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NorthStar
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| First Name: | Chuck | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Roman Catholic, Evangelical, Orthodox |
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Posted: Sun Aug 10th, 2008 06:04 pm |
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Ok, I went to Mass this morning, as right now I don't have a car and my Orthodox parish is 35 miles away, and the people I usually ride with are on vacation.  I've been to the Catholic parish quite a few times over the past 8 months (maybe once a month since gas is so expensive and it's cheaper to walk 1 mile than drive 35) and I have a brief question.....
During Communion, all the people file up, one line goes to the left, the other line goes to the right. As the reach the end of the Church and are about to walk back down the outer wall back to their spot in the pews, on each side there were these 2 guys (not vested so I don't know what to call them I guess they are Eucharistic ministers) holding a chalice. Most people walked past, but a few people took the cup and drank whatever was in there.
So, what the heck is that? lol! Is it like in the Russian Orthodox Church where people will drink a bit of wine to make sure the Eucharist is completely swallowed down? Or was this actually the blood of Christ? And if so, I thought the RCC didn't allow that? (i've also seen the Eucharistic ministers be given the cup before everyone else takes Communion)
Any answers would be great. Thanks...and sorry for what probable seems like a stupid question. however if you've got any questions about the Byzantine Liturgy, I'm the man to come to...LOL!
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JasPax
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Posted: Sun Aug 10th, 2008 06:27 pm |
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NorthStar wrote:
During Communion, all the people file up, one line goes to the left, the other line goes to the right. As the reach the end of the Church and are about to walk back down the outer wall back to their spot in the pews, on each side there were these 2 guys (not vested so I don't know what to call them I guess they are Eucharistic ministers) holding a chalice. Most people walked past, but a few people took the cup and drank whatever was in there.
Hello Chuck:
The two guys you mentioned were lay Eucharistic Ministers. The chalices they held contained the blood of Christ. Since the body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ is in both species, it is not necessary that communicants partake of both. Some do, some don't.
God's Blessings,
____________________
James
"Abide in me, and I in you..." John 15:4
"He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him." John 6:56
RSV-2CE
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Aug 10th, 2008 06:51 pm |
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The Catholic Church’s Latin Rite (Ordinary Form) has the option to offer the chalice (Blood of Christ) as well as the host (Body of Christ). It is well understood from the Council of Trent that receiving under both species is not necessary; hence the people who did not receive from the chalice. The Extraordinary Form (the old Latin Mass) does not offer the chalice. However, as the Catechism of the Catholic Church states:
1390 Since Christ is sacramentally present under each of the species, communion under the species of bread alone makes it possible to receive all the fruit of Eucharistic grace. For pastoral reasons this manner of receiving communion has been legitimately established as the most common form in the Latin rite. But “the sign of communion is more complete when given under both kinds, since in that form the sign of the Eucharistic meal appears more clearly.” This is the usual form of receiving communion in the Eastern rites.
The Catholic Church’s Byzantine Rite, like the Greek Orthodox, offers communion under both species via intinction, served on a golden spoon. Furthermore, in all Catholic rites, it is possible for celiacs and others allergic to wheat or gluten to receive the chalice alone.
Historically, there have been local customs where a swallow of wine or water “washes down” the Eucharist. I am not aware of any currently existing rite or custom within the Catholic Church where this is allowed, but it is a question of discipline, not doctrine, so it is certainly a possible method.
No question is “stupid.” We accept the fact that many aspects of the faith, especially obscure points of rites, history, customs and folklore, would not be known even by observant Catholics if they had not specifically studied these things.
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NorthStar
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| First Name: | Chuck | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Roman Catholic, Evangelical, Orthodox |
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Posted: Sun Aug 10th, 2008 11:03 pm |
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Thanks guys!
I knew that both the body and blood of Christ are in both forms, (we see it the same way as well, as infants are usually only given a drop under the form of wine and not the bread) .I was simply under the impression that laymen were not allowed to receive under the form of wine in the Western Church. Now I know, thanks again!
Last edited on Sun Aug 10th, 2008 11:05 pm by NorthStar
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Aug 11th, 2008 01:22 am |
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NorthStar wrote: we see it the same way as well, as infants are usually only given a drop under the form of wine and not the bread
And we see that as well in the Eastern Catholic Churches where infants receive all of the sacraments of initiation, and are given Eucharist in the form of a drop of wine.
