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Laughing Elf
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| First Name: | Rod | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Methodist, PCA, agnostic, Buddhist, Episcopalian, Methodist |
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 02:38 am |
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I've been away since just before Easter. On Easter Morn when sitting early on the side of a mountain in North Carolina I thought of all of those who had become baptized into the Catholic Church, and thought of those of you on this forum with warm thoughts.
I have a rather petty-silly issue to ask about. It seems petty when thinking of the hurdles that have been climbed (with assistance from many on this forum). Hurdles to my protestant background such as "real presence", "confession", "patron saints", even "indulgences".
It was surprising to find out that it was a mortal sin to miss mass on Sunday. Can you help me understand this. If I were a Catholic it would be my hope to avoid mortal sin as much as possible....yet if missing mass is a mortal sin, I might miss it twice a month!  Yikes, I'd be a regular in confession wouldn't I ?
Breathing slow and listening,
Rod
____________________
"Home is behind, the world ahead,
And there are many paths to tread
Through shadows to the edge of night,
Until the stars are all alight."
Tolkien, LOTR I
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kimdyuma
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 04:23 am |
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It is a mortal sin to just miss Mass, but if you are genuinely unable to get to Mass due to work, really being ill ( as opposed to I feel kind of under the weather but can go to the movies etc). Being away from home and not being within a reasonable distance to a church... I think that is the way I understand it
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DrDave
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 04:25 am |
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Laughing Elf wrote: If I were a Catholic it would be my hope to avoid mortal sin as much as possible....
I would think that as a human you would hope to "avoid mortal sin as much as possible"
I think that to understand this aspect of Catholic teaching requires a fair understanding of a whole bunch of other teachings, so don't feel bad if you can't see the forest for the trees.
In the simple form this issue comes down to one of authority. Think for a few minutes about the Catholic understanding of the phrase "whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven" which Jesus said first to Peter Matt 16:19, and later repeated collectively to the Apostles in Matt 18:18. Basically, "If you say something, people should treat it as if it were Me saying it". Now to be fair, we don't understand the pope to be exercising this authority when saying who he thinks will win the football on the weekend, but we do understand him to be using this authority when promulgating the Code of Canon Law for example.
It should be kept in mind however that the Code deals with disciplines and not doctrines. A simple example to distinguish the difference, 'people should all drive on the same side of the road to avoid collisions' we might call this a doctrine (a teaching) That the U.S. has laws requiring people to drive on the right side, and we in Australia have laws requiring people to drive on the left shows that we have different disciplines but accept the same doctrine.
The current discipline outlined in the Code, promulgated by the successor of Peter is that under normal circumstances, Catholics should attend Mass on Sunday (or the Saturday vigil Mass). There are of course exemptions to this rule (some of which are discussed in this thread).
With all this in mind, the 'grave matter' involved in missing Mass is not simply what many assume, 'failing to enter a particular building at a particular time on a particular day is an intrinsically evil act' but rather what would be the failure to abide by the strictures given us by the Church, which in turn was given us by Christ. When the Catholic fails to take the disciplines of the Church seriously, they fail to take Christ seriously, and that is serious matter.
From there it is necessary to point out that in order for one to commit a mortal sin three things are required. 1 Grave matter (as we have just discussed) 2 Knowledge (knowing that something is gravely wrong) 3 Consent of the Will (freely choosing to pursue the course of action or inaction that one knows to be gravely wrong).
I hope this helps
Regards Doc
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Didi
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 04:26 am |
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When we attend Mass on Sunday we are obeying the commandment to keep holy the Lord's Day. The Catechism says this:
CCC2176: "The celebration of Sunday observes the moral commandment inscribed by nature in the human heart to render to God an outward, visible, public and regular worship as 'a sign of his universal beneficence to all.' (St. Thomas Aquinas) Sunday worship fulfills the moral command of the Old Covenant, taking up its rhythm and spirit in the weekly celebration of the Creator and Redeemer of his people."
Just curious as to why you would have to miss Mass twice a month. Most areas offer several different times for Mass, from 5:00 p.m. or so on Saturday evening through 5:00 p.m. or so Sunday evening. Surely there is a time within this 24-hour period that you could attend Mass?
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 04:27 am |
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It was surprising to find out that it was a mortal sin to miss mass on Sunday.
Well, let’s call it a grave sin; mortal sin is when you commit a grave sin knowingly and wilfully, and up to now you haven’t done that because you didn’t know. And of course you are yet to become Catholic, so the obligation is not binding.
