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Prodigal Daughter
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| Joined: | Wed Nov 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 196 |
| First Name: | Deborah/PD | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptized Catholic, received First Communion, left during Confirmation year. ... |
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Posted: Fri Dec 1st, 2006 03:30 pm |
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After 2+ years back in Holy Mother Church, we have discovered that there is a tremendous amount of disparity among the liturgical and moral practices in local parishes.  At our parish, we have it all...loads of extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist, tons of female alter servers, lots of questionable hymns, the Tabernacle way over to the side, a very modern building with no Crucifix, and a liberal pastor who refuses to put out pro-life literature much less talk about any of the Church's teachings on the subject.
Anyway, our diocese has started a Latin Mass on Sundays in a nearby town. We are tempted to go but do not want to return to our Protestant ways of church hopping for the perfect parish. We are also afraid of getting drawn in by schismatics who do not accept the authority of Rome.
Does anyone attend a parish with a Latin Mass? What are the advantages and disadvantages?
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"Man should tremble, the world should vibrate, all Heaven should be deeply moved when the Son of God appears on the altar in the hands of the priest."
St. Francis of Assisi
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5080 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Fri Dec 1st, 2006 04:24 pm |
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Prodigal Daughter wrote: After 2+ years back in Holy Mother Church, we have discovered that there is a tremendous amount of disparity among the liturgical and moral practices in local parishes. At our parish, we have it all...loads of extraordinary ministers of the Eucharist, tons of female alter servers, lots of questionable hymns, the Tabernacle way over to the side, a very modern building with no Crucifix, and a liberal pastor who refuses to put out pro-life literature much less talk about any of the Church's teachings on the subject.
Some of the practices you describe are not unusual or even improper. Female altar servers are allowed, and current regulations encourage the Tabernacle in a separate, more accessible location away from the altar of sacrifice. There are valid theological reasons for both. Most parishes have "loads of extraordinary ministers" which may or may not be proper depending on the reason and the definition of the term "loads". "Questionable hymns" may mean hymns that represent questionable theology, or just songs you don't like. I'm not really asking for an explanation, just pointing out that the terms you use really don't describe anything except that you are displeased, and that is certainly your right as recognized by Church (canon) law. I can't condone a building with no crucifix or a priest who absolutely refuses to put out pro-life literature, but I'm not there. I don't know the costs involved or the circumstances of the refusal, so I'm not going to comment on those statements. I've certainly seen pro-life literature I would not allow in church! And my little country church, built in 1925, does not have a large crucifix. It was built with a life-size statue of Jesus as the Sacred Heart, and we would have to renovate the entire church to install a large crucifix in a meaningful way. We do have an altar crucifix and a processional crucifix near the altar, but what you see when you walk into the church is Jesus reaching out for you, with love radiating from his heart and showing you his nail-pierced hands. I've attached a picture at the end of this message. You can't tell me our altar is any less reverent because there is no large crucifix.
Having said that, it is important that you find a place to worship that is compatible with your spirituality. That's not "church hopping" because you're not moving because of differences in doctrine. Any Catholic may attend any Catholic Church at any time. That's universality. The mass may be in Latin or English, Spanish or Greek, Lithuanian or Old Church Slavonic, but it's still the mass. It may use the Anglican Use or the Byzantine Rite and call it the Divine Liturgy, but it's still the mass. If the church is listed on your diocesan web site, it is completely proper for you to attend mass there. If in doubt, call the chancery of your diocese and ask!
As to being a member of your own parish, the Church assumes you are a member of the parish in which you live, unless you specify otherwise. Your parish is the one you support financially, the one where your children make their first communion and confirmation, and the one that provides religious education and faith formation. You do not ever have to attend mass at your own parish. For example, because of her work schedule, my wife regularly attends mass on Sunday evening in a neighboring parish. She seldom attends mass in our parish church. But when we're sick and need a priest we call our pastor, and when we write our contribution check, it goes to our parish. (Actually, I don't write checks or put money in the basket. I have it set up on an electronic debit through my bank.)
But if you are going to attend another parish regularly or even most of the time, you really should become a member of that parish. It's as simple as contacting the rectory and registering as a member of the parish. Your reason doesn't matter. Many members of our parish grew up in our community and continue to attend even though they are married and live outside our boundaries.
Anyway, our diocese has started a Latin Mass on Sundays in a nearby town. We are tempted to go but do not want to return to our Protestant ways of church hopping for the perfect parish. We are also afraid of getting drawn in by schismatics who do not accept the authority of Rome.
Again, it's not "church hopping" because the doctrine and teachings are the same. As for getting drawn in by schismatics, if your diocese is sponsoring the mass, you know it's OK. If in doubt, call the chancery!
Does anyone attend a parish with a Latin Mass? What are the advantages and disadvantages?
