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brian
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Posted: Wed Nov 29th, 2006 03:51 am |
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i went to a parish which seemed really good and orthodox, but a few things intrigued me. one, they did not seem to kneeel back down after the Lord's Prayer. and some of the parishioners did not kneel 9most actually) after receiving? is this optionnal, or do some parishes do it differently?
also they incensed the altar and the congregation before the communion liturgy? i liked it but i was not sure if this is also a typical thing for some?
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BodRod
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Posted: Wed Nov 29th, 2006 09:33 am |
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Hi Brian,
<<they did not seem to kneeel back down after the Lord's Prayer.>>
In my parish, the members distribute the elements of communion (or receive a blessing) after the Our Father (Lord's Prayer) following which we return to the pews and kneel. We Eucharistic Ministers return to our pews after we have completed our duties and we kneel until the remaining Host is placed in the tabernacle. 
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Nov 29th, 2006 09:42 am |
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The incense is good and proper whenever greater solemnity is desired. It is in the missal and the GIRM.
The not kneeling has to do with the fact that some bishops have interpreted a recent Vatican instruction to mean this. The people are therefore obeying their bishop. However, the Vatican has clarified that it did not mean that people should not kneel; they are definitely allowed to do so. This is therefore a grey area.
Standing before the prayer of the people at the offertory (“May the Lord receive the sacrifice at your hands…”) instead of after it is a similar case that you may see from time to time.
Fortunately, there are only a few bishops who have mandated these apparent misunderstandings in their dioceses, and eventually the miscommunications will be cleared up. You can see that Pope Benedict has been working on liturgical matters very strongly, and so has the USCCB. I expect to see a gradual clean-up in years to come.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Nov 29th, 2006 12:30 pm |
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brian wrote: i went to a parish which seemed really good and orthodox, but a few things intrigued me. one, they did not seem to kneeel back down after the Lord's Prayer. and some of the parishioners did not kneel 9most actually) after receiving? is this optionnal, or do some parishes do it differently?
The matters you ask about are governed by the General Instructions of the Roman Missal (GIRM) which you can find here.
The particular section that governs posture is in Chapter II, paragraph 42-44. I have highlighted some parts in boldface type:
Movements and Posture
42. The gestures and posture of the priest, the deacon, and the ministers, as well as those of the people, ought to contribute to making the entire celebration resplendent with beauty and noble simplicity, so that the true and full meaning of the different parts of the celebration is evident and that the participation of all is fostered. Therefore, attention should be paid to what is determined by this General Instruction and the traditional practice of the Roman Rite and to what serves the common spiritual good of the People of God, rather than private inclination or arbitrary choice.
A common posture, to be observed by all participants, is a sign of the unity of the members of the Christian community gathered for the Sacred Liturgy: it both expresses and fosters the intention and spiritual attitude of the participants.
43. The faithful should stand from the beginning of the Entrance chant, or while the priest approaches the altar, until the end of the Collect; for the Alleluia chant before the Gospel; while the Gospel itself is proclaimed; during the Profession of Faith and the Prayer of the Faithful; from the invitation, Orate, fratres (Pray, brethren), before the prayer over the offerings until the end of Mass, except at the places indicated below.
They should, however, sit while the readings before the Gospel and the responsorial Psalm are proclaimed and for the homily and while the Preparation of the Gifts at the Offertory is taking place; and, as circumstances allow, they may sit or kneel while the period of sacred silence after Communion is observed.
In the dioceses of the United States of America, they should kneel beginning after the singing or recitation of the Sanctus until after the Amen of the Eucharistic Prayer, except when prevented on occasion by reasons of health, lack of space, the large number of people present, or some other good reason. Those who do not kneel ought to make a profound bow when the priest genuflects after the consecration. The faithful kneel after the Agnus Dei unless the Diocesan Bishop determines otherwise.
With a view to a uniformity in gestures and postures during one and the same celebration, the faithful should follow the directions which the deacon, lay minister, or priest gives according to whatever is indicated in the Missal.
44. Among gestures included are also actions and processions: of the priest going with the deacon and ministers to the altar; of the deacon carrying the Evangeliary or Book of the Gospels to the ambo before the proclamation of the Gospel; of the faithful presenting the gifts and coming forward to receive Communion. It is appropriate that actions and processions of this sort be carried out with decorum while the chants proper to them occur, in keeping with the norms prescribed for each.
Silence
45. Sacred silence also, as part of the celebration, is to be observed at the designated times. Its purpose, however, depends on the time it occurs in each part of the celebration. Thus within the Act of Penitence and again after the invitation to pray, all recollect themselves; but at the conclusion of a reading or the homily, all meditate briefly on what they have heard; then after Communion, they praise and pray to God in their hearts.