The idea about Mass attendance on Sundays and Holy Days of Obligation (of which there are six in the United States; see this list) comes from the commandment to keep holy the Sabbath. Suggested reading is the Apostolic Letter Dies Domini (“The Lord’s Day”) by Pope John Paul II.
David
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Laughing Elf
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 10:30 am |
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Hi Doc,
Thanks for the doctrine/discipline example. I'm still muddling my way through authority...since in the vast majority of the protestant tradition, "we aint got none"
Too often in my protestant past, we had rules and regulations, but without having any real apostolic succession authority. This territory still feels strange and yes, I do have trouble seeing the forest for the trees.
The thread you mentioned explained beautifully the spirit behind the matter, and the flexibility that is understood.
Didi's reference to the CCC allows me to pull my copy out to read it again.
Thanks also to David in Brownsville for the reference to John Paul II's letter wherein I found this quote:
"The disciples of Christ, however, are asked to avoid any confusion between the celebration of Sunday, which should truly be a way of keeping the Lord's Day holy, and the "weekend", understood as a time of simple rest and relaxation. This will require a genuine spiritual maturity, which will enable Christians to "be what they are", in full accordance with the gift of faith, always ready to give an account of the hope which is in them (cf. 1 Pt 3:15). In this way, they will be led to a deeper understanding of Sunday, with the result that, even in difficult situations, they will be able to live it in complete docility to the Holy Spirit."
Perhaps John Paul II has really put his finger one the pulse of the matter. I really like my weekends....and do not like to obligate myself in advance. Perhaps my true admission is a lack of "...a genuine spiritual maturity...", and that is where work is needed. Shoot, I looked in the mirror and saw something a bit unseemly...
Thanks for exhibiting compassionate concern,
Rod ( still open to the possibility of the RCC )
____________________
"Home is behind, the world ahead,
And there are many paths to tread
Through shadows to the edge of night,
Until the stars are all alight."
Tolkien, LOTR I
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Laughing Elf
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 10:38 am |
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Didi wrote: Just curious as to why you would have to miss Mass twice a month. Most areas offer several different times for Mass, from 5:00 p.m. or so on Saturday evening through 5:00 p.m. or so Sunday evening. Surely there is a time within this 24-hour period that you could attend Mass?
Didi,
As I tried to explain to Doc, my problem is rooted in a spiritual laziness, and at age 53 dealing with aging parents, job pressures, other obligations, etc, I've given my self a "permanent excuse" to do what I want on the weekends (within the limits of prior obligations and all of the routine home chores, duties, etc).
You do touch the matter well regarding the multiple opportunities to make mass. Ironically enough, my wife once commented years ago that going to church on Saturday evening appealed to her.
Years ago, as an Episcopalian living in Louisiana, my favorite service was Sunday evening.
Peace,
Rod
____________________
"Home is behind, the world ahead,
And there are many paths to tread
Through shadows to the edge of night,
Until the stars are all alight."
Tolkien, LOTR I
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Free
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 11:08 am |
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Once you begin to experience the grace from the Eucharist strengthening you each time you receive it, you will begin to think less of the Sunday "obligation" and more of the Sunday "privilege"! Even though I enjoyed Communion Sundays at the Protestant churches I attended, they were NOTHING LIKE receiving Jesus in the sacrament of Eucharist. And I even believed in the Real Presence before I became a Catholic. I believed, and I worked hard to experience intimacy with him when I received the elements in Protestant churches. Now, there is true reciprocity. I go forward with the week's offerings of heartbreak, resentments, sorrows and so forth to give to him, and he takes them and gives me himself, healing me and refreshing me.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 11:39 am |
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Getting beyond the obligation and even personal spiritual benefit, remember that we are the "Body of Christ" and the entire body suffers when one of its members is missing.
Wouldn’t you miss your finger? Ever lose a tooth? Even if you can live without it, it's a noticeable distraction.
We have an obligation to our Christian family to be present except for the most serious reasons.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Laughing Elf
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 12:18 pm |
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Free wrote: Once you begin to experience the grace from the Eucharist strengthening you each time you receive it, you will begin to think less of the Sunday "obligation" and more of the Sunday "privilege"! Even though I enjoyed Communion Sundays at the Protestant churches I attended, they were NOTHING LIKE receiving Jesus in the sacrament of Eucharist.