In the Latin Church, the sacraments of initiation are separated so that baptism is administered to infants, Eucharist to those who reach the age of reason, and Chrismation (which we call Confirmation) somewhere between the seventh and eighteenth year.
(I know you most probably know this, Chuck, but some Latins reading this thread might be confused by the reference to Eucharist for infants.)
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mrsbmoo
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Posted: Mon Aug 11th, 2008 02:50 am |
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| Does this mean that the infant who gets it all at once, doesn't go through the whole first communion or confirmation thing even if they are attending a Latin rite church by that time? I have a friend whose child was done this to in an Eastern tire church but moved and now attends our latin rite church.
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Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 13 months and 17
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Mon Aug 11th, 2008 03:32 am |
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Apparently so, Becky. I’ve read that Eastern rite families who spend a significant amount of time in Latin rite parishes often run into awkward situations like this. And, of course, vice versa.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Aug 11th, 2008 12:36 pm |
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mrsbmoo wrote: Does this mean that the infant who gets it all at once, doesn't go through the whole first communion or confirmation thing even if they are attending a Latin rite church by that time? I have a friend whose child was done this to in an Eastern tire church but moved and now attends our latin rite church.
There is a similar issue with young people who convert between first communion and confirmation age, especially if they are unbaptized. RCIC rubrics call for them to be baptized, communicated, and confirmed at the same time, so what happens to them when their regular religious education program reaches confirmation age? Do they participate even though they are already confirmed, or do they drop out. or is a special program created just for them?
We've only had the issue come up once, and the young man (a Muslim convert) participated fully in the program and was treated as an "honored guest" at the confirmation ceremony. He was not confirmed again, of course, but was introduced to the bishop along with the rest of his class.
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NorthStar
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Posted: Mon Aug 11th, 2008 03:25 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: NorthStar wrote: we see it the same way as well, as infants are usually only given a drop under the form of wine and not the bread
And we see that as well in the Eastern Catholic Churches where infants receive all of the sacraments of initiation, and are given Eucharist in the form of a drop of wine.
In the Latin Church, the sacraments of initiation are separated so that baptism is administered to infants, Eucharist to those who reach the age of reason, and Chrismation (which we call Confirmation) somewhere between the seventh and eighteenth year.
(I know you most probably know this, Chuck, but some Latins reading this thread might be confused by the reference to Eucharist for infants.)
Yes I did know that, but sometimes I forget that it can be a very foreign concept to some in the Latin rite. I remember listening to Open Line with Fr. Mitch Pacwa one time, and a caller (or email I can't remember) said he was "disgusted" that Orthodox and Eastern Catholics do this. Fr. Mitch tried to explain how the practice is extremely ancient and that it was ok...not that I think anyone here would be disgusted by the idea, I just sometimes forget this is not well known in the West, and I'm glad you clarified for everyone. Thanks.
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NorthStar
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Posted: Tue Aug 12th, 2008 07:44 pm |
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Hey everyone, I just remembered another question I wanted to ask, but forgot until just now.
I noticed a couple times during the Mass, once after the Gospel and once, sometime during the Liturgy of faithful (can't remember if it before or after Communion) there "moments of silence". Exactly what are these meant to be? Are there certain prayers everyone is praying, or are we just supposed to be silent and not pray at all, or what? To me they were quite awkward because in the Byzantine Liturgy (pretty much all the Eastern Liturgies actually) there are no moments of silence like this. And if there is a moment of silence in an Orthodox Church it's usually because the cantor or choir is looking for music, and not for any special purpose, so to me it was a bit awkward. Can anyone explain these moments and did they have them in the Tridentine Mass as well, or just the post Vatican II Mass? Thanks.....
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Aug 12th, 2008 08:53 pm |
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I sounds like you’re referring to the “period of silent prayer” that is encouraged for immediately after communion. It isn’t absolutely required by the rubrics, but most devout Catholics of the Latin rite find it indispensable for bringing the sacrament into focus. If the Byzantine rite has no provision for such a “quiet time,” there may be other considerations that outweigh it in that culture.
