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JillD
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| Location: | Visalia, California USA |
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Fri Oct 13th, 2006 01:08 am |
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| I've been to 3 different parishes over the course of a few years and have noticed that at all 3 very few members of the congregations were holding their hymnals or singing. I asked my friend about this and she said she actually had a book called "Why Catholics Can't Sing"! I'm borrowing it. But she also said that it's sort of a cultural thing; that until fairly recently no one sang during Mass. Any long-time Catholics out there who can answer this question?? I'm just curious. For my part? I plan to sing!
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Oct 13th, 2006 01:15 am |
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JillD wrote: I've been to 3 different parishes over the course of a few years and have noticed that at all 3 very few members of the congregations were holding their hymnals or singing. I asked my friend about this and she said she actually had a book called "Why Catholics Can't Sing"! I'm borrowing it. But she also said that it's sort of a cultural thing; that until fairly recently no one sang during Mass. Any long-time Catholics out there who can answer this question?? I'm just curious. For my part? I plan to sing!
At my church we have a tendency to shake the rafters. When I play the organ from the choir loft, I can hear them singing below me even though I can't see them. Of course, some songs they sing better than others. (Visiting priests often are stunned by the congregational singing, and frequently comment on it.) By the way, this is not really uncommon in my diocese, but then again, never tell a Cajun he can't sing!
When I was choir director, I had a philosophy: "God gave you your voice. If you have a good one, you should use it in praise. If you have a bad one, God deserves to hear it loud!" (Actually stolen from a Protestant pastor quoted in Reader's Digest a few decades ago, but I usually let others think I made it up.)
Prior to Vatican II, most of the music was in Latin and sung by a choir at high masses, and there was no music at low masses, but that was more than 40 years ago and they should have learned the words by now! I think it depends more than anything else on the priority the pastor puts on singing.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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BettyBoopToo
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| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
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| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Oct 15th, 2006 11:21 pm |
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JillD wrote: I've been to 3 different parishes over the course of a few years and have noticed that at all 3 very few members of the congregations were holding their hymnals or singing. I asked my friend about this and she said she actually had a book called "Why Catholics Can't Sing"! I'm borrowing it. But she also said that it's sort of a cultural thing; that until fairly recently no one sang during Mass. Any long-time Catholics out there who can answer this question?? I'm just curious. For my part? I plan to sing!
Hi again Jill
I know what you mean about some catholic's not singing. Alot of protestant churches are really into their music ministry, several of my family members attend these certain churches just because of the music. I personally do not like to sing, yes, you guessed it. I'm not a good singer at all. I sing purely out of obediance to Father.
When we were in RCIA father taught us that it did not matter if we were good at singing or not. Mass is not a spectators event, He is not there to entertain any of us, using the hymnal and singing is part of our participation.
I do notice many who do not sing though, I usually credit it to the fact they were not one of Fathers students
There is a certain lady that sings so beautiful. I am occaisonaly blessed to have her & her family sit behind me as a matter of fact she sat behind me last night. I was thinking just this morning of sending her a Thank You Card in appriciation of her beautiful voice and how much I enjoyed it when she sits behind me.
Singing hyms is like praying twice! St. Augustin
Betty
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Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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mrsbmoo
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Virginia USA |
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| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | former Methodist. RCA, Presbyterian, Holiness, Wesleyan... Catholic as of June ... |
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Posted: Mon Oct 16th, 2006 12:20 am |
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| When I was taking my first tour of a Catholic church, the lady mentioned how glad she was that Catholics now sing. Our priest has a beautiful voice and we sing many of the same hymns that I sang as a Presbyrterian. We sang Joyful joyful we adore thee, this morning. Yes, some of the older folks don't sing but overall as a parish we sing often and vigorously. I actually found I was singing more in the Catholic church since in the evangelical church we sat like an audience instead of singing as a congregation. Which leads me to draw the conclusion that this varies from parish to parish.