Even before the celebration itself, it is commendable that silence to be observed in the church, in the sacristy, in the vesting room, and in adjacent areas, so that all may dispose themselves to carry out the sacred action in a devout and fitting manner.
All postures are optional. No one can force me to stand when I choose to kneel. However, it is part of our common tradition of worship that we stand, sit and kneel together unless prevented by a good reason. The elderly, parents holding a sleeping child, those with physical problems in their knees or legs, etc., may sit when others are kneeling. Those standing in a crowded church may stand at the Eucharistic Prayer when others are kneeling, etc.
Once those exceptions are taken into account, the diocesan bishop determines how to interpret postures in his diocese. The GIRM says we stand at the Orate Fratres (Pray Brethren). My bishop and many others have decided we should stand before the prayer (right after the priest purifies his hands) rather than rising during the prayer. The GIRM says people should stand for the Eucharistic Prayer, but the bishops of the U.S. (with Vatican approval) have determined that kneeling is a more appropriate posture here. The GIRM says the people should kneel from the end of the Agnus Dei (Lamb of God) until entering the communion line, but an individual bishop may determine otherwise. The GIRM says the people may sit or kneel after receiving communion, but the traditional action of kneeling until the Eucharist is returned to the Tabernacle is what happens in my parish.
Common posture is a sign of obedience to the local bishop, and it is the rule of the local bishop that matters. If you're attending mass in another diocese, you should follow the actions of the assembly as a sign of your obedience. If everyone else stands after the Agnus Dei, you should do the same.
also they incensed the altar and the congregation before the communion liturgy? i liked it but i was not sure if this is also a typical thing for some?
Incense may be used at any mass. It's use is governed by the GIRM as well:
Incensation
276. Thurification or incensation is an expression of reverence and of prayer, as is signified in Sacred Scripture (cf. Ps 141 [140]:2, Rev 8:3).
Incense may be used if desired in any form of Mass:
- During the Entrance procession;
- At the beginning of Mass, to incense the cross and the altar;
- At the Gospel procession and the proclamation of the Gospel itself;
- After the bread and the chalice have been placed upon the altar, to incense the offerings, the cross, and the altar, as well as the priest and the people;
- At the showing of the host and the chalice after the consecration.
277. The priest, having put incense into the thurible, blesses it with the sign of the Cross, without saying anything.
Before and after an incensation, a profound bow is made to the person or object that is incensed, except for the incensation of the altar and the offerings for the Sacrifice of the Mass.
The following are incensed with three swings of the thurible: the Most Blessed Sacrament, a relic of the Holy Cross and images of the Lord exposed for public veneration, the offerings for the sacrifice of the Mass, the altar cross, the Book of the Gospels, the Paschal Candle, the priest, and the people.
The following are incensed with two swings of the thurible: relics and images of the Saints exposed for public veneration. This should be done, however, only at the beginning of the celebration, after the incensation of the altar.
The altar is incensed with single swings of the thurible in this way:
The cross, if situated on or near the altar, is incensed by the priest before he incenses the altar; otherwise, he incenses it when he passes in front of it.
The priest incenses the offerings with three swings of the thurible or by making the sign of the cross over the offerings with the thurible, then going on to incense the cross and the altar.
Specific instructions on incensation are scattered throughout the GIRM. A search on the word "incense" or "incensation" will bring up all the references.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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brian
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Posted: Wed Nov 29th, 2006 02:29 pm |
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| I guess what confuses me, is that I would have thought all the parishes in my area would be under the same bishop and therfore need to do these things in a similar fashion?
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Nov 29th, 2006 02:48 pm |
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brian wrote: I guess what confuses me, is that I would have thought all the parishes in my area would be under the same bishop and therfore need to do these things in a similar fashion?
Well, that sort of depends on where you live and who is your bishop.
I have four dioceses within 40 miles of my house. I live in Louisiana, in the Diocese of Houma-Thibodaux, but I am not too far from the Diocese of Lafayette, the Diocese of Baton Rouge, and the Archdiocese of New Orleans.
But even within a particular diocese, bishops differ. Some bishops "micro-manage" things such as postures; others are less structured and are willing to offer guidance but leave the decisions up to deans or pastors. When Church documentation refers to "the bishop" the actual decision is often made by others and the bishop just signs off on it. This may seem wrong, but in fact nearly everything in life works the same way. An instruction may come down from the home office of a major corporation, but the local manager is the one who explains it to the employees, and the employees are the ones who actually put it into effect.
