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purplebear
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Posted: Thu May 17th, 2007 05:01 pm |
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Thank you all for your kind words of encouragement and prayer.
I've heard back from the minister with the website. My last e-mail questioned his authority to translate the bible. He vaguely attacked my question, but never really answered it. I realized that this is the second round of e-mails that I called him on hard stuff and he didn't really answer my questions. This time he directed me to CCC 2027 which is an "In Brief" to 2010. I've already explained this to my dear friend, so that is easially covered. In a previous e-mail I pointed out that salvation could be lost which is why once saved always saved doesn't fly. This time he gave me a laundry list of verses that show we can't lose salvation. I'm trying to be charitable, but it's tough. I want to answer his questions, because to me they seem to relate to free will, but I also want to call him on not really answering my questions.
What do you think?
Blessings,
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japhy
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| First Name: | Jeff (you can call me "japhy" | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic (Latin Rite) |
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Posted: Thu May 17th, 2007 06:20 pm |
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(The material here comes from two posts of mine on forums.catholic.com.)
I think the Scriptures point to eternal life as an inheritance that we must come in to, in order to actually "have" or "receive" it. Here's a look through Scripture; this isn't exhaustive, but contains passages which I believe point to the "inheritance" idea, as well as some which are less certain:
And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. (Dan 12:2) At the resurrection is the realization of everlasting life in our entire bodies (as opposed to just our souls).
"And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life." (Matt 19:29) An inheritance is a promise of a future receipt.In him you also, who have heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation, and have believed in him, were sealed with the promised Holy Spirit, which is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it, to the praise of his glory. (Eph 1:13-14) Note Paul does not say "sealed with the promise of the Holy Spirit". He says we are sealed with the Holy Spirit (which we had been promised), and that is the guarantee of our inheritance until we acquire possession of it.
May you be strengthened with all power, according to his glorious might, for all endurance and patience with joy, giving thanks to the Father, who has qualified us to share in the inheritance of the saints in light. (Col 1:11-12) It's like the best "junk" mail ever: "You are already qualified to inherit Eternal Life!"
Whatever your task, work heartily, as serving the Lord and not men, knowing that from the Lord you will receive the inheritance as your reward; you are serving the Lord Christ. (Col 3:23-24) We will receive our inheritance.
Therefore he is the mediator of a new covenant, so that those who are called may receive the promised eternal inheritance, since a death has occurred which redeems them from the transgressions under the first covenant. (Heb 9:15) The eternal inheritance has been promised, but only those who are called will receive it.
Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! By his great mercy we have been born anew to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, and to an inheritance which is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you. (1 Pet 1:3-4) Our promise of eternal life is realized in a heaven. And a ruler asked him, "Good Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?" (Luke 18:18) More inheritance.
And he said to them, "Truly, I say to you, there is no man who has left house or wife or brothers or parents or children, for the sake of the kingdom of God, who will not receive manifold more in this time, and in the age to come eternal life." (Luke 18:29-30) We receive sustinence from God in "this time", and eternal life "in the age to come" (which I interpret as meaning at the end of time).
"And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life." (Matt 25:46) The righteous go into eternal life at the Judgment.
"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." For God so loved the world that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. (John 3:14-16) The juxtaposition of "eternal life" and "perishing" speaks to the ultimate destiny of our bodies.
"But whoever drinks of the water that I shall give him will never thirst; the water that I shall give him will become in him a spring of water welling up to eternal life." (John 4:14) The "water" of Jesus produces a spring, which wells up to eternal life, as if filling a well which measures the completeness of our sanctification, the result being eternal life.
"Do not labor for the food which perishes, but for the food which endures to eternal life, which the Son of man will give to you; for on him has God the Father set his seal. ... He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." (John 6:27, 54) If this is not to contradict with the rest of Scriptures, I think Jesus is speaking of an inheritance acquired by eating his flesh and drinking his blood.
"My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me; and I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand." (John 10:27-28) Jesus is again juxtaposing the giving of eternal life (salvation) with perishing (being condemned).
"And this is eternal life, that they know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3) I guess this is the definition of eternal life, eh? Knowing God is something we accomplish when we are face to face with Him; we know the Father through the Son, but we will know God in His Completeness when we see Him.
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of God; and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed. (Acts 13:48) To "ordain" means "to dictate, to decree; to pre-arrange; to establish". I think this fits in with the "inheritance" economy.
But by your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God's righteous judgment will be revealed. For he will render to every man according to his works: to those who by patience in well-doing seek for glory and honor and immortality, he will give eternal life; but for those who are factious and do not obey the truth, but obey wickedness, there will be wrath and fury. (Rom 2:5-8) On the day of judgment, God gives eternal life to the righteous.