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Becky
Wife of Michael(called Moo) and stay at home mom to 5 daughters between 10 months and 17
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JillD
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Mon Oct 16th, 2006 12:29 am |
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| I think if actual hymns were sung, like the one you mentioned, Becky, more people would sing. I do notice that the liturgical songs are sung, but not the songs that come out of the songbook, missal (I still don't have the Catholic lingo down!). But they're very hard to sing, jerky melodies that stop and start, and uninspiring lyrics, too. Last edited on Mon Oct 16th, 2006 12:31 am by JillD
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"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Mon Oct 16th, 2006 01:30 am |
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Your observation is correct, Jill. Anyone does better with a singable hymn. The older people know and love the old melodies, and if you give them a chance, they will join in. I know; I’m one of those older people.
Unfortunately, the few occasions we get to sing the old hymns (usually when the musicians don’t show up), they change the words on me and I can’t follow that, either.
David
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Darlene
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Posted: Mon Oct 30th, 2006 09:10 pm |
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Hello Everyone,
Yesterday we sang "Come, Thou Almighty King" and "All Hail the Power of Jesus' Name" and I noticed that many of the parishners didn't know these old hymns. But then again, many of those that attend my church are new Believers and were not raised in the Christian faith or just never cared to learn them.
I love the old hymns and sing them robustly!
Love in Christ,
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Br_Carlo
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| Location: | Tyler, Texas USA |
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Posted: Mon Oct 30th, 2006 09:43 pm |
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| God's peace. This is the one--and only one--thing I miss about my former Anglo-catholic parish: the incredible music! We regularly sang hymns that dated from the fourth century. The hymns we sing at my church, the cathedral of my diocese, are the same modern hymns--over and over and over--and they're insipid compared to the old greats. Sigh. Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
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Ruthie
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Posted: Wed Nov 29th, 2006 02:57 pm |
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Just to weigh in, I love to sing. I love the old hymns. I too have noticed the reticence of Catholics to sing. It just seems to fit in with arriving late and leaving early, which I also have a hard time with.
In the parish I have visited the last 7 months (I'm away from home) the priest is a wonderful musician and encourages music and singing. Still, a lot of people don't sing - maybe they are old school from the time when there was no singing. Also, the minute the priest, altar servers, etc. have processed out of the church, everyone packs up and leaves even if the singing isn't over. I'm afraid I stand there and sing until the music stops, and I'm often one of the very few still there. What's with that? This would have been seen as terribly discourteous in the Episcopal chuches I've attended. They certainly don't do that at Mass on EWTN.
I'm not too fond of the modern music either. I love the organ and the old hymns. Though there are just a few from the 70s that are lovely. I wish there was more Gregorian chant which is hauntingly beautiful. One Catholic Church I went to had a rock band which I just can't accept at all. To me it takes away from devotion and worship instead of contributing to it. There was no crucifix either, just an empty cross. But at least they keep open a small chapel where one can go in and pray before the tabernacle. So I go there for private prayer in the chapel only.
I'm also put off by the modern architechture of so many Catholic churches, but that's another story. I so miss the beautiful old churches of Lima, Peru where I grew up - like old European churches. Too bad I wasn't Cathoic then.
Ruthie
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Truly I tell you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will never enter it. (NRSV, Luke 18:17)
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JillD
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Posted: Wed Nov 29th, 2006 06:51 pm |
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| Is there anyone who loves the "new hymns"? They are insipid, like thin soup. Why do churches keep using them?
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Nov 29th, 2006 07:24 pm |
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JillD wrote: Is there anyone who loves the "new hymns"? They are insipid, like thin soup. Why do churches keep using them?
I love many of the "new hymns." Abba, Father, Hail Mary: Gentle Woman, Be Not Afraid, and many of the newer hymns are absolutely beautiful. Of course, there is a lot of junk out there. But just because it's old doesn't make it good.
I could happily live the rest of my life without ever again hearing "Now Thank We All Our God". One of the problems with songs originally written in another language is that the grammatical construct is usually horrible to fit in with the meter of the song. "Now thank we all our God / with heart and hands and voices. / Who won'drous things has done / in whom this world rejoices. / Who from our mothers arms / has blessed us on our way / with countless gifts of love / and still is ours today." Gimme a break! And you have to be a soprano (or a member of a male choir of castrati) to reach the low notes!
