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RCMusicGuy
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| Joined: | Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 23 |
| First Name: | Ron | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Roman Catholic Convert |
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Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 08:14 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: RCMusicGuy wrote: Actually, I am in agreement with you, Rick, except on the meaning of SJV's statement.
We can't ask him, Ron, so we'll have to agree to disagree.
 Yes, I guess we can't! Rick, from what I have read from your variety of posts thus far, I can say (and have) I agree with your many explanations and answers and your liturgical sense. It is just this one quote that we interpret differently...a very small issue...all is well.
Regards, Ron
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1714 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 09:02 pm |
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David, I don't know how the "power of intercessory prayer" has anything to do with my interpretation of what St. John Vianney said. In any case, since you asked, no, I do not reject such power and I do not have a more comprehensive explanation such as the "invincibility of an evil will."
Intercessory prayer is the act of praying for another. In this case, it would be praying for the priest. St. John Vianney has suggested that intercessory prayer will help keep a priest holy, by means of the grace which is called down upon him. There is, then, no secret connection. Either one believes in intercessory prayer or he does not; either one prays or he does not.
To say that prayer is infallible (and in itself it is) is not to say that the human heart will not follow its own will (and in the concrete prayer is not infallible). On the other hand, you seem to misunderstand the requirement. It is not merely to “pray more,” but to “pray enough.” In this I think we have something to learn from the Gospel (Luke 18:1–8) about what is “enough.” It is not an impossible ideal, but neither is it a matter of how many hours one puts into the project.
In days gone by, I have heard priests say that there is no such thing as a bad woman, but that there are many women who have been given a poor example to follow. This is said, they aver, because women are naturally pious. While such words may be an exaggeration, there is some truth to them. In like manner, it is difficult for a man to be ordained a priest while never having given his heart and soul to God. So for him to “go bad” involves a much steeper decline than if you or I were to commit a mortal sin.
If my mother, good soul that she is and knowing that I am in moral danger, has prayed that I may not commit a mortal sin, this prayer will be efficacious unless I thwart it by ill will. In like manner, if she prays for the parish priest to remain faithful, only a stubborn will to disobey can prevent it. Is this not how divine grace works?
David
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RCMusicGuy
Member
| Joined: | Sat Feb 23rd, 2008 |
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| Posts: | 23 |
| First Name: | Ron | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Roman Catholic Convert |
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 02:03 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: David, I don't know how the "power of intercessory prayer" has anything to do with my interpretation of what St. John Vianney said. In any case, since you asked, no, I do not reject such power and I do not have a more comprehensive explanation such as the "invincibility of an evil will."
Intercessory prayer is the act of praying for another. In this case, it would be praying for the priest. St. John Vianney has suggested that intercessory prayer will help keep a priest holy, by means of the grace which is called down upon him. There is, then, no secret connection. Either one believes in intercessory prayer or he does not; either one prays or he does not.
To say that prayer is infallible (and in itself it is) is not to say that the human heart will not follow its own will (and in the concrete prayer is not infallible). On the other hand, you seem to misunderstand the requirement. It is not merely to “pray more,” but to “pray enough.” In this I think we have something to learn from the Gospel (Luke 18:1–8) about what is “enough.” It is not an impossible ideal, but neither is it a matter of how many hours one puts into the project.
In days gone by, I have heard priests say that there is no such thing as a bad woman, but that there are many women who have been given a poor example to follow. This is said, they aver, because women are naturally pious. While such words may be an exaggeration, there is some truth to them. In like manner, it is difficult for a man to be ordained a priest while never having given his heart and soul to God. So for him to “go bad” involves a much steeper decline than if you or I were to commit a mortal sin.
If my mother, good soul that she is and knowing that I am in moral danger, has prayed that I may not commit a mortal sin, this prayer will be efficacious unless I thwart it by ill will. In like manner, if she prays for the parish priest to remain faithful, only a stubborn will to disobey can prevent it. Is this not how divine grace works?
David
David, this seems to be getting more complicated from what I see as a simple interpretation of a quote. I know what intercessory prayer is; I am not questioning that, so I do not know why it was brought up. I believe in intercessory prayer and its meaning and realize that Vianny was eluding to such prayer, but, again, that is not my concern here. Furthermore, I am not misunderstanding anything. I said both, "pray more," and "pray enough" in my posts.
With that said, I have searched your post for the answer to my question: "what is your interpretation of the quote?" I don't see a clear answer, only to say, "St. John Vianney has suggested that intercessory prayer will help keep a priest holy." So, by simple deduction, if there is not enough "intercessory" prayer, a priest might then not keep himself holy. So, then, if a priest goes bad, Vianny is saying it is because the people did not pray enough for him. If that is the case, David, then you agree with my interpretation. Taking it one step further, Vianny is placing blame on the people for not praying enough for a priest which I think is bunk. All the prayers and all the divine grace given upon a priest does not always prevent a priest's "stubborn" will to deliberately do something wrong; but, I think from what I read, you agree.
You said:
"In like manner, it is difficult for a man to be ordained a priest while never having given his heart and soul to God. So for him to “go bad” involves a much steeper decline than if you or I were to commit a mortal sin."
Personally, I disagree with that statement. In this rather "weird" world (for lack of a better word), I could definitely see a man "play" the part of a holy man. It is evident in the priests we have heard about before who "play" the holy role for all to see, who have a "another" life that is hidden until caught. Anyway, if a man plays the part of "having given his heart and soul to God," because he may desire the life of a priest for whatever reason, he will study and be ordained. It is almost like the couple preparing to marry. He says, yes it would be nice to marry and "I love her, I think." "But, over the years I know that we will really fall in love;" so they marry. In this scenerio, the priest does not have a steeper decline than your or I.
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