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JillD
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| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Sun Dec 31st, 2006 02:17 pm |
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| Another difference I've noticed at the Catholic Church I've been attending is that when children get extremely fussy, parents don't take them out. One little girl this morning cried nearly the whole time and was even screaming, but her parents didn't take her out. In most other (non-Catholic) churches I've been in, parents are very sensitive to how this might disrupt the service. What is the thinking on this, or is it just something that happens to be true at this particular parish?
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
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BodRod
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Posted: Sun Dec 31st, 2006 03:14 pm |
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We have a mother's room in my church and the parents of some small children sit in there with their children. Our priests are careful to look in that direction frequently as they speak and when they offer prayers thereby giving the mothers the feeling that they are included in the service. 
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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wvtrucker
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| Location: | Vienna, West Virginia USA |
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| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Dec 31st, 2006 03:19 pm |
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Well,,it's just my thinking but I feel that if it is a particularly boring homily,,then the kid is doing everyone a favor...On the other hand,,if the Priest/Deacon is nailing a really good one then the parents should stuff a sock in the little brats mouth..!!...All in all though,,it really is a relative matter in that it really matters how far away the screaming child is sitting from you... 
I see it as just another attempt by the enemy to distract us,,along with the cellphones that we sometimes forget to silence before Mass and the miniskirts that some women wear to Mass for whatever reason...
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BodRod
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Posted: Sun Dec 31st, 2006 04:20 pm |
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<<<and the miniskirts that some women wear >>>
We have more canes, walkers and wheelchairs at 7:30am Mass.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Dec 31st, 2006 04:35 pm |
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JillD wrote: [size=Another difference I've noticed at the Catholic Church I've been attending is that when children get extremely fussy, parents don't take them out. One little girl this morning cried nearly the whole time and was even screaming, but her parents didn't take her out. In most other (non-Catholic) churches I've been in, parents are very sensitive to how this might disrupt the service. What is the thinking on this, or is it just something that happens to be true at this particular parish?]
It is true, but I can't speak to the difference in other churches. That child is most likely a baptized Catholic too, and has just as much right and need to be there as anyone else.
In my experience, it is usually single parents (single as in without another adult present to assist, not necessarily unmarried) who stay in church. The alternative is for the entire family, including older children, to leave, and that may not be in the family's best interest.
I've mentioned this before, so forgive me if I repeat myself. I once had an exasperated priest complain after mass about a child who cried throughout his homily. He asked me if I thought he should have said anything, and I told him I thought he should have thanked her for choosing life and for bringing her family to church.
A user here had a priest stop mass to order her to leave, and wait while she got up and exited, during what I believe was one of her first visits to a Catholic church. She felt humiliated and embarrassed, and I wouldn't have blamed her if she had given up on the faith entirely at that point. "We have seen the enemy and he is us." Sometimes our priests are our worst ambassadors.
So let the babies cry, and thank God that their parents are bringing them to church.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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BodRod
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Posted: Sun Dec 31st, 2006 06:19 pm |
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<<<......I told him I thought he should have thanked her for choosing life and for bringing her family to church.>>>
That is a great response! I must remember that one and use it when appropriate. Thanks, Rick.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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JillD
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Posted: Sun Dec 31st, 2006 06:56 pm |
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cajunrick wrote: So let the babies cry, and thank God that their parents are bringing them to church.
Hmmm... I also thank God that the parents chose life for their children, but I don't think that the parents should allow the children to cry and scream interminably during Mass. Both parents were there, so one could have easily taken the unhappy girl outside for a bit. It's not the child who is at fault here; youngsters cry and wiggle. But the parents should have had more sensitivity to how disruptive their girl was being. I think it was their bad behavior, not hers. And why is bottom-kneeling so bad, but letting a child cry through 80% of the Mass is not? :? Aren't both showing a lack of reverence for what is happening in the Mass?
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
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Juan
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Posted: Sun Dec 31st, 2006 07:50 pm |
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Hmmm... I also thank God that the parents chose life for their children, but I don't think that the parents should allow the children to cry and scream interminably during Mass. Both parents were there, so one could have easily taken the unhappy girl outside for a bit. It's not the child who is at fault here; youngsters cry and wiggle. But the parents should have had more sensitivity to how disruptive their girl was being.
Good point.
I can only give you my experience. I remember when my children were babies and we would take them to Mass.
I can tell you that every noise our children made seemed "interminable". And the glances from all parishioners all seemed to be "glares".
Then our babies grew older and they behaved in Mass. Other people would bring in babies and their crying seemed interminable and I would glare. And I would comment to my wife, "can't they keep that baby quiet!"
How soon we forget.
