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brian
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Posted: Tue Feb 27th, 2007 01:25 am |
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I went to my first Catholic funeral. A few questions. All the statues and crosses in the church were covered with a purple garment? Was this because of lent, or the funeral or something else? and does anyone know why?
Also, I know the hell subject was difficult, but I wanted to ask, that if it is wrong to assume any soul is in hell, is it also wrong to automatically assmue souls are in heaven? Now I think it is good to trust in God's mercy and I have no reason to doubt that the person who the funeral was for is not in heaven, and I think it is always good to pray for the dead, but I wonder, if Catholics maybe go too far assuming people are in heaven who die, and just say things like that to comfort the loved ones, that we know they are in a better place and whatnot, even if the person in question may not have believed in his or her faith. I am not basing thison a lot of evidence, but in my mind for some reason I feel like people pretty much always assume everybody is in heaven, and I wonder if maybe we should be more cautious about that, so thast people do not get the impression they will pretty much automatically go to heaven no matter how they live.
Secondly, if the mass is a few days after one dies, whet if they were particularly devout or holy or purgatory in an eternal time goes by quickly, and the deceased is already in heaven? And does one need ones real body to have a ressurecton body? I know the spiritual body topic was alsao difficult, but I am curious if our spiritual resurrection body needs our physical body, or if we get that later on the last day? I mean, we cleasrly know the physical body is buried and decomposing, so wouldn't that mean they must be in heaven or purgatory or somewhere without theie body?
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Feb 27th, 2007 02:16 am |
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brian wrote: I went to my first Catholic funeral. A few questions. All the statues and crosses in the church were covered with a purple garment? Was this because of lent, or the funeral or something else? and does anyone know why?
It used to be required to cover all statues during Lent. It is no longer required, but some churches still do it. The purpose was to convey the penitential nature of the season and to encourage us to focus inward in a spirit of penance and conversion.
Also, I know the hell subject was difficult, but I wanted to ask, that if it is wrong to assume any soul is in hell, is it also wrong to automatically assmue souls are in heaven?
No. We are free to assume that those we love, who we know did not knowingly reject God's love, are in heaven. We may also pray to those we love, and ask them to pray for us. My parents in heaven are "friends in high places." Even if their current state of existence is Purgatory, they can still pray for me, and I can pray for them.
Now I think it is good to trust in God's mercy and I have no reason to doubt that the person who the funeral was for is not in heaven,
The criteria for eternal life in heaven is specified in Matthew 25:31-46. How many times have you heard at a funeral that someone would have given you the shirt off his back? If someone truly thought of and cared for others, to the best of his abillity, then it is highly unlikely he will not ultimately share God's eternal life in heaven. St. Catherine of Genoa described Purgatory as a place of unimaginable joy, since the souls there are assured of salvation. David and others have referred to Purgatory as the entrance way to Heaven, sort of like the lobby or the foyer.
I do believe there are people who have been and will be condemned to hell, but I believe they are mostly the people who have spent their lives taking advantage of others. I think those of us who make an effort to be aware of those less fortunate and help them as best we can will have the opportunity to make amends for any wrongs we may have done, and ultimately will share eternal joy in heaven. (This is my PERSONAL OPINION, not Church teaching. Even though I am a moderator, I am still entitled to a PERSONAL OPINION on matters not defined by the Church (Sorry, Brian, that wasn't directed at you.)
for some reason I feel like people pretty much always assume everybody is in heaven, and I wonder if maybe we should be more cautious about that, so thast people do not get the impression they will pretty much automatically go to heaven no matter how they live.
When talking to a widow, we certainly can't say, "Sorry, ma'am, your husband's in hell." We trust the dead to God's mercy and assume they are in heaven because it gives us hope. There is simply no advantage in assuming that someone has been damned to hell, and it is not our place to make that judgement anyway.
Secondly, if the mass is a few days after one dies, whet if they were particularly devout or holy or purgatory in an eternal time goes by quickly, and the deceased is already in heaven?