Jane,
That light is what is shining through the trees on the moonless night. I've been tugged in that way for years...........you'd think I'd be running at full speed by now  .
Peace,
Rod
____________________
"Home is behind, the world ahead,
And there are many paths to tread
Through shadows to the edge of night,
Until the stars are all alight."
Tolkien, LOTR I
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Laughing Elf
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 12:22 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: Getting beyond the obligation and even personal spiritual benefit, remember that we are the "Body of Christ" and the entire body suffers when one of its members is missing.
Wouldn’t you miss your finger? Ever lose a tooth? Even if you can live without it, it's a noticeable distraction.
Rick,
Ouch  ! Your point is clearly made, my friend.  The mystical "Body of Christ" is so organic and live in your perspective. That is the perspective to which I'm drawn......and yet seemingly so distant.
Blessings,
Rod
____________________
"Home is behind, the world ahead,
And there are many paths to tread
Through shadows to the edge of night,
Until the stars are all alight."
Tolkien, LOTR I
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 07:00 pm |
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Hi Rod,
Recently I compiled a list of articles that go more deeply into the "why's" of the Sunday obligation. Maybe some of them can be of use to you:
Why Is It a Mortal sin to Miss Mass?, Fr. Ray Ryland, This Rock, July 2000.
Forget Mass? Not a Mortal Sin, Karl Keating, This Rock, Nov. 2003.
FAQ About Sunday Obligation: Not Going to Mass (Catholic Doors Ministries)
Sunday Obligation, Jimmy Akin
Fulfilling the Sunday Obligation on Saturday (+ Part Two), Jimmy Akin
Our Sunday Obligation, Maureen Kelly
There Are Reasons to Miss Mass, but Not Many Valid Ones, Fr. Matthew Mitas
See also The Catechism of the Catholic Church: #2168-2195.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Didi
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Posted: Wed Apr 9th, 2008 10:36 pm |
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A few years back I was listening to "The Mass Explained" by Fr. Larry Richards (highly recommended and available at http://www.catholicity.com).
Fr. Larry was talking about Jesus at the Last Supper in Luke's gospel where He says to his apostles: "I have earnestly desired to eat this passover with you..." (Luke 22:15)
This is what Jesus says to us as well! He earnestly desires to share Himself with us at every Mass! Are you ready to accept His invitation? Why would we not want to go??!!
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BillK
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 01:09 am |
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I have to make this quick so some details may be fuzzy... Checkout Hebrews 10, especially vs. 25. If you consider that the Mass is a sacrifice, Pauls letter seems to be saying something very significant about "failing to assemble". I can see how this might mean failing to gather in the liturgical assembly. Check it out and let me know what you think.
Bill
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Laughing Elf
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 02:20 am |
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Dave Armstrong wrote: Hi Rod,
Recently I compiled a list of articles that go more deeply into the "why's" of the Sunday obligation. Maybe some of them can be of use to you:
Why Is It a Mortal sin to Miss Mass?, Fr. Ray Ryland, This Rock, July 2000.
Forget Mass? Not a Mortal Sin, Karl Keating, This Rock, Nov. 2003.
FAQ About Sunday Obligation: Not Going to Mass (Catholic Doors Ministries)
Sunday Obligation, Jimmy Akin
Fulfilling the Sunday Obligation on Saturday (+ Part Two), Jimmy Akin
Our Sunday Obligation, Maureen Kelly
There Are Reasons to Miss Mass, but Not Many Valid Ones, Fr. Matthew Mitas
See also The Catechism of the Catholic Church: #2168-2195.
Dave,
You must know that I truly love to read. Thanks for the references .
If only I could stop working 40-45 hours a week, then there would be plenty of time to read. 
Rod
____________________
"Home is behind, the world ahead,
And there are many paths to tread
Through shadows to the edge of night,
Until the stars are all alight."
Tolkien, LOTR I
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Laughing Elf
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 02:28 am |
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BillK wrote: I have to make this quick so some details may be fuzzy... Checkout Hebrews 10, especially vs. 25. If you consider that the Mass is a sacrifice, Pauls letter seems to be saying something very significant about "failing to assemble". I can see how this might mean failing to gather in the liturgical assembly. Check it out and let me know what you think.
Bill
Hi Bill,
Hebrews 20:25 (NIV) "Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. "
I'm not an exegetical scholar so my reading is subject to what I've encountered in this text. It sure sounds like Paul is trying to encourage the Church to remain together, encourage each other, spurring "each other toward love and good deeds" (v24).