Sometimes the word comes down, but people don't actually do it. Many parishes in our diocese still hold hands at the Our Father, even though the Vatican, the USCCB, and our bishop have decreed otherwise. In some parishes, the priest instructs people not to hold hands; in others, the pastor doesn't want to fight that battle so he lets them do what they want. It only takes a couple of years for a practice to become ingrained. Within a couple of generations it becomes "always". When we stopped holding hands at the Our Father, a young adult asked me why we were changing something we had "always" done!
Ethnic influences can have an effect, too. In Europe, Catholics tend to stand during the Eucharistic Prayer, so a Catholic church in an ethnic neighborhood may follow the practices of their ancestors rather than their bishop, and as long as they have his permission, it's perfectly OK.
Respect and reverance are much more important than the practices in an individual parish. When visiting, express your Catholicity by following the practice at the mass you're attending, and all will be well.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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brian
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Posted: Thu Nov 30th, 2006 07:33 pm |
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i also noticed after incensing th host, he incensed us. he sort of bowed to us and we bowed to him and then he shook the incense at us..is this a typical action?
and did you mean that i should display my catholicity by practicing the practice at the mass i am attending that very momnet, or by practicing the way i have been at the mass i generally attend?
and if it is the former, there probably could come a time when not to participate if i thought maybe something was more than a little off.
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RCWarrior
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Posted: Sun Mar 25th, 2007 10:17 am |
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What I miss is when we use to kneel when saying "Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world, have mercy on us" etc..a couple of times I knelt and didn't cae if I were the only one kneeling. I want to still do that, as I sometimes feel compelled to do so. I use to for about a year kneel on one knee to receive the Eucharist because out of respect, that is the Lord in front of me, I could never bow to the Lord if he were to appear to me in a human form, so why can't I kneel when receiving him? Then my kees started to hurt after a while and I just decided to make the sign of the cross and then bow to receive.
My priest sometimes blesses me right there , and I am the only one because he feels a connection with me and the story I had told him in the Conversion stories here at CHNI.
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I know God won't give me anything I can't handle; I just wish he didn't trust me so much---Mother Teresa
If you invoke The Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you----St. John Vianney
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wmschrader
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Posted: Sun Mar 25th, 2007 04:07 pm |
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If you live near Boston you might visit St. Theresa Church Convent Chapel, West Roxbury , MA 02132 Here is the link to there web site:
http://www.locutor.net/
THE CONGREGATION OF SAINT ATHANASIUS(High) Mass is at 10:30 The Parish is of Anglican Use and you will be kneeling at communion!
____________________
Bill
Glory be to God for all things
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RCWarrior
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Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2007 10:25 am |
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| Thank you for that information. Sounds like a beautiful church but I can never go anywhere else but my church because of a strong connection to it. Unless I am away on vacaton, I will attend another parish. And it must be a Catholic church.
____________________
I know God won't give me anything I can't handle; I just wish he didn't trust me so much---Mother Teresa
If you invoke The Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you----St. John Vianney
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2007 12:53 pm |
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RCWarrior wrote: And it must be a Catholic church.
The Congregation of St. Athanasius is a Catholic church. The liturgy is Anglican use as approved by Pope John Paul II, but it is fully Catholic and any Catholic may worship there and receive the Eucharist. There are other Anglican use Catholic churches around the country, most in Texas, that you can read about at http://www.anglicanuse.org.
Remember, in spite of the term "Anglican" these are Roman Catholic churches fully in union with Rome.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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RCWarrior
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Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2007 05:31 pm |
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| Oh, I did not know this. Why then simply call it a Catholic church? Where is the difference in the service that it cannot be labeled Catholic? I guess out of all the religions I've studied, I overlooked Anglican. Please explain.
____________________
I know God won't give me anything I can't handle; I just wish he didn't trust me so much---Mother Teresa
If you invoke The Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you----St. John Vianney
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2007 06:05 pm |
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RCWarrior wrote: Oh, I did not know this. Why then simply call it a Catholic church? Where is the difference in the service that it cannot be labeled Catholic? I guess out of all the religions I've studied, I overlooked Anglican. Please explain.
It is labeled "Catholic".
There are 23 "Catholic" Churches including the Roman Catholic, Byzantine Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, Coptic Catholic, Syro-Malabar Catholic, Chaldean Catholic, Maronite Catholic, etc. Within each Church there are many Rites, and even more Liturgies. For example, a Byzantine Catholic Church might use the Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom or the Liturgy of St. Basil. Roman Catholic Churches typically use the Liturgy of Pope Paul VI (what is commonly called the "Novus Ordo", or the older Liturgy of Pope Pius X (the so-called "Tridentine Rite"), but there other liturgies approved as well. All of these are valid, approved expressions of the Catholic faith in worship.