I'm not sure what you're asking. The soul may very well be in heaven. We don't know. I truly believe Pope John Paul II was in heaven before the light was turned out in his room. Prayers are never wasted; if the person we pray for doesn't need them (for one reason or another), God will apply our prayers where they are needed. That's why when we pray the Fatima Prayer in the Rosary, we pray "Lead all souls to heaven, especially those in most need of Thy mercy." We are praying for the forgotten, the least of God's people.
And does one need ones real body to have a ressurecton body?
No. With God all things are possible. God will provide us with a glorified body when the time arrives. For a long time the Church prohibited cremation because many people burned bodies specifically to prevent God from reuniting body and soul, but that was a pretty stupid belief because God can do anything. (The Church never believed that or taught that; it forbade cremation because it's intention was anti-Christian). Today cremation is allowed as long as it is not for an anti-Christian purpose.
I know the spiritual body topic was alsao difficult, but I am curious if our spiritual resurrection body needs our physical body, or if we get that later on the last day?
We will be reunited with our physical bodies on the last day, but it will not be the same body we had when we died. If I die at 103 laying in a hospital bed wearing a diaper and not knowing what's going on around me, I certainly don't want to spend eternity in that body. Some theologians have speculated that the bodies we will inhabit will be 33 years old, Jesus' age at the time of his crucifixion, and the time when we are at the peak of our physical health. At any rate, our glorified bodies will be far superior to any body we ever inhabited on earth.
I mean, we cleasrly know the physical body is buried and decomposing, so wouldn't that mean they must be in heaven or purgatory or somewhere without theie body?
The reunion of body and soul will not take place until the end of time. Jesus, Mary, and a few people in the Old Testament were taken bodily into heaven; the rest of us will have to wait until the last day.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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brian
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Posted: Tue Feb 27th, 2007 02:37 am |
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You mentioned Matthew 25 as being a crucial passage about our judgment. I agree with this. But we said many places on this forum that protestants are the ones who pick and choose favorites and tend not to use al of scripture together. Therefore, I would think that in order for us to have the strongest hope that a person is saved would also mean that they believe in Jesus as being the son of God.
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g]
I could not absolutely assure anyone that their loved one is in heaven if all I knew from my experience with them was that they did not believe in Jesus. I believe as you do that it is possilbe that they may have received a dying grace or ability to repent in dying, but I can not assume it definitely happened. I could only tell the family that we trust in God's mery and pray for the person and not judge them, but leave that judgment to God.
But to me Matthew 25 John 3 and all the passages speaking on judgment must be held together along with realizing that we do not understand the mystery of judgment but trust in a merciful God.
I would never say to the widow that her husband is in hell. I just think if I were a priest and I knew the person who died never attended mass or went to confession for years and years, and personally told me they did not believe in Jesus, then I would not be able to just go around telling the family I was sure he was in a better place. I would trust in God's mercy and say that I am praying for Him and I have hope God will receive His soul into heaven. But I could not imagine saying, well I am sure He is in heaven at the mass homile. I would just say that we have hope in a merciful God and leave it at that. I would think that other than those canonized we can not assume anybody is in heaven or hell (though we think there will be) because not knowing there heart for all we know, they were insincere, none of us truly knows the depths of another mans heart. We know what we see, and what we see definitely can be an encouragement, and maybe we can be 99 percent sure our loved ones are in heaven, but I do not know if we could be 100% sure. I am speaking very technically though, and think that 99.% is still good enough to be very encouraged.
I do not mean to be difficult or quarrelsome, I just think if we can not say anyone is in hell for sure, we probably can not say for 100% sure they are in heaven either.
I am glad to know that we can pray to our loved ones who were not officially saints or definitely out of purgatory. What happens though if we ask someones prayers who is in hell (if someone is there, which I think there is but we do not have to open that discussion again)? Does God simply not allow the person to be aware of this? Would it be a bad thing?
Last edited on Tue Feb 27th, 2007 08:13 am by brian
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Feb 27th, 2007 08:54 am |
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brian wrote: You mentioned Matthew 25 as being a crucial passage about our judgment. I agree with this. But we said many places on this forum that protestants are the ones who pick and choose favorites and tend not to use al of scripture together. Therefore, I would think that in order for us to have the strongest hope that a person is saved would also mean that they believe in Jesus as being the son of God.