Pope Benedict is working on a document that will encourage the use of traditional Catholic hymns, including Gregorian chant and the Latin language such as Dona Nobis Pacem and Panis Angelicus. A lot of the old stuff is really good, but a lot of the new stuff is, too.
Of course, if you're talking about the "generic Christian" music that you hear on Christian radio stations, that's a different matter. Most of them are not very good musically and questionable theologically. One in particular, Breathe, is a pet peeve of mine. It includes the line "This is my daily bread, your holy Word, spoken to me." This is a direct contradiction of Catholic theology and denies the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist. It should be banned from every Catholic church in the world. And this music is teaching our kids theology!
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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stephanpetersgirl
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Posted: Wed Nov 29th, 2006 07:35 pm |
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Talking about singing . . . One of the songs we sang at mass when my son became a Catachumen was "A Mighty Fortress in Our God" by Martin Luther. Is that ironic or what?
Laurie
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JillD
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Posted: Wed Nov 29th, 2006 07:56 pm |
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That hymn of Luther's is probably my very favorite. I love what it says and I also have fond memories of sitting in front of abortion mills with a big group of Christians, blocking the doors, and singing that hymn a capella. I don't think there's anything doctrinally wrong with it, is there??
On many of the songs I find in the missalette, they're just hard to sing. Not that the notes are too high or too low, but the meter is uneven, and the melodies are unfamiliar, so it's hard to follow along.
AND a lot of the lyrics say next to nothing....
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
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stephanpetersgirl
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Posted: Wed Nov 29th, 2006 08:06 pm |
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JillD wrote: That hymn of Luther's is probably my very favorite. I love what it says and I also have fond memories of sitting in front of abortion mills with a big group of Christians, blocking the doors, and singing that hymn a capella. I don't think there's anything doctrinally wrong with it, is there??
I don't think there is anything wrong with it I just thought it was funny because it was a Protestant hymn 
Anyway, the kids and I loved singing it - it made us feel welcome.
Laurie
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BodRod
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Posted: Wed Nov 29th, 2006 11:51 pm |
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| We sing in my church. However, those sitting near me may be more inclined to say that instead of singing, I am making a "joyful noise unto the Lord".
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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Darlene
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Posted: Thu Nov 30th, 2006 12:05 pm |
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JillD wrote: That hymn of Luther's is probably my very favorite. I love what it says and I also have fond memories of sitting in front of abortion mills with a big group of Christians, blocking the doors, and singing that hymn a capella. I don't think there's anything doctrinally wrong with it, is there??
On many of the songs I find in the missalette, they're just hard to sing. Not that the notes are too high or too low, but the meter is uneven, and the melodies are unfamiliar, so it's hard to follow along.
AND a lot of the lyrics say next to nothing....
Hi Jill,
Not long ago, we sang "A Mighty Fortress" at church. I am in the choir so I think it is incumbant upon me to know as many of the hymns we sing as possible. Anyhow, I learned that hymn way back when I was in that group The Church of Bible Understanding. We had a "training center" in NYC, and we would evangelize every evening at Washington Square Park. "A Mighty Fortress" and "Onward Christain Soldiers" were almost like our theme songs. We would sing them as a group, while walking through the neighborhoods to the park.
A Mighty Fortress is our God a bulwark never failing
Our helper He amidst the flood of mortal ills prevailing
For still our ancient foe doth seek to work us woe
His craft and power are great and armed with cruel hate
On earth is not his equal
I especially like the last lines of the last verse
Let goods and kindred go this mortal life also
The body they may kill God's truth abideth still
His kingdom is forever!
Not bad for a rebellious protester, eh?