But then we accepted that contraception was wrong and we had two more babies and again were in the position of having people "glare" at us when our babies cried in Mass. By then, our Church had a cry room to which we would run for safe haven.
I think you are correct, parents should step outside with their children if they can't calm them in short order. But we should also try to be more understanding.
I think it was their bad behavior, not hers.
I agree.
And why is bottom-kneeling so bad,
Since I do quite a bit of it, I don't think it is so bad. I think the point is that our knees should touch the ground (or kneeler) and that we should humble ourselves by lowering our bodies. Discomfort is strictly optional. That is why kneelers with cushions were invented. To lessen the burden on the knees.
but letting a child cry through 80% of the Mass is not? :?
I suppose it depends on the circumstances. From what you have described, I would say yes, this couple is definitely wrong.
Aren't both showing a lack of reverence for what is happening in the Mass?
Not necessarily.
I think those who are paying so much attention to other people's butts may need to refocus on what is most important.
Sincerely,
Juan
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Dec 31st, 2006 08:19 pm |
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JillD wrote: [size=Both parents were there, so one could have easily taken the unhappy girl outside for a bit.]
If that's the case, then indeed one of the parents should have taken the child outside to settle her down. My parish also has a cry room, so it's seldom an issue. But I would still rather have a crying baby in church than a family at home, if those are the only alternatives.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Luke12:48
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Posted: Sun Dec 31st, 2006 08:26 pm |
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I don't know if there is a right or wrong answer to this but I have always been of the mindset that a little noise and wiggling is normal but if the child really gets out of hand, it's time to go. Mine are usually pretty good but I have seen some who are a handful every week!
I have taken a child out of the church on rare occasions in the past and since my husband does not attend with us, it is me alone taking three or four of them. It can be difficult.
All this being said, I have to say that my beliefs were challenged Christmas eve. I had never been to the Christmas mass at this church and they hold a special children's mass early. My three year old was really acting up. It was time for the homily and the priest had moved a chair up to the middle of the aisle and told the children to gather around him. Three of mine went over and sat down and one just fought and whined (my weak spot-I hate whining) I was about to turn and walk out when Father said all the children should come--even the ones who are crying. Now maybe I am a mom with a soft spot but that really struck me as a "what would Jesus do" moment. Others might be disturbed or distracted by the various children but he not only was not bothered, he proceeded to capture the attention of all the children, draw them in and have a beautiful talk WITH them (not just to them) about the gifts they have to offer and ended singing "Little Drummer Boy" with them. I have never seen anything like this. I already knew he was gifted with the adults but I think even more so with the children.
I know I will think twice before walking out again even if I wonder what they get from being there. Perhaps it is just knowing that being there is so important that we cannot leave that will leave a lasting impression on the child. As for the adults, I understand that it is distracting. It is especially distracting to the parent. I have sometimes gone twice in a weekend so as to be able to put my undivided attention where it belongs. (Even when they are good, I am constantly checking) I don't know what the answer is for everyone but if a child is distracting to me when I am there alone, I try to wait it out or I have moved a few seats away at a not so obvious time. I don't know which is more of a lack of reverence --the child crying or walking out in the middle. "But Jesus said Let the children alone,and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
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susiedear
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Posted: Sun Dec 31st, 2006 10:06 pm |
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Dear Jill, when I first started to attend Mass, I wondered why so many kids were in the service -- what a strange sight for a Protestant who was used to the kids being "entertained" someplace else in the building. It took me a while to get used to having kids in church. I've never experienced having a baby screaming through most of the Mass, but I have children so I know what the screams sound like. It would be distracting and annoying, no doubt, and, yes, it seems reasonable that a parent should have done something.
Still, at those times when I find myself tempted to "glare," I think of my own kids who resist going to Mass because, as my daughter says, "there's nothing for the kids." She doesn't get that being in the presence of Jesus is far more important than watching a VeggieTales video downstairs in the fellowship hall. The toddler who was busy pushing against my legs yesterday will someday believe in the Real Presence of Jesus, so that helps me smile down at him and tell his mom that it's OK.
Elizabeth
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But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. St. Augustine
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mrsbmoo
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Posted: Mon Jan 1st, 2007 12:39 am |
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I am afraid I have a 2 year old who is a terror at Mass. My 3 older girls settled down nicely by 2 but my youngest can't stand to sit still even at home. With a great deal of pressure she can hold it together for about 30 minutes but mass usually lasts about an hour and 15 minutes and that is just too long. Yes, I can discipline her but after one Sunday when I had to take her outside(and I mean outside the building) and restrain her for 20 minutes while she fought me(kicking and hitting and throwing her head back) and screamed so loud that they could hear her in the Sanctuary, I decided she could win this one for a while. If I constantly take her in and out, trying to communicate the idea that making noise and wandering is not Ok, I miss most of the mass, if I take her out and stay out I actually have to leave the building or go to another part of the building and miss the Mass.