Pope John Paul II approved a specially modified liturgy for Anglican/Episcopal congregations that joined the Catholic faith. It is called "Anglican Use". It's sort of a cross between the typical liturgy of Pope Paul VI and the Anglican high church liturgy. It uses a modified version of the Anglican Book of Common Prayer called the Book of Divine Worship. Again, this was all approved by Pope John Paul II, and is a legitimate expression of the Catholic Faith.
The Congregation of St. Athanasius mentioned above is not large enough to have its own church, so it meets at the St. Theresa Catholic Church Convent Chapel. Many churches feature diverse liturgies in many languages, and some ethnic or faith-based communities share facilities with larger Roman Catholic parishes. Some Anglican Use parishes in Texas are quite large and have constructed their own facilities. Our Lady of the Atonement in San Antonio, TX, even has its own school.
Anglican Use is part of the Latin Church (what we typically call Roman Catholic) and any Catholic may attend mass and receive sacraments there at any time and for any reason. With papal permission, married Anglican/Episcopal clergy have also been admitted to the Catholic priesthood, and a special seminary for married men studying for the priesthood is located in Pennsylvania. Most of the Eastern and Oriental Catholic Churches also allow married men to become priests and deacons.
There are other liturgies in the Latin Church as well, including some used only in particular cities or countries. Many were supressed, but Vatican II encouraged the return to traditional styles of worship, and Pope John Paul II in particular facilitated the use of forms of worship other than the Latin Church.
When we cross Rites (say, to attend a Byzantine Catholic Church) we may receive Eucharist, Penance, and Anointing of the Sick, but the Sacraments of Initiation (Baptism, First Eucharist, First Communion) and Service (Holy Orders and Matrimony) are normally restricted to churches of our own Rite.
When we say the word "catholic" means "universal", we mean it. The Catholic Church is much larger than any single expression of faith. It is an umbrella large enough to literally encompass everyone.
If you would like to see the differences and similarities, Our Lady of the Atonement has the Order of Mass according to the Book of Divine Worship online at http://www.atonementonline.com/orderofmass/Rite1.html. You'll notice it is a more formalized liturgy, and you'll recognize some of the terminology from the old Latin pre-Vatican II liturgy. There are many differences, but they are cosmetic. The essentials are the same.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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RCWarrior
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Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2007 06:48 pm |
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How can there be 23 Catholic churches? I understand as you have explained it to me, but in the Creed "There is only one, holy, Catholic and apostolic church". The Roman church is the same as the Catholic church. There are not numerous Catholic churches. I am a Roman Catholic, or I can just say I am a Catholic. Pardon me if I am perplexed as this is what I've learned and this is what I know.
Thank you for that great information. If one day I am on vacation and want to attend Mass and I see Anglican church, I will go there if there isn't a Catholic church around.
____________________
I know God won't give me anything I can't handle; I just wish he didn't trust me so much---Mother Teresa
If you invoke The Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you----St. John Vianney
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2007 07:44 pm |
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RCWarrior wrote: How can there be 23 Catholic churches?
In Catholic understanding the word "church" can mean many things.
The overall Catholic Church is divided into three basic groupings: The Western Church, the Eastern Churches, and the Oriental Churches. Within each group, there are further divisions called Individual Churches. These were reinstated and encouraged at Vatican II in the Decree on the Catholic Churches of the Eastern Rite. Within these informal groupings are the individual Churches. The largest is the Byzantine Catholic Church, but there are more than a score of others stretching from Greece to India. You can find details on the Byzantine Catholic Church at ByzCath, along with links to the other Eastern and Oriental Churches in the United States. There are Orthodox counterparts to most of the Catholic Churches as well (what the Vatican II document calls "separated Churches".
Within each Individual Church are the Particular Churches, which are the dioceses (called Eparchies in the East). This is actually the purest and original form of "Church" as when St. Paul addressed the Church at Corinth, the Church at Thessalonia, etc. Then, within each Paricular Church are the individual parish churches like the one you attend each Sunday.
In the west, we celebrate mass; in the east, they celebrate the Divine Liturgy. It's a different name for the same thing. Western churches have a confessional and some still have a communion rail. Eastern churches celebrate the Sacrament of Penance in the open (but privately) in front of the Icon Wall that separates the sanctuary from the congregation.
I understand as you have explained it to me, but in the Creed "There is only one, holy, Catholic and apostolic church". The Roman church is the same as the Catholic church.