But then what return did you get from the things of which you are now ashamed? The end of those things is death. But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. (Rom 6:21-22) Upon submitting ourselves to the will of God, we begin the process of sanctification, the end of which is eternal life.
For he who sows to his own flesh will from the flesh reap corruption; but he who sows to the Spirit will from the Spirit reap eternal life. (Gal 6:8) Eternal life is the "crop", a life in the Spirit is the "seed".
Fight the good fight of the faith; take hold of the eternal life to which you were called when you made the good confession in the presence of many witnesses. (1 Tim 6:12) I think Paul is challenging them to live their lives as though they have already received what was promised to them, or else he's using emphasis to say "wake up and live like a Christian!"
Paul, a servant of God and an apostle of Jesus Christ, to further the faith of God's elect and their knowledge of the truth which accords with godliness, in hope of eternal life which God, who never lies, promised ages ago. (Tit 1:2) We are in the hope of eternal life, which is a promise from God.
So that we might be justified by his grace and become heirs in hope of eternal life. (Tit 3:7) We are heirs to eternal life (our inheritance).
And this is what he has promised us, eternal life. (1 John 2:25) It is a promise to be realized.
Any one who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him. (1 John 3:15) This is tricky. I think it means that eternal life is a part of us, so long as we are in Christ. That is, eternal life is due to the dwelling of the Spirit of God in us, and so no one without the Spirit of God dwelling in him (such as an unrepentant murderer) has eternal life within him.
And this is the testimony, that God gave us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. He who has the Son has life; he who has not the Son of God has not life. I write this to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life. (1 John 3:11-13) This (which you quoted) is also kind of tricky to reconcile with the previous Scriptures. I think the key is that John says "this life is in his Son", so eternal life isn't "had" as a possession is had, it's "had" in the sense that we abide in it (as it abides in us) when we are in Christ. I'm open to other interpretations, so long as they don't end up contradicting the previous passages.
But you, beloved, build yourselves up on your most holy faith; pray in the Holy Spirit; keep yourselves in the love of God; wait for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life. (Jude 20-21) I think this speaks towards the inheritance of eternal life as the "final act of mercy", if you will, of Jesus Christ to us who remain in him.
____________________
[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
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japhy
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| Joined: | Thu Apr 26th, 2007 |
| Location: | Princeton, New Jersey USA |
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| First Name: | Jeff (you can call me "japhy" | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic (Latin Rite) |
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Posted: Thu May 17th, 2007 06:34 pm |
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In addition, there are Scriptures which attest to our ability to lose (or be disqualified from receiving) salvation:
"Brother will deliver up brother to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death; and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved." (Matthew 10:21-22) Some Christians will "give up" Christ so as not to be put to death or forsaken by others, but those who endure these trials will be saved. That's the future tense. Jesus doesn't say "those who are saved will endure to the end", he says "those who endure to the end will be saved".
"Hear then the parable of the sower. When any one hears the word of the kingdom and does not understand it, the evil one comes and snatches away what is sown in his heart; this is what was sown along the path. As for what was sown on rocky ground, this is he who hears the word and immediately receives it with joy; yet he has no root in himself, but endures for a while, and when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately he falls away. As for what was sown among thorns, this is he who hears the word, but the cares of the world and the delight in riches choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. As for what was sown on good soil, this is he who hears the word and understands it; he indeed bears fruit, and yields, in one case a hundredfold, in another sixty, and in another thirty." (Matthew 13:18-23) Some people hear and rejoice, but cannot withstand persecution and fall away.
"Then they will deliver you up to tribulation, and put you to death; and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. And then many will fall away, and betray one another, and hate one another. And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. And because wickedness is multiplied, most men's love will grow cold. But he who endures to the end will be saved." (Matthew 24:9-13) Again, many will go astray from Jesus the true Christ, but he who endures will be saved. Most men's love will grow cold -- and that means they had love to begin with, but it dies. It's not that they never had love, or that it was "fake" love, but simply that they could not sustain it because of the trials and wickedness around them.
Well, I do not run aimlessly, I do not box as one beating the air; but I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified. (1 Corinthians 9:26-27) Paul was aware he might be disqualified!
Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling. (Philippians 2:12) Why work out a salvation that's already completed? He is writing to a church of Christians after all...