So I go to one Mass and my husband goes to another. Sure the church has a crying room but the services are so crowded that it is filled to overflow by the beginning of the service and the doors left open as the commons has to be filled with folding chairs. I had gotten the impression that this was a Catholic practice not to have a nursery but when I visited another parish while on vacation, I found they had a nursery for babies and toddlers. So, my only conclusion is it depends on the culture of each individual parish.
So I guess my conclusion is that although a parent should try not to disturb others with their child, it often works against training the child how to act in church. Like I said my 3 other daughters quickly got with the program but this daughter has a bad temper and has great perseverance. If she is disciplined or thwarted she will throw herself down and beat her head against what ever is nearby. So I want her to stay in our pew, she wants to leave and play. I stop her so she throws herself down and screams. I take her out and let her play, she has just proven that if she screams she gets what she wants. If I take her out and continue to restrain her, she will scream the rest of the service. If I were at home, and she chose to throw a fit, I would passively restrain her while she screamed and she would give up and move on. Perhaps this was the case of the screaming child, maybe they felt if they took her out she would feel her screaming had gotten her what she wanted. Just my thoughts, I know everyone parents differently.
____________________
Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 10 months and 17
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BodRod
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Posted: Mon Jan 1st, 2007 10:57 am |
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Your story reminds me of sitting in church next to my grandmother when I was young, more like 6 rather than 2 or 3 years of age. Lemon drops were among my favorite candies and I knew she had a bag of them in her purse. If I was quiet for awhile, I would get one lemon drop. If I stayed quiet for a period of time I would get another lemon drop. With some effort on my part, I could earn 3 or 4 lemon drops each service (Services ran about 1 hour and 15 minutes each).
If you would like to read more about this procedure and how to adapt it to the age group of your children, check out "Positive Reinforcement Techniques" and "Aristotelian Memory Theory".
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Jan 2nd, 2007 12:55 am |
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A unique lady named Marti Wilson posts something she calls the Penguin Parables on another forum, Catholic Pillar and Foundation. Her stories are awesome, and today she posted one that is somewhat related to this topic. I have gotten permission from the forum operators and from her to repost her Parables here. This one is called:
You better be good or . . .
Copyright 2007 by Marti Wilson
For Christmas, my sweetheart decided to take me home. He booked the flights and made hotel reservations in September. Then he started packing. (Don't laugh -- for him it is never too early to get ready.) We took all the kids with us and the one who is not at home flew in to meet us. It was the 4 day whirlwind tour. We went through the largest gingerbread house ever built. Went to a holiday parade complete with Santa and generally felt pretty merry.
Sunday morning arrives and we head to Mass at the Basilica of St Mary. My children who have been raised in the Baptist belt have never been in such a wealth of Catholic culture. Their eyes are travelling everywhere and there are questions about all manner of things when Mass is concluded. So we walk through this wonderful Basilica and look at everything. When we reach the creche where the most awesome Nativity is set up, my 5 year old stops stares and in almost a panic asks "Where is Baby Jesus?" To which I explain that it is customary not to place the Baby Jesus in the Nativity until Christmas. I conclude with "Tonight at Mass Jesus will come." (Little did I know what a profound effect this had on my 19 year old.)
So, we run around like mad all day fitting everything possible into the day and return to the hotel to prepare for Christmas Eve dinner and Midnight Mass. The concert at the Cathedral of St. Paul began at 10:30. Now, the kids are rubbernecking at all the attributes of the Cathedral. Little Miss 5 falls asleep on the pew but I thought I could expect better from the other children. The two oldest whisper back and forth till I glare at them with my "Are we Baptists, today?" look. (Nothing against the Baptists, but when they qarrive they visit with one another in the pews -- Catholics do not, we must do our visiting outside the sanctuary.) Well my 12 year old son is fidgetting with this and that as he tries to figure out what all the doodads in the pew are. The 19 year old sister leans in and whispers something to him and suddenly they are laughing. That silent uncontrollable laugh that only gets worse as you try to stifle it from exploding into the church. I am mortified!!!
The Bishop is beginning Mass. 
People are praying. 
And my ill-brought up children are laughing uncontrollably (to their credit they kept it silent but it was obvious)!! 
Later, I found out what the deal was. It's Christmas Eve and I had told the children that Jesus would come at Mass. They are excited and gawking and then the 12 year old is fidgetting, so the 19 year old leans forward to say something to get him to correct his behavior. What popped out her mouth surprised her and her brother so much they both lost it:
"Scoot, settle down. You better be good or Jesus won't come."