Think of it as being an African American, or an Italian American, or an Irish American. I am a Cajun American. I am just as American as an Irish American, but the nature of my Americanism is different. We all celebrate Thanksgiving, but the chances are you don't do it with a chicken okra gumbo like we do. Neither you nor I are any less American because of it, and there is still only one United States.
And when we speak of Americans, are people from Brazil Americans? Yes, they are. So are Mexicans, Canadians, Cubans, Haitians, Puerto Ricans, etc. We (those of us from the United States) think of Americans as people from our country, but the Americas are the whole western hemisphere from the northernmost tip of Canada to the southernmost tip of Argentina.
The Roman Church is part of the Catholic Church, just like the United States is part of America, but it is the part we commonly refer to when we say "Catholic".
There are not numerous Catholic churches. I am a Roman Catholic, or I can just say I am a Catholic. Pardon me if I am perplexed as this is what I've learned and this is what I know.
I understand, but the truth is that you have only been exposed to a small part of the totality of the Catholic faith. The same is true of almost every other Catholic in the United States. We believe that what we experience each Sunday represents the entire Church, and that's simply not true. The Church is much broader than most of us can experience in a lifetime.
Thank you for that great information. If one day I am on vacation and want to attend Mass and I see Anglican church, I will go there if there isn't a Catholic church around.
No, that's not quite correct. An Anglican Use parish is a Catholic Church and it will say Catholic Church. An Anglican church or even an Anglican Catholic church is not truly a Catholic church and is not in union with Rome. If you have any doubt, just call them ahead of time and ask if they are in union with Pope Benedict XVI (or whoever the current pope might be at the time). Or look them up through the USCCB web site. If the parish is not listed on the official diocesan web site, it's not truly a Catholic church.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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RCWarrior
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Posted: Mon Mar 26th, 2007 10:38 pm |
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Extremely interesting. Pardon me if I just want to follow the Creed with our church being ONE holy, Catholic and Apostolic church. I understand what you are saying, do all these Byzantine and other Catholic churches do exactly the same Mass as it is followed around the world? If the answer is no, I will not except your explanation. If indeed they all celebrate the Mass as it is the same around the world, then I will except it.
I still only believe there is ONE, holy, Catholic and Apostolic church...regardless.
____________________
I know God won't give me anything I can't handle; I just wish he didn't trust me so much---Mother Teresa
If you invoke The Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you----St. John Vianney
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 12:30 am |
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RCWarrior wrote: Extremely interesting. Pardon me if I just want to follow the Creed with our church being ONE holy, Catholic and Apostolic church.
We are one in that we accept the same doctrine and the same faith. However, our traditions are different.
I understand what you are saying, do all these Byzantine and other Catholic churches do exactly the same Mass as it is followed around the world? If the answer is no, I will not except your explanation. If indeed they all celebrate the Mass as it is the same around the world, then I will except it.
There is only one sacrifice of the mass and it took place on Calvary 2000 years ago. All of the Catholic Churches re-present the same sacrifice in the form of a valid priest with valid orders standing in the place of our High Priest, our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, in union with the Holy Father, the bishops, and the faithful.
If you mean do they all say the same words and do the same exact things, then the answer is no. There has never been a time in the history of the Church when all of the Catholic churches in the world used exactly the same liturgy.
If you choose not to accept it, then you are refusing to accept a portion of the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church founded by our Savior through the apostles.
When Jesus said "the two become one flesh" in marriage, he did not mean the two both become men or both become women. He did not mean the two become exactly identical. In marriage, our oneness is accentuated by the differences that complement each other. In the same way, Pope John Paul II called the Eastern Churches the "other lung" of the Catholic Church.
This is the Church that has existed since the days of the apostles, as expressed at Vatican II, and as reinforced by Pope Paul VI, Pope John Paul II, and Pope Benedict XVI most recently when he joined Eastern Catholics for mass in Turkey.
The Catechism mentions the Eastern Churches many times, such as at paragraph 1587 where the Sacrament of Holy Orders in the Byzantine Rite is quoted. Bishops (known as Eparchs) of the Eastern Churches are members of the U. S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. Note for example that the listings for Pennsylvania include the Archeparchy of Philadelphia for the Ukrainians and the Archeparchy of Pittsburg for the Byzantines. The listings for New Jersey include the Eparchy of Passaic for the Byzantines and the Eparchy of Our Lady of Lebanon in Newark for Syraic Catholics.