I absolutely agree. Anyone who has knowledge of the Son of God and rejects him is doomed. But as our Savior reminded us, it is not for us to judge. If we are going to make an assumption about the eternal fate of someone, I believe it is best that we err on the side of compassion for the survivors, and that's what our Church does in the funeral liturgy. If the person is in Purgatory, our funeral liturgy commends him to God's mercy. If in Heaven, our liturgy promises that we will meet them again face to face. If they have been condemned to hell, our liturgy offers comfort and encouragement to the bereaved, because there is nothing left to offer to the deceased. But in dealing with the survivors, there is no reason to assume the worst when we can encourage them to hope for the best.
With the approximately 400 deaths I handled working as a hospice chaplain, I always offered consolation and encouragement. If they would remind me that their loved one was one who always cared for his fellow humans, I would give them Matthew 25:31-46. If they spoke of hatred or selfishness, I would remind them of God's merciful love, and that we have no idea of the thoughts of repentance that could go through a person's mind during their last moments. Only if I knew that person was faith-filled and compassionate would I encourage them to believe their loved one was destined for Heaven. And I believe that is how we should act in the presence of survivors. We have to offer realistic hope, to encourage them to continue their lives and not sink into depression. Blessed are they who mourn, for they will be comforted. It is up to us to be Jesus to them and offer that comfort.
I could not absolutely assure anyone that their loved one is in heaven if all I knew from my experience with them was that they did not believe in Jesus. I believe as you do that it is possilbe that they may have received a dying grace or ability to repent in dying, but I can not assume it definitely happened. I could only tell the family that we trust in God's mery and pray for the person and not judge them, but leave that judgment to God.
I agree. And in the one case I had where the person professed to be an athiest, I reminded the family that God is merciful, and will not hold a person responsible for ignorance. I did not say I believed he was judged worthy of heaven, based on the information they gave me. I did not have the opportunity to talk to the gentleman myself, because he was in a coma by the time he came into our care. Nor did I pray with him or for him in his presence, because his family indicated to me he would not have wanted it. So I offered comfort in the bes way I knew how, by reminding them of God's loving mercy. The deaths I witnessed were joyful and peaceful, and the dying often expressed visions of beauty and the sight of loved ones during their final moments. That is an indication to me that their judgement was likely to be favorable. In almost all cases, even the tormented came to peace with themselves and with God before they took their last earthly breath. Then again, that's what I was there to help them do.
But to me Matthew 25 John 3 and all the passages speaking on judgment must be held together along with realizing that we do not understand the mystery of judgment but trust in a merciful God.
Amen! But to the best of my knowledge, Matthew 25:31-46 is the only passage in which Jesus actually describes how the final judgment will take place. Like you, I believe that a belief in Jesus is necessary for those who know him to be saved, but even those who cry, "Lord, Lord" will be condemned if they have not taken care of the least of God's people.
I would never say to the widow that her husband is in hell. I just think if I were a priest and I knew the person who died never attended mass or went to confession for years and years, and personally told me they did not believe in Jesus, then I would not be able to just go around telling the family I was sure he was in a better place.
Neither would I.
I would trust in God's mercy and say that I am praying for Him and I have hope God will receive His soul into heaven. But I could not imagine saying, well I am sure He is in heaven at the mass homile.
I don't know a priest who would say someone was in God's presence if they didn't truly believe it. Actually, I don't know a priest who would say someone is in God's presence period. They might say, "We believe he is with God," but no one can state with certainty except the universal Church through the canonization process. No priest can canonize anyone from the pulpit, and he would be a fool to try.
I do not mean to be difficult or quarrelsome, I just think if we can not say anyone is in hell for sure, we probably can not say for 100% sure they are in heaven either.
That is correct, and we should only state what we know. We cannot say a person is in heaven, although we can state that we believe that person is walking with God.
I am glad to know that we can pray to our loved ones who were not officially saints or definitely out of purgatory. What happens though if we ask someones prayers who is in hell (if someone is there, which I think there is but we do not have to open that discussion again)? Does God simply not allow the person to be aware of this? Would it be a bad thing?