I don't see a commandment here (v25), but a wise and powerful suggestion.
My mind is still open here, so I'm interested in your thoughts as well.
Peace,
Rod
____________________
"Home is behind, the world ahead,
And there are many paths to tread
Through shadows to the edge of night,
Until the stars are all alight."
Tolkien, LOTR I
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Laughing Elf
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 02:33 am |
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Didi wrote: A few years back I was listening to "The Mass Explained" by Fr. Larry Richards (highly recommended and available at http://www.catholicity.com).
Fr. Larry was talking about Jesus at the Last Supper in Luke's gospel where He says to his apostles: "I have earnestly desired to eat this passover with you..." (Luke 22:15)
This is what Jesus says to us as well! He earnestly desires to share Himself with us at every Mass! Are you ready to accept His invitation? Why would we not want to go??!!
I've got no arguement with you there, Didi.
I guess that perhaps my journey has over emphasized the intellectual quest and paid too little attention to the heart.
Thanks,
Rod
____________________
"Home is behind, the world ahead,
And there are many paths to tread
Through shadows to the edge of night,
Until the stars are all alight."
Tolkien, LOTR I
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japhy
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Posted: Thu Apr 10th, 2008 10:28 am |
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Furthermore, the Mass is the corporate worship of God by the Body of Christ. As a Member of that Mystical Body, it is your duty to worship God along with the rest of the Body. Sunday (because they are mini-Easters) and holy days of obligation (because the Church has instituted them to keep us mindful of the various mysteries in the life of Christ) are the days when the whole Body is called together to worship.
In other words, it's not just you and God, it's the whole Body of Christ and God.
____________________
[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
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BillK
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Posted: Fri Apr 11th, 2008 04:54 am |
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Laughing Elf wrote: BillK wrote: I have to make this quick so some details may be fuzzy... Checkout Hebrews 10, especially vs. 25. If you consider that the Mass is a sacrifice, Pauls letter seems to be saying something very significant about "failing to assemble". I can see how this might mean failing to gather in the liturgical assembly. Check it out and let me know what you think.
Bill
Hi Bill,
Hebrews 20:25 (NIV) "Let us not give up meeting together, as some are in the habit of doing, but let us encourage one another—and all the more as you see the Day approaching. "
I'm not an exegetical scholar so my reading is subject to what I've encountered in this text. It sure sounds like Paul is trying to encourage the Church to remain together, encourage each other, spurring "each other toward love and good deeds" (v24).
I don't see a commandment here (v25), but a wise and powerful suggestion.
My mind is still open here, so I'm interested in your thoughts as well.
Peace,
Rod
Rod – I am by no means a scholar either (thank the Good Lord for the deposit of faith and Magesterium!!!). I’d heard this before in some Catholic CD I was listening to. I don’t remember all the details but will try to explain a bit more now that I have some time.
Paul is talking about the ineffectiveness of the old sacrificial system because the blood of bulls and goats could not take away sin (10:3). Then he goes on to point out that we are made holy “through the sacrifice of the body of Jesus Christ once for all” (10:10). The Didache (c. 90 A.D.) describes the early Christian liturgical assembly as a sacrifice as do many of the Church fathers. To me, the context of chapter 10 is Paul talking about the new sacrificial system replacing the old. He talks about how we may enter into the sanctuary (previously reserved for only the High Priest) by the blood of Jesus through the curtain, his body (10:19-20). He also talks about drawing near to God with sincere heart and assurance of faith …. with hearts sprinkled to cleanse us .. and bodies washed with pure water (10:22). (blood, flesh, water – sounds a lot like the principle sacraments of the Eucharist and Baptism). Then in v.25 he exhorts to not neglect to meet together. I’d be curious to see what the Greek word is for this. Is Paul talking about a liturgical celebration or just gathering together for fellowship? If the former, I would think he is talking about an early form of the sacrifice of the Mass. If we fail to gather for this sacrifice of the Mass, then the following verse makes more sense to me “If, after we have been given knowledge of the truth, we should deliberately commit any sins, then there is no longer any sacrifice for them” (10:26 NJB). I hate to admit it but on occasion, I sin deliberately and I sure hope through Jesus sacrifice and through repentance, I can still be forgiven. I wonder if “deliberately commit any sins” means deliberately skipping this liturgical assembly?
Maybe I’m completely wrong about this or maybe these verses can be interpreted both ways. Any one else care to chime in???
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