There is only one Catechism of the Catholic Church, because there is only one set of beliefs. However, the Codes of Canon Law are different for the west and the east. You'll find the Code of Canon Law for the west here, while the Code of Canons for the Oriental Churches can be found here. Both were approved, authorized, and promulgated by Pope John Paul II; the code for the west in 1983, and the code for the east in 1990.
I still only believe there is ONE, holy, Catholic and Apostolic church...regardless.
There is only one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church, but within that Church there are many expressions of faith, and the Latin Rite (the Roman Catholic Church) is only one of them.
And if you don't believe me, you can visit the Q&A section on EWTN's web site and check out the forum on the Eastern Catholic Churches moderated by Anthony Dragna, or the forum on Eastern Christianity at Catholic Answers, or you can visit the Vatican web site of the Congregation for the Oriental Churches, which includes this profile.
Anglican Use is a legitimate expression of the Latin Rite for Roman Catholics who grew up in the Anglican tradition and wish to maintain their own liturgical style. It is a composite of the traditional high church Anglican liturgy and the Catholic Liturgy of Pope Paul VI, duly approved and authorized by Pope John Paul II. It is different, but it is Catholic with valid sacraments, valid orders, and valid Eucharist.
By the way, if you like to watch EWTN, you might have seen Fr. Mitch Pacwa. He is what's known as a biritual priest, permitted to say mass in the Latin Church and the Divine Liturgy in the Maronite Church. A few years ago, EWTN produced a series on the Eastern Churches called Light of the East, which you can purchase from them for $40.00. A sequel, called Light of the East II, was also produced and is also available for $40.00.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
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RCWarrior
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 10:06 am |
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Thank you for that information. The Mass is celebrated around the world in the same words and the same Gospel and the same Readings. It's not that I don't believe you. Of course I do but I find the Roman church WAS the church founded by Christ. The Eastern Orthodox broke off in unity with the pope in 1054. The Roman church is also responsible for everyone's Bible. So if there are "numerous" Catholic churches, I didn't know that. I will stick with Roman Catholic as that was the one founded by Jesus. Catholicism was founded by Jesus Christ.
The Catholic church teaches that the sacrifice of Christ on the cross occurred "once for all"; it cannot be repeated (Heb 9:28). Christ does not "die again" during Mass, but the very same sacrifice that occurred on Calvary is made present on the altar. That's why the Mass is not "another" sacrifice, but a participation in the same, once-for-all sacrifice of Christ on the cross.
I cannot believe there are "numerous" Catholic religions. I've never heard this. I will investigate. Maybe what you mean is they just do some things different, but those things are still Catholic.
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I know God won't give me anything I can't handle; I just wish he didn't trust me so much---Mother Teresa
If you invoke The Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you----St. John Vianney
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 10:18 am |
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RCWarrior wrote: Thank you for that information. The Mass is celebrated around the world in the same words and the same Gospel and the same Readings.
That is true as far as the Roman Catholic Church is concerned. It is not true as far as the other Catholic Churches are concerned.
It's not that I don't believe you. Of course I do but I find the Roman church WAS the church founded by Christ.
No, the Catholic Church was founded by Christ. Peter and Paul founded the Roman Catholic Church, just as Paul founded the Church at Corinth and Antioch, Mark founded the Church at Alexandria, Thomas founded the Church in India, and other apostles founded other Churches. The Roman Catholic Church is one of many equal Catholic Churches.
The Eastern Orthodox broke off in unity with the pope in 1054.
Yes, and the Eastern Catholics are those who returned to union with the pope. They have the same essential liturgy and theology as the Orthodox, except that they accept the pope as their leader.
The Roman church is also responsible for everyone's Bible.
No, the Canon of Scripture was defined much earlier, first at the Councils of Nicea and Constantinople. However, from the beginning, acceptance of the See of Rome was the primary criteria of orthodoxy.
So if there are "numerous" Catholic churches, I didn't know that. I will stick with Roman Catholic as that was the one founded by Jesus. Catholicism was founded by Jesus Christ.
Jesus never went to Rome. The Church he founded was in Jerusalem. Peter and Paul took the faith to Rome, as other apostles took the faith to other population centers.
I cannot believe there are "numerous" Catholic religions. I've never heard this. I will investigate. Maybe what you mean is they just do some things different, but those things are still Catholic.
That is exactly what I mean. The faith is the same. The expressions are different.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
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RCWarrior
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 10:35 am |
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Sorry Cajun but you are wrong. The Mass is celebrated all over the world the same. As far as the Bible, the Catholic church IS responsible for all Bibles given even to the Protestants.