We don't know what a person is aware of after death; we know all heavenly knowledge flows through God, who places the benefit of prayer where it is most needed. Our prayers are never bad and never wasted. Even if nothing else, they help to rid our hearts of selfishness. So yes, we pray for and to our deceased loved ones, and trust God to take care of the rest.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Feb 27th, 2007 10:51 pm |
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Brian, I just want to clear up a few small matters of language and concept. I don’t think you are making any major mistakes, and Rick’s agreement shows we do understand what you are saying. But for the benefit of others, I think it would be beneficial to lay down some individual points.
I wanted to ask, that if it is wrong to assume any soul is in hell, is it also wrong to automatically assume souls are in heaven?
I don’t think the word “wrong” is a good one to use here. My original comment, when we were discussing this earlier, was that it is “uncharitable.” I understand that there are ways this can translate to “wrong,” but “wrong” does not necessarily convey the idea of uncharitableness. On the idea of uncharitableness in this usage, I think you and Rick have come to an understanding. My concern, then, is for those who would say that, on the basis of your wording, it is therefore sinful to believe that hell is actually populated, and this is not the idea at all. We must distinguish between specific individuals and people in general. To “automatically assume” (or even merely to state) that a given individual is in hell is a rash judgment, and thus violates charity. To believe that because hell actually exists (a tenet of our faith), it must also be populated (a logical consequent, according to some lines of theological thought), is just and does not violate charity.
But is it any better to assume that a given soul is in heaven? I believe that we may hope that it is so, and even that we may act on that hope (for instance, as Rick mentioned, praying to a loved one who has passed on). But to take it as a fact requires both hard evidence and the Church’s pronouncement on that evidence; this is what the process of canonization is all about. When we politely mention a deceased person as being “in a better place” (or similar words implying that he is in heaven), I do not see this as being more than good wishes for both the deceased and the bereaved. Otherwise we would all be guilty of going beyond the facts. Considering that there are many ways to skirt the issue, I see no reason to speak in this manner.
Does one need one’s real body to have a ressurection body? I know the spiritual body topic was also difficult, but I am curious if our spiritual resurrection body needs our physical body, or if we get that later on the last day?
Rick gave you the textbook answer. What he did not address was the fact that one’s “spiritual body” is in fact the “physical body” transformed in the process of resurrection. In other words, we should not speak of them as separate and distinct entities. St. Paul’s words are that the body is “changed,” not replaced.
This is why just saying that it is Christ’s same physical body in the Eucharist is not sufficient. One would be correct insofar as it is the same body, but incorrect because, through the resurrection, it is changed and is no longer merely a “physical body.” I prefer to emphasize the Church’s statement that it is Christ’s “risen and glorified” body, while at the same time recognizing that it was indeed Christ’s body and none other. The reason for this is that people have a natural tendency to assume that a body is always material and physical, even if it is glorified, and even though this is not what St. Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 concerning the resurrection of the body. Nor is it what Jesus himself says to the Saducees when he characterizes resurrected human beings as being “like angels” (Matthew 22:30; Mark 12:25).
You see, then, how our human language can trip us up by limiting divine things to the categories of creation as we know it. We do not know what a “spiritual body” might be; all we know is that the Holy Spirit contrasts it with “physical body,” and that it is a person’s same body, but somehow changed into a “spiritual” entity. So even on a “material” level, we cannot explain adequately the mystery of the Eucharist.
If the mass is a few days after one dies, what if they were particularly devout or holy or purgatory in an eternal time goes by quickly, and the deceased is already in heaven?
I think what you are getting at here is the question of “before” and “after” in eternity. The plain fact is that these words have no meaning in eternity, because all is simply “now.” So your question really has no point of reference except in time. Your concern is whether, if a person is already in heaven, our prayers and Masses on his behalf will have any effect. Indeed they do, because God has so ordained.
Since God sees things from the standpoint of eternity, it makes no difference if one prays about a future event, an ongoing event or a past event, because everything is present together in his “now.” Intentions are intentions; it matters not when they be formed or enunciated because in eternity there is no “when.”
David
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