specific prayer chanted.
We have control over what we "will" to believe and over our behavior. We have less control over what music occurs at Mass. This is what makes this subject so difficult to discuss. Without the support of an educated priest, efforts to correct bad music behavior is almost impossible. It is important to understand that just because certain behaviors seem popular or widespread does not mean the behavior is correct. That can also be defined as a widespread "abuse".
However, anyone who does have control over music at Mass should be studying what the Church teaches about music. To continue to subject attendees, and God, to popular whims without educating themselves and accepting Church teaching is less than perfect. This behavior reminds me of those who won't read up on the Catholic Catechism because they simply don't want to know so that they don't have to consider the pain of changing their behavior.
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Tina
Arlington Diocese
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Feb 2nd, 2008 06:05 pm |
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Tina in Ashburn wrote: Music correctly done at Mass simply sings the texts of the prayers of the Mass. For instance, the 'entrance antiphon' we sing as the priest enters is actually a replacement for the priest praying the entrance antiphon [a.k.a the Introit of the 'old' Mass]. Correctly done, more in line with the desires of the Church, this song would not be a hymn, but the text of that specific prayer chanted.
A proper liturgist will prayerfully read not only the scripture readings, but also the prayers and chants, and use them as a guide in musical selection. Especially at the entrance and communion, the antiphons proscribed in the liturgy make an excellent starting point in musical selection. Unfortunately, I don't think most musicians even know they exist.
Some music can be used generically at certain points in the mass. "O Lord I Am Not Worthy" or "Look Beyond" are appropriate communion songs at any time, although they should be superseded by music specific to the liturgical theme of the mass when possible. Unfortunately, it's easier to sing the generic stuff all the time, or to substite seasonal music that has nothing to do with the liturgical action taking place at the time. During Christmas, what does "Silent Night" have to do with communion?
OK, enough ranting for one day...
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Annie
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Posted: Mon Feb 4th, 2008 06:31 pm |
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Tina in Ashburn wrote: First and foremost, the Mass is a conversation between the priest and God, which the laity is privileged to hear.
This is a point which is sadly missing at most parishes around here these days.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
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Faramir
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Posted: Tue Feb 5th, 2008 05:38 am |
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Maybe this is me just being a counter-cultural college student, but I just want to remind those who are not fans of contemporary worship styles to remember that at one point the pipe organ, violin, trumpet, and pretty much every instrument except the human voice was as "modern" as the electric guitar is now, so longevity or (little-t) tradition shouldn't be the only considerations regarding worship music (otherwise our worship music would be made by banging rocks together).
So the cultural connotations, the mood it sets, the makeup of the audience, etc. should also be considerations regarding worship instruments and music styles. I certainly agree that there is lots of really bad contemporary music, but keep in mind that there is also lots of really bad older music, as well as really good music of both types (some of my favorite worship songs are classic hymns). I don't think that older generations should automatically label contemporary music as "undignified", nor should my generation automatically label traditional music as "boring"; even though some music of those styles may not appeal to certain people, that does not mean that to other people those styles can be very moving and worshipful. I would like to imagine that someday "No One Like You" by David Crowder Band may be a classic hymn alongside "Amazing Grace".
____________________
"Almost the whole of Christian theology could perhaps be deduced from the two facts: (a) That men make coarse jokes, and (b) That they feel the dead to be uncanny."
- C.S. Lewis, Miracles
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Tina in Ashburn
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Posted: Wed Feb 6th, 2008 07:27 pm |
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Faramir wrote: cultural connotations, the mood it sets, the makeup of the audience, etc. should also be considerations regarding worship instruments and music styles.
Steve, it doesn't matter what you or I think. We must obey the Church's Authority.
Most Protestant denominations emphasize picking music based on personal taste, popular habits, and opinion but in the Catholic Church there are decrees, traditions, schools and instruction on what should be part of the Liturgy. There's a paradigm difference between being your own authority and looking to the Church as the Authority.