Now that does not sound so incredibly funny, but the next time you kneel down to pray before Mass do not think about those words or you will start to laugh )I know because it happened to me on this Sunday. I am trying to pray and stifling laughter instead. "You better be good or Jesus won't come."
As it is with most silliness in my world, I contemplate it. There in the silliness was the truth. Every year countless parents tell their kids to be good or Santa will not come. Yet, the kids go along doing as they please and sure enough on Christmas morning Santa has visited and left all manner of toys to spoil those naughty children. Is it any wonder that children have grown up and created religions wherein as long as they say a quick prayer, Jesus will give them Heaven no matter how they behave?
Then there are the people who believe that it really won't matter. A loving God will not choose to send anyone to Hell so no worries everybody is good to go no matter how they behave.
The truth is that as Catholics we know that how we behave is indicative of our relationship with God. If we continue in sin we are turning from God and as He gave us free will He calls to us to stay but will indeed allow us to leave. So, is the truth that if we are not good Jesus will not come?
Jesus will come. We shall neither hurry Him nor dissuade Him. When it is His time, He will come. Some of us will die before that happens. Jesus will come to us at that point. Whether we have been good or bad, Jesus will come. He will come to judge the living and the dead. For the living, Jesus coming will be the Beatific Vision wherein we look into pure love as we look into the face of Christ. For the dead, Jesus will look at them in judgement and there will be no welcome as He identifies those who have chosen not to know Him.
Advent has come again with its message for each of us to prepare the way of the Lord. Now, we are in the season of Christmas. Jesus has come into the world. He has offered us life. How shall we choose this year? In the year of our Lord, 2007, let us choose Jesus every day. Let us be the channels of His love and His peace unto the world. Let us be good because Jesus Christ is coming! May He find each of us walking in the fellowship of the Holy Spirit.
Merry Christmas and a most Blessed New Year!
This Penguin Parable is copyright 2007 by Marti Wilson and was originally posted on Catholic Pillar and Foundation. Reposted with permission.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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mrsbmoo
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Posted: Tue Jan 2nd, 2007 01:58 pm |
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I tried Googling those terms but only came up with the terms in relation to "non human primates" or elementary school children. While in mental level a newly 2 year old is very likely closer to a primate than a grade school child, I was still a bit uncomfortable with the idea of treating her like an animal. I admit the idea struck me negatively at first anyway because it brought up images of me being held hostage to the amount of candy I could bribe her with to be quiet. I associate positive reenforcement with out of control kids, and parents held hostage by the behavior of their kids. In spite of this I decided it wouldn't hurt to read what the theory was.
This fourth daughter has been somewhat of a parenting about face for me. In my previous marriage and with my 3 older girls, we used liberal physical punishment and much loud verbal shaming to produce kids who were obedient and passive. This was partly the result of their Dad's abusive personality and partly the pressure I felt to have "good" kids. Well, 10 years later I have an oldest child who suffers terribly from poor self esteem and is medicated for depression. My next child ended up with early onset bi-polar disease which has a genetic component but is triggered by stress. My 3rd child is pretty normal but her Dad left when she was only 2 so that limited the effect. All 3 have odd obsessive fears and lack confidence in their lovableness and abilities.
This time around I decided to try to parent with firm persistance instead of anger. I am using more of a "naughty bench"/ interruption technique which seems to be working but much slower. I am not saying spanking/paddling is evil, just that the way my ex and I used it, got a result I didn't want. (His take is that there is nothing wrong with the kids that needs medication, they just need to be punished until they conform to being normal) My youngest is also less verbal than her sisters were at the same age so I am often unclear whether she truly understand what I expect of her in church. Because of both her natural personality and my not having repressed her reactions, when corrected(or even frustrated by her own inability to accomplish her desires) she will throw her head back, throw herself down and scream. She does this regardless of where she is or the resulting fall. On the positive side she is friendly, curious, persevering, agile and mechanically inclined. She suffers from no lack of self confidence or obsessive fears, which is what I want.
So if you have a method which neither requires spanking her into submission or bribing her with candy constantly, I am willing to listen!
____________________
Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 10 months and 17
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BodRod
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Posted: Tue Jan 2nd, 2007 02:28 pm |
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"bribing "
We don't use the "b" word in psychology. We use "behavior modification" or "behavior shaping". They all mean the same but the phrases look better than the "b" word in a report.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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beachmoss
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Posted: Tue Jan 2nd, 2007 07:19 pm |
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| I have discovered a technique that usually works. I let the best behaved, up to that point, put the envelope in the basket. If they can be well-behaved throughout the entire mass they can go up to Jesus' statue after mass, or they can help me light a votive. And oftentimes I let the best of the three pick where we eat lunch after mass.
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