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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1227 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Mar 11th, 2008 07:40 pm |
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The "Protestant" words will be in blue.
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Nona the Non-Denominational Protestant: I don't get it, Peter, why Catholics keep putting up with the same old empty form prayers and rituals every Sunday at Mass. Don't you ever have the desire to grow in the Lord, and feel God's presence and praise Him exuberantly?
Peter the "Papist": How do you know that all Catholics don't "feel" anything, or desire to grow? That seems pretty judgmental to me. Sure, many Catholics are nominal and spiritually cold, but we don't have a monopoly on that characteristic, not by a long shot!
Nona: I can say that because the Mass is just vain repetition, which Jesus condemned in Matthew 6:7. Since it isn't spontaneous, it can't be from the Holy Spirit, but merely a dead tradition of men. It's not alive and spiritual, like our service. We're on fire.
Peter: I think that you make a lot of unwarranted conclusions. First of all, repetition in and of itself isn't always a bad thing. You overlook the fact that Jesus says vain repetition. Vain (Gk., battalogeo in Matthew 6:7) means "to repeat idly, or "meaningless and mechanically-repeated phrases," as in pagan (not Jewish) modes of prayer. So the Lord is condemning prayers uttered without the proper reverence or respect for God. As usual, He is concerned with the inner dispositions of the worshiper (see, for example, Isaiah 1:11-15, Matthew 7:20-23, 15:9), not with outward appearance, as you seem to emphasize. God sees the heart.
Besides, if repetition itself were wrong, Protestants are as guilty of it as we are. Lutherans, Anglicans and Methodists are just as liturgical as Catholics, with Presbyterians not far behind. All have form prayers and creeds, such as the Nicene Creed, which are repeated every Sunday. Even the Baptists have a set routine they stick to.
Nona: Don't lump me in with them; I'm a non-denominational Christian. I'm not a "Protestant." That's just a label and tradition of men. I go by the Bible alone.
Peter: Evangelical Protestants are always saying that they're merely following the Bible's clear teaching, but that's a whole 'nother subject. Anyway, pentecostal, charismatic, "Spirit-filled" services are just as repetitious as more liturgical, ordered churches. Your position amounts to a plain old prejudice against written, traditional prayer.
This proves too much, since the Lord's Prayer, and many of the Psalms would become vain repetition as well; for example, in Psalm 136, the same exact phrase is repeated for 26 straight verses! Since Scripture is "God-breathed," if you're correct this would mean that God Himself indulged in the very practice which He condemns elsewhere.
Nona: Well, I guess you've got a point there, but I still say that our services are more on fire since they're led by the spontaneous leading of the Spirit.
Peter: Having participated in both types of worship, I can tell you that your services -- edifying as they may be -- have just as much form and repetition, consciously or not, as anyone's. The music and prayer portions always seem to last the same amount of time, and then comes prophecy, the collection, a 45-minute sermon, and so on. The praises almost invariably are "Praise you Jesus," "Hallelujah," "Glory to you Lord," over and over. The prophecies vary little.
I heard a "prophecy" on two occasions at my church where a person blurted out, "I am the alfalfa and the Omega" (see Revelation 1:8,11)* [laughs]. If Catholic worship is supposedly so "dead," I could say that informal worship can be excessively emotional and sometimes downright silly -- not always "spiritual." No Christian group is above criticism, or unable to benefit from others in many ways.
[* Actual experience of the author, who was a "non-denominational," charismatic evangelical Protestant.]
Nona: You know, I've never thought about all this in the way you have. But I've been on both sides, too. When I was Catholic, I used to get so bored at Mass. I wasn't convicted or challenged. It was so dry and meaningless, and the homilies left much to be desired. I never heard the gospel till I got saved 12 years ago.
Peter: I don't know how you could never get challenged or not hear the gospel. At every Mass there are four lengthy Bible readings from the Old Testament, the Psalms, the Gospels, and the Epistles -- far more than at Protestant services. Sure, the homilies aren't generally as interesting and "meaty" (in a certain sense) as Protestant ones. I admit that you guys win hands down today when it comes to fiery, stirring oratory, but as an adult, you can easily read all the theology and sermons you want.
The potential for learning is unlimited. For example, if you want great preaching and food for thought from Catholics, I suggest you read the sermons of St. Augustine, or St. John Chrysostom, or John Henry Newman. Evangelicals love to read Scripture; they could benefit by reading the works of great Christians of the past also. There is a long, fabulous Christian heritage just waiting to be discovered by each Christian.
Nona: Perhaps you're right about that, but isn't the purpose of going to church to get fed and to gear up for the following week, with all its problems and stress? I need to be exhorted and encouraged.
Peter: Those aspects are valid, but I would say with all due respect, that being "fed" is for spiritual babes (1 Corinthians 3:1-2, Hebrews 5:12-14). The rest of us can feed ourselves. The Mass requires some work and active participation, as Vatican II stresses. The word liturgy means work of the people.