This period of silence does not require set prayers; it is “free time” for each communicant to commune with his Lord, physically present within him. Thanksgiving is probably the most predominant interior theme, but sometimes it’s good just to bask in the presence of the Lord. The period of silence is practiced both in the Extraordinary Form (the old Latin Mass) as well as the Ordinary Form (the Paul VI Mass); its use thus spans many centuries.
Here is a rundown from the General Instruction of the Roman Missal (GIRM) on other moments of silence called for in the Ordinary Form of the Latin rite liturgy:
Silence
45. Sacred silence also, as part of the celebration, is to be observed at the designated times. Its purpose, however, depends on the time it occurs in each part of the celebration. Thus within the Act of Penitence and again after the invitation to pray, all recollect themselves; but at the conclusion of a reading or the homily, all meditate briefly on what they have heard; then after Communion, they praise and pray to God in their hearts. Even before the celebration itself, it is commendable that silence to be observed in the church, in the sacristy, in the vesting room, and in adjacent areas, so that all may dispose themselves to carry out the sacred action in a devout and fitting manner.…
The Act of Penitence
51. Then the priest invites those present to take part in the Act of Penitence, which, after a brief pause for silence, the entire community carries out through a formula of general confession. The rite concludes with the priest’s absolution, which, however, lacks the efficacy of the Sacrament of Penance.…
The Collect [Opening Prayer]
54. Next the priest invites the people to pray. All, together with the priest, observe a brief silence so that they may be conscious of the fact that they are in God’s presence and may formulate their petitions mentally. Then the priest says the prayer which is customarily known as the Collect and through which the character of the celebration is expressed.…
By their silence and singing the people make God’s word their own, and they also affirm their adherence to it by means of the Profession of Faith.…
Silence
56. The Liturgy of the Word is to be celebrated in such a way as to promote meditation, and so any sort of haste that hinders recollection must clearly be avoided. During the Liturgy of the Word, it is also appropriate to include brief periods of silence, accommodated to the gathered assembly, in which, at the prompting of the Holy Spirit, the word of God may be grasped by the heart and a response through prayer may be prepared. It may be appropriate to observe such periods of silence, for example, before the Liturgy of the Word itself begins, after the first and second reading, and lastly at the conclusion of the homily.…
After the homily a brief period of silence is appropriately observed.…
163. When the distribution of Communion is finished.…
164. Afterwards, the priest may return to the chair. A sacred silence may now be observed for some period of time, or a Psalm or another canticle of praise or a hymn may be sung.
165. Then, standing at the chair or at the altar and facing the people the priest, with hands joined says, Oremus (Let us pray); then, with hands extended, he recites the prayer after Communion. A brief period of silence may precede the prayer, unless this has been already observed immediately after Communion.
You can see, then, that brief pauses or silences, whose primary purpose is recollection, are common throughout the Mass, and a more extended silence is recommended after communion.
David
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NorthStar
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Posted: Tue Aug 12th, 2008 10:16 pm |
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Thanks David for the information! I pretty much figured that is what the moments of silence were all about, but just wasn't sure.
In the the Byzantine Liturgy there is actually never supposed to be a silent moment, during any Church service whatsoever, with one exception; during the Pre-Sanctified Liturgy (a Vesperal Liturgy where there is no consecration, but instead people receive the Holy Gifts that have been consecrated on the previous Sunday.) The silent moment takes place when the Gifts are carried around the Church while the faithful kneel or prostrate in absolute silence. (except the bells jingling on the censer)) This service takes place during Lent on Wednesdays and Fridays, so my ears are so used to no silence except for that moment, I find it awkward. of course both traditions are equally valid, and certainly the silence gives it a little extra feeling of reverence for what has just taken place....I guess I just found it akward because when there is silence in an Orthodox Church it's because the choir doesn't know what they're doing  (not knowing the hymn of the day or something) so my experience is coming from that POV. 
However after receiving the Eucharist we are supposed to contemplate and meditate on what has just taken place and a Church with a real trained cantor will have an incredibly beautiful melismatic hymn being chanted during Communion, so the music is supposed to set the mood as it were. Sadly there are very few classically trained chanters in the U.S. (I'm a self taught chanter, but have no particular talent for it, so I'm not a model of heavenly chanting to say the least...) Anyways, I'll stop rambling....but thank you for the information. And it makes perfect sense.
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