I have attended Latin masses. I have also attended Byzantine Divine Liturgies and other Catholic expressions of worship. They are all wonderful. I make a deliberate effort to attend mass in a variety of parishes to get new ideas and to be energized by a new community. I particularly enjoyed a parish with a black gospel choir! As an instituted acolyte, I am an Extraordinary Minister of Holy Communion, an organist, and occasional sacristan in my parish, so I don't get to go elsewhere very often unless I want to attend more than one mass on the weekend (which I sometimes do), but I enjoy the opportunity when I can.
But what you'll find is that the language and rite that is used does not determine much. You can have an English mass using the liturgy of Pope Paul VI that is very reverent with people dressed properly and featuring traditional music with a pipe organ and a glorious choir, and you can have a Latin mass with people in shorts and tank tops. The language and rite will have an effect on spirituality and worship atmosphere, but they will not determine it.
Attachment: Picture 002.jpg (Downloaded 72 times)
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Darlene
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Pocono Mountains, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 868 |
| First Name: | Darlene | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Christian, trusting His love and forgiveness |
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Posted: Sat Dec 2nd, 2006 05:03 pm |
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How thrilled I was to see someone from the Lehigh Valley area post in this forum. I lived in Allentown for 17 years. Now I live with my husband and daughter in the Poconos, the Broadheadsville area.
Wouldn't it be nice if we all put our location information in our profiles, so that future users wouldn't have to wonder if others lived in our area but could check it out themselves? After all, since we don't include our full names (and many of us use nicknames), there's no way anyone can track us down!
Just a gentle hint...
Last edited on Sat Dec 2nd, 2006 05:48 pm by
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Prodigal Daughter
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| Joined: | Wed Nov 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Lehigh Valley, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 196 |
| First Name: | Deborah/PD | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptized Catholic, received First Communion, left during Confirmation year. ... |
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Posted: Sun Dec 3rd, 2006 01:08 pm |
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I attended the Latin Mass this morning and it was different. I didn't like it enough to go every week but I can't see how a person could get used to it unless they do go every week. The priest spent a lot of time saying the prayers quietly with his back facing us. I also had a hard time following along in the missal.
The thing I liked most about it was the fellowship time after Mass. I spoke to a family whom I know from other events. They invited me to join a choir on Thursday nights. The choir sings at a Novus Ordo Latin Mass on one Friday a month. I think that will be more in keeping with my needs at this point.
It was good to be with so many people who believe in all of the Church's teachings.
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"Man should tremble, the world should vibrate, all Heaven should be deeply moved when the Son of God appears on the altar in the hands of the priest."
St. Francis of Assisi
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5080 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Sun Dec 3rd, 2006 01:52 pm |
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Prodigal Daughter wrote: I attended the Latin Mass this morning and it was different.
The Church is a very broad tent and it covers us all. Thank God we are "Catholic"!
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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AggieCatholic
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | San Antonio, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 82 |
| First Name: | Lance | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | United Methodist to Roman Catholic (Anglican Use) |
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Posted: Wed Dec 6th, 2006 06:22 pm |
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| I loved attending my first Latin Mass, but I spent more time with my head down trying to follow along in the handy book instead of concentrating on the Mass itself. Don't get me wrong, the Latin was beautiful, I just feel more involved when Mass is in English.
____________________
What part of, "Hoc est enim Corpus meum" don't you understand?
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nonsumdignus
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 7th, 2006 |
| Location: | Phoenix, Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 33 |
| First Name: | Jay | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, "ex-static" to be Catholic! |
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Posted: Sat Dec 9th, 2006 02:22 pm |
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I find the Latin Mass more reverent, more prayerful, a real "worship" experience, as opposed to the chitchat at the N.O. Yes, it takes some getting used to. I read the Latin/English before Mass to prepare myself, then let the Holy Sacrifice sink in as it unfolds. It is awesome. Every word and gesture is pregnant with meaning. The N.O., in my view, has lost the sense of mystery and sacrifice. It's entirely too social. I'm there to encounter Almighty God, not meet my neighbor. I love kneeling to receive the Eucharist. There's no talking before or after Mass in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament, but lots of "fellowship" after Mass in the Church vestibule and outside the Church. Where Christ is Really Present, there is silent adoration, as there should be -- period.
Last night, at the N.O., the priest invited us all to shake hands and wish each other "good evening" at the dismissal and to applaud for the piano player. Grrrrrrrrrrrr. That kind of stuff does not go on at the Latin Mass. Rome has tried repeatedly to stop liturgical abuses (read the GIRM, Redemptionis Sacramentum, and the book on celebrating the Eucharist by Cardinal Arinze, for example) but disobedient priests still insist on "doing it my way." If the N.O. were done according to the mind and law of the Church, there wouldn't be a problem.