____________________
Tina
Arlington Diocese
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Jackie
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Posted: Mon Feb 11th, 2008 04:03 pm |
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I like both options. Choir or contemporary. Like being able to choose between hearing Mass in Latin or current form.
Some days I'm in a solemn mood and some days sooo joyfilled I wanna scream from the pew!! With some parishes having 10 scheduled Masses a weekend, couldn't that fit too? Sorta like our teen Mass or folk Mass. Both the same yet speaking to the community assembled.
But you are very right Jill, the music (or anything else for that matter) should never take our focus away from the alter but should infact enhance the total worship. IMHO ------- J
Oh and I can't wait ta hear what candlemass has to say 
Last edited on Mon Feb 11th, 2008 04:04 pm by Jackie
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Big Dog
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Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 06:17 am |
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Wow so I was raised in the Catholic church and I am, well to say the least, concerned to see that so many people are afraid of change. Does the Bible not say we should dance and sing praise to God?
I thought we went to church to build our faith. I am not sure I understand where going to church became a place I go to watch a conversation between the priest and God.
Faramir I would agree completely that contemporary worship music has a place right along with traditional hymns. I want to attend a church where I can be excited about building my relationship with our savior. A church where our priest is teaching me about Gods word, sharing how I can build a relationship with the savior. Worshiping God is the job of each and everyone of us!
Shout Praises to the Lord, everyone on this earth. Be JOYFUL and SING as you come in to worship the Lord!
(Psalm100 vs.1,2)
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Intercessor
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Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 12:36 pm |
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Hi, William. Welcome to the forum.
I'm looking forward to seeing how folks respond to your post. 
I can't resist asking if you have found a Catholic parish in which singing and dancing are part of the service? I'm almost afraid to hear the answer.
God bless.
____________________
Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials. . .the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life. . . NAB James 1:2-4,12
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Big Dog
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Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 03:11 pm |
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Phoebe,
Well thanks for the welcome as I am sure some people will not be as eager to greet me. I am sure you will not be surprised to know that I have not found a Catholic church where they dance, and I will be honest not sure that there is a place for dance in church. That being said I do feel strongly that we as a church should take a look at contemporary praise and worship. I see the church offering Spanish Mass in many areas throughout the United states. Why can we not have a mass that offers a more contemporary music base.
Since when did going to church become so robotic. This is ridiculous, I continually hear our priest talk about being more evangelical in our lives. To share with those around us, to bring people back to the church, yet when I walk into the church I often question why I am there, People are not excited about their relationships with God, so many are merely there becasue it is part of their routine... this is so sad.
I am strong in Faith, but frustrated with Religion.
Tell everyone on this earth to sing happy songs in praise of the Lord! Psalm98,vs.4
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Intercessor
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Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 03:50 pm |
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Big Dog wrote:
Since when did going to church become so robotic. This is ridiculous, I continually hear our priest talk about being more evangelical in our lives. To share with those around us, to bring people back to the church, yet when I walk into the church I often question why I am there, People are not excited about their relationships with God, so many are merely there becasue it is part of their routine... this is so sad.
I am strong in Faith, but frustrated with Religion.
Do you enjoy attending Adoration, William?
I would agree with you that religion is all vanity (as Ezeziel speaks of vanity) if we lose sight of Christ. When I lose sight of His beauty, holiness, Truth, perfection, mercy, justice, goodness, love, self-sacrifice, omniscience, omnipotence, creativity, mystery, and eternal nature---when I lose sight of all that and of how He calls me to Himself and calls me to die to self so that He can live in me, then it is truly all vanity.
Time in private Adoration--just looking, in silence, at Jesus while He looks at me--helps me keep clear on why I go to Mass and what my attitude should be while I am there. I love Him so much, but my heart breaks with longing to love him more deeply and to be transformed into His image. During the Mass I have an opportunity to thank Him for His great sacrifice and to present myself as a living sacrifice. Nothing is more important. Nothing is more exciting.