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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JillD
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Posted: Thu Nov 30th, 2006 12:43 pm |
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What's weird is that when we joined the Lutheran church and began to sing that hymn, the lyrics were different! And I didn't like them nearly as much. And it was sung just a little bit differently. It goes like this:
A mighty fortress is our God, a trusty shield and weapon
He helps us free from every need, That hath us now o'ertaken
The old evil foe, now means deadly woe
Deep guile and great might are his dread arms in fight
on earth is not his equal
The last part of the last stanza goes like this:
And take they our life, goods, fame, child, and wife,
Let these all be gone, They yet have nothing won;
The Kingdom ours remaineth.
It's an awesome song to sing. Oh, I am going to miss this so much in the Catholic Church!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Part of the leeks of Egypt, I guess....
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
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Truthseeker
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Posted: Thu Nov 30th, 2006 07:08 pm |
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I think another reason Catholics don't sing much is because they know they can be heard. At the non-denom church I used to attend, we had a smallish room, a "band" on stage with their elecrtric guitars and drums and amps, two huge screens with all the words (of mostly easy songs that were easy to learn), and you had to sing loud to even hear yourself, which we did and which I loved!
At my Catholic parish, we have about ten people in the corner, one organ in the back, one gentle guitar, some little tooty sounding thiings (sometimes) and a huge sanctuary (is that where the pews are), with people spread out all over the place, singing songs, of which some are brand new. And when you sing, everyone can hear you. It's frightening, really. Sometimes, we have one cantor and one guitar.
Personally, I sing - and I sing loud. I always feel like I sound horrible, but I can't imagine not giving God His glory in the voice He made for me and LOVES TO HEAR! A few weeks ago, someone even told me I had a nice singing voice. Maybe, God makes me sound better when I sing for Him.
I love it when I hear someone else's voice distinctly.
Love.
Laura
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Jan 20th, 2007 07:45 pm |
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I promised this a long time ago so I wanted to keep my word.
A couple of years ago, the National Association of Pastoral Musicians conducted an online poll in which 3000 people voted for their favorite hymn. Each person was allowed to vote for only one song, and over 670 songs drew votes.
The top 10 songs mentioned were
- On Eagles' Wings
- Here I Am, Lord
- Be Not Afraid
- You Are Mine
- How Great Thou Art
- Holy God, We Praise thy Name
- Amazing Grace
- All Are Welcome
- Prayer of St. Francis
- Ave Maria
Songs written after Vatican II took the top four positions, six of the top nine, and 12 of the top 25. The fourth ranked song, "You Are Mine" received 138 votes, 81% more than the fifth ranked song, "How Great Thou Art", which got 76. The top choice, "On Eagles' Wings", got 242 votes, or 8% of the total votes cast.
Other songs mentioned in the article were We Are Called in 11th place; I Am The Bread Of Life at 13th; The Summons at 14th; Panis Angelicus at 15th; Pescador de Hombre at 17th; Shepherd Me O God at 19th; One Bread, One Body at 22nd; Hosea and Pange Lingua tied for 24th.
A British Catholic newspaper conducted a similar survey with similar results. "Here I Am, Lord" finished first. For the NAPM survey, votes were solicited through articles in Catholic newspapers.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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JillD
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Posted: Sat Jan 20th, 2007 07:58 pm |
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I first heard "Here I Am, Lord" when I was but a fairly new Christian as we sat blockading abortion clinic doors. It will always, always make me remember those days.
I haven't even heard of many of those hymns, by the way... I think there are only three that I can say would definitely be quite familiar to me.
I have heard what I felt was a valid criticism, though, of "Here I Am, Lord." The critic took exception to the hymn being sung from the first person, as though the singer were God: "I the Lord of wind and sea..." After thinking about that, I felt myself in agreement.
My main complaint with the new hymns is their simplicity. They don't say very much, at least not with the depth that the old hymns did. But even worse than the new hymns are the praise choruses, a handful of words sung over and over and over.... My mind needs more to chew on as I sing, especially if the hymn is sung often. The first 25 times I sang "Lord, You're beautiful; Your face is all I seek; and when Your eyes are on this child, Your grace abounds to me" it was pretty emotional for me. But after awhile, the emotion was worn thin and the words didn't hold enough meaning to sustain the song. A really good hymn is definitely one that has stood or will stand the test of time - a long, long time.