The Catholic church has been the parent, the author and maker under God, of the Bible; that she has guarded it and and defended it all through the ages, and preserved it from error or destruction; that she has ever held it in highest veneration and esteem, and has grounded her doctrines upon it; that she alone has the right to call it her book; that she alone pocesses the true Bible and the whole Bible, and that copies of the Scriptures existing outside of her are partly incorrect and partly defective, and that whatever in them is true, is true because derived from her who alone pocesses the Book in its fuullness and its truth. If they were Catholics, they would love God's Holy Word more and more; they would understand it better; they would adore the Divine Providence that took such a wise and sure means of preserving and perpetuating it; and they would profoundly admire the Catholic church for her ceaseless vigilance, untiring zeal, and unswerving fidelity to the commission entrusted to her by Almighty God.
My expertise is one of the Bible.
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I know God won't give me anything I can't handle; I just wish he didn't trust me so much---Mother Teresa
If you invoke The Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you----St. John Vianney
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 12:53 pm |
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RCWarrior wrote: Sorry Cajun but you are wrong. The Mass is celebrated all over the world the same. As far as the Bible, the Catholic church IS responsible for all Bibles given even to the Protestants.
You are correct. However, it is not the Roman Catholic Church, but the entire Catholic Church, of which the Roman Catholic Church is a part.
My expertise is one of the Bible.
Congratulations. Perhaps you should investigate the history and culture of the entore Church a little further.
I have given you references to the Catechism, Canon Law, Vatican Congregations, reliable sources such as EWTN and Catholic Answers. Perhaps you should consult your priest before you tell other people they are wrong.
This is turning into a debate, and that is not permitted. If you have any further response, please take it private.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
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RCWarrior
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 04:06 pm |
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| Don't you ever think for one second you could be wrong about something? What is your expertise?
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I know God won't give me anything I can't handle; I just wish he didn't trust me so much---Mother Teresa
If you invoke The Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you----St. John Vianney
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 04:29 pm |
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RCWarrior wrote: Don't you ever think for one second you could be wrong about something? What is your expertise?
Oh yes, I am often wrong. That's why I cited independent, reliably Catholic sources which you rejected. I can give no more evidence than the writings of popes and councils, the Catechism, Canon Law, and even EWTN.
My expertise is 40 years of study of the Catholic faith, starting in my seminary days in the 60's and most recently including a Master's level certification in Pastoral Studies from Loyola University in New Orleans, and Master Catechist certification by my diocese. I am currently teaching a course in Church History for my diocese, a course which includes the formation of the various Catholic Churches and the schisms which led to the separation of the Oriental and Orthodox Churches with valid sacraments; the return of members of these Churches into union with Rome; and the formation of Protestant churches without valid sacraments. The cycle continues with members of the Anglican faith returning to union with Rome and the Catholic Churches that feature Anglican Use.
And that's why there is no point in continuing this discussion. You said, "Sorry Cajun but you are wrong." You offered no reason or explanation.
In separate messages you said:
"The Mass is celebrated all over the world the same."
"The Mass is celebrated around the world in the same words and the same Gospel and the same Readings."
And you offered no evidence.
What you say is simply not true, and there is no other evidence available for me to offer to you. That's why I suggested you ask your priest about the Eastern Catholic Churches. Maybe you'll believe him.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
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RCWarrior
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 05:35 pm |
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What evidence do I need to say the Catholic church is celebrated all over the world the same? With the exact same Readings? with your expertise, I shouldn't have to explain this.
By the way, for the first time since the Reformation, the number of Catholics in England may surpass the Anglican population due to heavy immigration from Eastern Europe. (World News BCTV)
I am a member of EWTN.
I also belong to the Catholic League for Religious Rights for Catholics.
____________________
I know God won't give me anything I can't handle; I just wish he didn't trust me so much---Mother Teresa
If you invoke The Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you----St. John Vianney
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 06:08 pm |
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RCWarrior wrote: What evidence do I need to say the Catholic church is celebrated all over the world the same? With the exact same Readings? with your expertise, I shouldn't have to explain this.
Well, it isn't true, so I don't know how you could prove it. I could give you countless examples, but you've already rejected my sources. Each individual Church has its own Lectionary with its own readings. The mass is not even called "the mass" all over the world.
To quote John Paul II in his Apostolic Letter Orientale Lumen (Light of the East):
Since, in fact, we believe that the venerable and ancient tradition of the Eastern Churches is an integral part of the heritage of Christ's Church, the first need for Catholics is to be familiar with that tradition, so as to be nourished by it and to encourage the process of unity in the best way possible for each.