The saying is sure: If we have died with him, we shall also live with him; if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we deny him, he also will deny us; if we are faithless, he remains faithful -- for he cannot deny himself. (2 Timothy 2:11-13) If A, then B. A is a pre-requisite to B. We need to endure to share in his reign. And how can Jesus remain faithful to someone he was never faithful to in the first place? I think that shows that the faithfulness between us and God that comes from the grace of God can be neglected on our part, but never on His part. He will not forsake His own law (salvation through Jesus Christ), even if we do.
For you had compassion on the prisoners, and you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property, since you knew that you yourselves had a better possession and an abiding one. Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward. For you have need of endurance, so that you may do the will of God and receive what is promised. (Hebrews 10:34-36) The confidence being referred to is not the confidence of eternal security; rather, it is the confidence that there is a spiritual reward greater than all earthly possessions combined. That is why he writes that you joyfully accepted the plundering of your property: the reason is because there's a better and lasting possession (which is then named as a promise). Thus, remembering that Heaven holds something greater in store, endure the trials of this world; don't give into the temptations and pleasures of this world.
Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us, looking to Jesus the pioneer and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is seated at the right hand of the throne of God. Consider him who endured from sinners such hostility against himself, so that you may not grow weary or fainthearted. ... It is for discipline that you have to endure. God is treating you as sons; for what son is there whom his father does not discipline? (Hebrews 12:1-3, 7) Don't run half-heartedly, don't quit, but persevere! When you are near exhaustion, remember Jesus and the sufferings he endured, and draw inspiration from that so that you can endure.
Last edited on Thu May 17th, 2007 06:45 pm by japhy
____________________
[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
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Juan
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| Location: | Texas USA |
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Posted: Fri May 18th, 2007 01:33 am |
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purplebear wrote: Thank you all for your kind words of encouragement and prayer.
I've heard back from the minister with the website. My last e-mail questioned his authority to translate the bible. He vaguely attacked my question, but never really answered it. I realized that this is the second round of e-mails that I called him on hard stuff and he didn't really answer my questions. This time he directed me to CCC 2027 which is an "In Brief" to 2010. I've already explained this to my dear friend, so that is easially covered. In a previous e-mail I pointed out that salvation could be lost which is why once saved always saved doesn't fly. This time he gave me a laundry list of verses that show we can't lose salvation. I'm trying to be charitable, but it's tough. I want to answer his questions, because to me they seem to relate to free will, but I also want to call him on not really answering my questions.
What do you think?
Blessings,
Wow! Japhy was thorough!
But to answer your question, that would be an excellent idea. Have you been to this website:
http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/
This fellow has excellent pointers on how to answer apologetic questions. His newsletter is excellent:
http://www.biblechristiansociety.com/newsletter
Sincerely,
Juan
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purplebear
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Posted: Fri May 18th, 2007 11:02 am |
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Thanks! I usually start with Bible Christian Society because he is so good at keeping it all in scripture.
I started formulating my response, but have found a hiccup and need some help. We are still bantering about Apostolic succession. He only accepts Paul and Matthias as beyond the original 12. How do I "prove" Linus came next and so on and so on? How do I show that they have valid authority?
Keep sending me your thoughts! Blessings,
Cindy
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Juan
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Posted: Fri May 18th, 2007 11:56 am |
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Thanks! I usually start with Bible Christian Society because he is so good at keeping it all in scripture.
I started formulating my response, but have found a hiccup and need some help. We are still bantering about Apostolic succession. He only accepts Paul and Matthias as beyond the original 12. How do I "prove" Linus came next and so on and so on? How do I show that they have valid authority?
Keep sending me your thoughts! Blessings,
Cindy
Well, you can't do that from Scripture. You have to go to the Early Church Fathers.
The Catholic Encyclopedia has some info:
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/09272b.htm
I hope that helps.
Sincerely,
Juan
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japhy
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| Joined: | Thu Apr 26th, 2007 |
| Location: | Princeton, New Jersey USA |
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| First Name: | Jeff (you can call me "japhy" | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic (Latin Rite) |
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Posted: Fri May 18th, 2007 12:36 pm |
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purplebear wrote: I started formulating my response, but have found a hiccup and need some help. We are still bantering about Apostolic succession. He only accepts Paul and Matthias as beyond the original 12. How do I "prove" Linus came next and so on and so on? How do I show that they have valid authority?
As for actual succession, why does he believe Matthias "succeeded" Judas, but that no one else succeeded the other Apostles as they died? Is it only because it occurs in Scripture, or is there a mitigating circumstance that makes Matthias's selection "count" as succession and other selections (done by the laying on of hands) not "count".
____________________
[Mary said,] "Do whatever he tells you." - John 2:5
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