BeckyLast edited on Fri Feb 15th, 2008 05:04 pm by Intercessor
____________________
Consider it all joy, my brothers, when you encounter various trials. . .the testing of your faith produces perseverance. Blessed is the man who perseveres in temptation, for when he has been proved he will receive the crown of life. . . NAB James 1:2-4,12
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 06:36 pm |
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Big Dog wrote: Phoebe,
Well thanks for the welcome as I am sure some people will not be as eager to greet me. I am sure you will not be surprised to know that I have not found a Catholic church where they dance, and I will be honest not sure that there is a place for dance in church. That being said I do feel strongly that we as a church should take a look at contemporary praise and worship. I see the church offering Spanish Mass in many areas throughout the United states. Why can we not have a mass that offers a more contemporary music base.
Since when did going to church become so robotic. This is ridiculous, I continually hear our priest talk about being more evangelical in our lives. To share with those around us, to bring people back to the church, yet when I walk into the church I often question why I am there, People are not excited about their relationships with God, so many are merely there becasue it is part of their routine... this is so sad.
I am strong in Faith, but frustrated with Religion.
Tell everyone on this earth to sing happy songs in praise of the Lord! Psalm98,vs.4
Trust me, we're always eager to meet and greet new members, whether we agree with them or not. We're all here because we love our God and our faith, even though we're on vastly different parts of our journey.
Catholic churches, unfortunately, tend to put music nearly last in the scheme of things. It's not contemporary music that's the problem; it's that the contemporary music is usually done badly.
A Protestant church will devote more of its resources to things like lighting, sound, instrumentation, and even talent. A Catholic church is frequently older, designed around an altar not a set of drums, has a cheap sound system, poor lighting and accoustics, etc. And the "band" is usually comprised of whoever they can get, often high school students rather than paid professional musicians, as you'll often find in Protestant churches. Music is seldom planned by someone who understands liturgy, and rarely ties in with the rest of the worship. You're likely to hear, "It's Lent, let's play 'Hosea'" whether it has anything to do with the liturgy that Sunday or not.
In general, long-time Catholics are OK with that. We understand that the music is not central to our worship. We're happy to see the kids involved. But for those coming from a Protestant mega-church with a rock-star pastor and a band made up of actual musicians and directed by a qualified and paid music minister, it can be quite a shock.
As for dance, liturgical dance is not part of American culture. We're not talking about joyful exuberance, but staged displays of ballet or something like that. I've seen liturgical dance performed by Vietnamese teens in a traditional setting, and it was absolutely gorgeous. I've also been to masses where the music and setting and spirit was so strong you literally couldn't sit still and had to stand up and jump around, and that's OK.
But those are for special things, like Eucharistic conferences, or charismatic conferences, and they're perfectly OK. But to try to put something like that in a typical parish with a typical priest is a travesty.
On the other hand, every cathedral has an excellent traditional choir, so it's relatively easy to find good solemn music, some contemporary and some not. Did you know the favorite song among Catholics is Be Not Afraid, and the second is Holy God, We Praise Thy Name? One contemporary, one anything but. And both have their place in liturgy.
A parish should do what it can do decently, not put it out there just to have it. But at the same time, we need to let our kids be kids, and if we can get them together once a month to do a "youth mass" we need to let them do it so they can feel like a part of the parish too. Otherwise they'll end up at the Church of What's Happenin' Now!
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Annie
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Posted: Fri Feb 15th, 2008 06:45 pm |
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About "liturgical dance," which is never allowed in the United States:
From Notitiae the publication of the Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship:
Introducing dance into the liturgy in the United States would be to add "one of the most desacralized and desacralizing elements" leading to "an atmosphere of profanity, which would easily suggest to those present worldly places and profane situations. Nor is it acceptable to introduce into the liturgy the so-called artistic ballet because it would reduce the liturgy to mere entertainment" (Notitiae 11 [1975] 202–205).
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Annie
Ora et labora
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CajunRick
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