The informed, committed Catholic doesn't go to church primarily to "feel good," "get fed," or to "get moral support," but to engage in the work of worshiping God with his whole being, including the mind (Luke 10:27), and to receive Him in communion. Even if one doesn't "feel" anything, it is worthwhile to be obedient to God and worship Him simply for Who he is.
Nona: I-um . . . maybe I've been too harsh on Catholics, and judgmental. I suppose Mass wasn't all bad all the time. Perhaps I was uninformed and lax, and didn't make enough effort to learn its true meaning.
Peter: You know, Nona, there are charismatic Masses which combine both traditional and contemporary worship, kind of "the best of both worlds." They're usually a little more spontaneous, and have more lively worship singing (I admit, Catholics generally sing terribly or not at all!). Yet, the structure of the Mass and liturgy is respected and not violated. You might like the homilies a little better, too.
Nona: I have to admit you've really challenged me to examine some of my positions. I'll have to think about this some more. Thanks, and let's discuss this again.
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Ali
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| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
| Location: | Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 622 |
| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 12:08 pm |
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Hey, it's like a chick track. Only nicer.
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Robert
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 12th, 2007 |
| Location: | Germany |
| Posts: | 65 |
| First Name: | Robert | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | The whole spectrum from black to white, now 100% Catholic! |
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 01:11 pm |
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Hey Dave,
that was almost as good as you proof of sola scriptura.
I do however think that the dialog is just this side of being utopian.
Nona didn't mention Mary once and avoided what John Martigoni calls the "Doctrinal Dance"  
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Always be prepared to give an answer to everyone who asks you to give the reason for the hope that you have. But do this with gentleness and respect (1 Peter 3:15)
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1227 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 06:38 pm |
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That's cuz Nona is already on her way to the Catholic Church, based on the principle of G.K. Chesterton that as soon as one starts being fair to the Catholic Church, they leave themselves wide open to being convinced of its truths.   
Actually, I'm heartened to see that my portrayal of a Protestant is characterized as "utopian". It means I am bending over backwards to be fair to them and not making them out to be dullards or dunces. Nona is a charitable, inquisitive Protestant. But she is -- without a doubt -- plenty critical of Catholicism:
". . . why Catholics keep putting up with the same old empty form prayers and rituals every Sunday at Mass. Don't you ever have the desire to grow in the Lord . . ."
"the Mass is just vain repetition, which Jesus condemned in Matthew 6:7. Since it isn't spontaneous, it can't be from the Holy Spirit, but merely a dead tradition of men. It's not alive and spiritual . . ."
"I never heard the gospel till I got saved 12 years ago."
I wasn't interested in presenting an anti-Catholic (though thinking there is no gospel in Catholicism comes quite close to that), because they don't really dialogue at all (as I know so well, believe me, from long, dreary experience of unsuccessfully attempting to interact with them for 17 years). And they are generally far more rude and uninformed than Nona was. In most exchanges with anti-Catholics, there is nothing worth preserving, except to show how dead wrong they are, and to illustrate the theological, biblical, historical superiority of the Catholic position.
So I went right down the middle, with an ex-Catholic Protestant highly critical of Catholicism, but probably not anti-Catholic.
Lastly, any former Catholic who comprehended to a fair degree what goes on at Mass, would know that there are no prayers to the Blessed Virgin, and so wouldn't make a issue of it. That would come with regard to the Rosary, which, of course, is not part of Mass. I didn't want to make Nona out to be a complete ignoramus about her former affiliation.
Last edited on Wed Mar 12th, 2008 06:43 pm by Dave Armstrong
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1227 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
| Status: |
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Posted: Wed Mar 12th, 2008 06:57 pm |
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Hey, it's like a chick track. Only nicer.
This is right on the mark (format-wise, not content-wise!), because these short dialogues I prepared some years ago were intended to be part of some cartoon tracts that I helped create, with my friends Dan Grajek and Joe Polgar. This Rock (Feb. 1994) did an article about them, stating:
On this page and the next is an example of a CIL tract; the title is "The Resurrection: Hoax or History?" As you can see, the drawings are clever, and this little tract gives Jack Chick some competition. Bonus: It and the others incorporate a quirky sense of humor absent in Fundamentalist literature. CIL tracts have the further advantage of being true.
CIL = Catholic Information League (our name for this apostolate)
That particular tract was done by Dan and I in 1985, when we were both Protestants, and I was involved in campus missions. Grotto Press offers all of the "cartoon tracts" for sale. The late Fr. John A. Hardon. S.J., was our theological advisor.
I was the sole or primary author of the text of five of these (all art by Dan Grajek; co-editor Joe Polgar): The Cloud of Witnesses, The Resurrection: Hoax or History?, The Class Struggle, Mary: Do Catholics Have a Biblical View?, and Joe Hardhat, the Quintessential Catholic: On Justification.
I no longer make any royalties on these (nor do my friends), so there is no self-interest in this "plug." But perhaps someone might find this lighthearted method of communication helpful in sharing their faith with Protestants.
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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