Our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters are very conscious of being the living bearers of this tradition, together with our Orthodox brothers and sisters. The members of the Catholic Church of the Latin tradition must also be fully acquainted with this treasure and thus feel, with the Pope, a passionate longing that the full manifestation of the Church's catholicity be restored to the Church and to the world, expressed not by a single tradition, and still less by one community in opposition to the other; and that we too may be granted a full taste of the divinely revealed and undivided heritage of the universal Church(2) which is preserved and grows in the life of the Churches of the East as in those of the West.
(Emphasis added.)
So I guess since I'm wrong, John Paul II must be wrong, too.
I am a member of EWTN.
You'll find their Q&A on the Eastern Catholic Churches here. Please feel free to copy my messages to Anthony Dragna and ask him how wrong I am. When I did my paper on Eastern Theology and Theosis in my Salvation and Grace course, he was kind enough to review it for me to make sure I was not in error.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
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RCWarrior
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 07:19 pm |
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I do know the Mass is celebrated the same all over the world, in fact when the Mass is said at the Vatican, I already know what the Readings will be because I just heard them at my own Mass that same morning. It is EXACTLY the same. Every Catholic knows this. Anyway, I will ask my priest and get back to you.
My beloved Pope John Paul is talking about the Orthodox churches. They don't even believe in the pope.
____________________
I know God won't give me anything I can't handle; I just wish he didn't trust me so much---Mother Teresa
If you invoke The Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you----St. John Vianney
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 07:23 pm |
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RCWarrior wrote: My beloved Pope John Paul is talking about the Orthodox churches. They don't even believe in the pope.
No, he is not. Read it.
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RCWarrior
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 07:24 pm |
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Also the unity of the CC we hold firmly and defend, especially the bishops who watch over the church, that we may prove that also the episcopate itself is one and UNDIVIDED.
Let no one deceive the brotherhood by lying, let no one corrupt the faith by a perfidious prevarication of the truth. The episcopate is ONE, the parts of which are held together by the individual bishops.
The church is ONE, and the unity of the body IS NOT SEPERATED.
CC 4-6
____________________
I know God won't give me anything I can't handle; I just wish he didn't trust me so much---Mother Teresa
If you invoke The Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you----St. John Vianney
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 07:40 pm |
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I am just curious. Have you read any of the references I cited to you?
Here's another one you might find interesting. It is from the Catholic Encyclopedia of 1917. It's called Eastern Churches. Pay particular attention to Section IIb, "Eastern Catholic Churches".
By the way, the mass at the Vatican is the same as the mass at your parish church because they are both Latin Rite. The mass in other rites is quite different, including the scripture readings. When Pope Benedict visited Turkey and attended a Catholic liturgy of an Oriental Rite (Armenian?), the readings were not the same. He also attended a Greek Orthodox liturgy, where he did not receive communion, but when he attended the Catholic liturgy he was the presiding bishop and did receive Eucharist. The liturgy was conducted at a cathedral built at the house where our Blessed Mother Mary is believed to have lived at Ephesus, if I remember his visit correctly.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
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RCWarrior
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 10:35 pm |
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ok, but here you go again quoting Greek Orthodox liturgy. That is not the same. But that's it.
Like I said, I have my resources coming and I shall tell you what they said. Even tho I already know the answer I want to satisfy you. Peace.
____________________
I know God won't give me anything I can't handle; I just wish he didn't trust me so much---Mother Teresa
If you invoke The Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you----St. John Vianney
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 10:54 pm |
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RCWarrior wrote: ok, but here you go again quoting Greek Orthodox liturgy.
I would truly appreciate you pointing out to me what I have quoted from Greek Orthodox liturgy.
This is what I have quoted, cited, or linked in this discussion:
Vatican II -- Decree on the Catholic Churches of the Eastern Rite
Website of the U. S. Conference of Catholic Bishops
Catechism of the Catholic Church
Catholic Answers web site
EWTN web site
Congregation for the Oriental Churches (part of the Vatican Curia)
EWTN program Light of the East
EWTN program Light of the East II
Pope John Paul II "Orientale Lumen"
Catholic Encyclopedia (1917 Edition) from New Advent web site (Catholic site)
Anglican Use web site (Catholic site)
Pastoral Provision web site (Catholic site)
Our Lady of the Atonement Catholic Church (Catholic site)
The Byzantine Catholic Church in America (ByzCath) (Catholic site) |
I would truly like to know which is Greek Orthodox.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
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beachmoss
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Posted: Tue Mar 27th, 2007 11:14 pm |
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Wow! This has been quite the dialogue!
RC, I'm just curious--how long have you been a Catholic? And you say in your profile that you study religion. Is this a formal study? What exactly are you studying?
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