I miss those hymns....
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! You know me right well; my frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret, intricately wrought in the depths of the earth." Psalm 139
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Darlene
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Posted: Sat Jan 20th, 2007 08:31 pm |
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| Of those 10 hymns, I only know How Great Thou Art and Amazing Grace. I am familiar with Ave Maria but do not know the words.
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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mg57
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Posted: Thu Jan 25th, 2007 10:53 pm |
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Jill -
Perhaps one reason more of the older hymns were not voted for is because much of the laity under 45 hasn't heard them often enough to be familiar with them.
At the same time, I'm not saying that I've not been inspired and edified by the praise music I've heard while chaperoning at Steubenville East Youth Conferences.
Ignatius Press publishes a great hymnal which inludes representative hymns from across the centuries. If one is musically inclined, it's a nice thing to have in one's library.
God bless.
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cbowden
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Posted: Tue Jan 30th, 2007 11:11 am |
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Dear Friends and Readers:
I've been asking myself the same question recently and have been absolutely flabbergasted that people don't sing, or if do they its kind of a weak, (I don't want to be too loud) kind of singing. Kind of like how people often say the Nicene Creed.
I came into the Church this past year after spending the first 45 years of my life in various protestant backgrounds, including charismatic, non-denominational and pentecostal type churches. I'm used to a much more generous and free-flowing approach to music, worship, worshipful expression, types of instruments, and use of more contemporary styles.
We are exhorted time and time again throughout the Old Testament and in the Psalms to sing, to shout (Ps 66), to extol, to praise (Ps 65, 71:22-24), to lift our hands, to exalt, to clap (Ps 47), Psalm 81, and many others. In the New Testament we are encouraged in Colossians 3:16-17, Hebrews 2:12 and other places to "sing" different types of songs. While the content and words of our worship songs and hymns are very important we should not limit ourselves to expressions of worship and praise to simply traditional expressions. I realize that especially older folks may not like certain styles or instruments and can appreciate that. I also realize that Catholics tend to have a much more quiet, reserved, and reverential approach to God (which is valuable and good). I realize that there may be cultural or institutional reasons why people may not sing, or might not have in the past, and that this may be something that people have to adjust to, since thats all that they've been used to all their lives. Conversely, in some protestant or pentecostal type churches- singing, worship and praise can take on a life of their own, become "showy" like a performance, and there may be an emphasis (which while the motives are mostly good) that can be distracting or ultimately not be focused on Christ or God. It is a balancing act. Are we "jamming out" or are we worshipping the Lord? I think its possible to do both, but it is encumbent on the worship leaders or directors, and pastors to keep people and the music focused on Christ.
To me, from my background, how we sing and worship is really a personal expression of the faith that one has. In our Catholic parish I keep asking myself- "...Do all these people really have a faith in Christ? Are they grateful, and thankful for his love and mercy? Do they celebrate his forgiveness and his presence here in this place? Have they personally received His love and mercy?" Or are people just showing up, going thru the motions, and have a shallow or no faith at all?? I know its not for me to judge, and I know there are significant cultural differences between the background I've come from, and the Catholic Church. I also realize that there are some much deeper issues at work here, related to making a personal commitment and response to God, and our faith in Christ is in particular. Its also a matter of knowing what the Word of God in the Bible has to say- which is really a major crux related to all the above.
Catholics need to know that they CAN and are allowed to worship, sing, praise, give glory to God and to honor Him in a variety of ways. I try to do so weekly at Mass, even though my wife and I may sound louder and more noticable than some of the folks around us. Its like God has put us there to be an example, and maybe a light.
CATHOLICS- YOU HAVE PERMISSION!!! SING to GOD and give Him praise for His mercy, grace and love to YOU!
If you haven't personally experienced his grace and love in Christ, if you haven't asked Him to be LORD of your life, (be #1 in everything)- then now's the time to seek Him and ask Him; and experience the transforming freedom and mercy that comes from knowing Christ Jesus and his forgiveness.
Craig
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