Jay
N.O. = Novus Ordo (the "new" Mass)
GIRM = General Instruction of the Roman Missal
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"All the waters of the Elbe would not yield me tears sufficient to weep for the miseries caused by the Reformation." Philip Melanchthon, Luther's cohort, Epistles, Book IV, Ep. 100
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Dec 9th, 2006 02:40 pm |
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nonsumdignus wrote: N.O. = Novus Ordo (the "new" Mass)
I don't mean this to be in any way argumentative, but the term "Novus Ordo" was coined by the "Traditionalists" who believe that the mass of Pope Paul VI is invalid. It is not a proper term for the liturgy revised by Pope Paul VI after Vatican II. The proper term is "the mass" or the "Latin Rite." It may be celebrated in Latin or in the common language of the people, called the "vernacular". Currently, celebration in any language other than the vernacular requires permission of the local ordinary (bishop). Revision of the English version of this liturgy is currently in process.
The so-called "Tridentine Rite" is also misnamed. It is properly called the mass according to the Roman Missal of 1962, or even the liturgy of Pope Pius X, although he was not the last to revise it. Permission for it's use was withdrawn by Pope Paul VI, but restored by Pope John Paul II, with permission of the local ordinary. When such permission is granted, it's called an "indult" leading to the derogatory term "indult mass" by the "Traditionalists". Pope Benedict XVI is reportedly considering removing the requirement that the local ordinary has to give permission to celebrate the mass in Latin.
When I use the term "traditionalist" I am referring to schismatic sects that claim the use of English in the mass invalidated the Church, and that they have "restored" it.
So use of the term "Novus Ordo" to refer to the proper liturgy of the Catholic Church is derogatory and should be avoided.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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nonsumdignus
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| Joined: | Tue Nov 7th, 2006 |
| Location: | Phoenix, Arizona USA |
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| First Name: | Jay | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, "ex-static" to be Catholic! |
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Posted: Sun Dec 10th, 2006 03:23 pm |
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So use of the term "Novus Ordo" to refer to the proper liturgy of the Catholic Church is derogatory and should be avoided.
Thanks for this, Cajunrick. It's news to me. I've read and heard the terms Novus Ordo and Tridentine for years now, and there was nothing derogatory meant about either of them. My understanding is that they're simply nicknames for the two forms of the sacred liturgy. Is there a written directive to this effect somewhere?
Perhaps "Novus Ordo" is like the term "Roman Catholic Church," originally used perjoratively by the Anglicans in the Protestant (so-called) Reformation in England, but now used even by such orthodox priests as John Hardon, S.J., in his Modern Catholic Dictionary, when referring to the Church whose headquarters is in Rome (not just to the Church of the Roman or Latin Rite).
Much obliged, Jay
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"All the waters of the Elbe would not yield me tears sufficient to weep for the miseries caused by the Reformation." Philip Melanchthon, Luther's cohort, Epistles, Book IV, Ep. 100
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Dec 10th, 2006 04:06 pm |
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nonsumdignus wrote: So use of the term "Novus Ordo" to refer to the proper liturgy of the Catholic Church is derogatory and should be avoided.
Thanks for this, Cajunrick. It's news to me. I've read and heard the terms Novus Ordo and Tridentine for years now, and there was nothing derogatory meant about either of them.
I understand, which is why I informed you that they are not proper terms.
The sedevacantists (those who claim the papacy is vacant) claim that the liturgy in place at the time of the Council of Trent is the only official liturgy of the Church (hence the term "Tridentine" while the fact is it was modified dozens of times between Trent and Vatican II. To them, "Novus Ordo" refers to the invalid liturgy put in place by Paul VI who, by virtue of his changes to the liturgy vacated the papacy and invalidated the Catholic Church. Of course, it's a bogus argument. Modifications are made to the liturgy constantly in the Roman Catholic Church, and yet another revision in the English translation is in process right now.
The Eastern Churches, on the other hand, have liturgies in place and virtually unchanged for 1600 years. However, in the RCC, liturgy is a "living" thing and needs constant updating.
By the way, the "Roman Catholic Church" is not an official designation for the Church in Rome. It is the Catholic Church. Benedict XVI is the bishop of Rome, the apostolic see of Peter. Those Churches in union with Rome can properly be called "Roman Catholic" but that would apply equally to the Latin Rite as well as to the Eastern Churches. However, you're right, it has become an accepted term to distinguish those Churches in union with Rome from those churches that broke from the leadership of the pope and accepted the leadership of the king of England.
"Tridentine" and "Novus Ordo" will never be accepted terms because they are simply not specific enough. If the liturgy of the Council of Trent is the basis by which others are judged, then the first "Novus Ordo" came about only two years later. There's an interview here that discusses this in some detail.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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