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Katy
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| First Name: | Katy | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Non-denom/Bible churches, Catholic since Easter 2005 |
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Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2007 06:55 pm |
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Darlene wrote:
(So if one in an act of faith, chooses to do penance then his actions are pleasing and acceptable to God. And one who practices this tradition without faith but just following church rules by habit, merits nothing for himself and does not please God in his actions. On the other hand, if someone acts in faith by choosing not to practice this penance on this particular day, and their heart does not condemn them, then they also do not offend or displease God.)
So I hope you have a better understanding of my motives here. Those who choose to practice this penance from faith and a pure heart are blessed. And those who choose not to are blessed as well.
Catholics are still called to practice some form of Friday penance though, Darlene.
Rick linked earlier to the Pastoral Letter (specifically read paragraphs 18-28). I think that it very clearly explains the meaning and importance of some type of penance on Fridays in remembrance of Christ's death on the cross for our salvation. Here is one paragraph, but definately go read 18-28:
23. Friday should be in each week something of what Lent is in the entire year. For this reason we urge all to prepare for that weekly Easter that comes with each Sunday by freely making of every Friday a day of self-denial and mortification in prayerful remembrance of the passion of Jesus Christ.
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Lord, by Your cross and resurrection, You have set us free. You are the Savior of the World.
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NanaR
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| First Name: | Ruth | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Born JW, born-again Catholic (Tiber Swim Team 2008) |
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Posted: Thu Jun 14th, 2007 08:06 pm |
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Darlene,
With regard to the verses you cite in St. Paul's Epistle to the Romans, the New American Bible, in its introduction to this Epistle, states regarding the context of Paul's admonition:
Reference http://www.usccb.org/nab/bible/romans/intro.htm
"Opinions vary as to whether Jewish or Gentile Christians predominated in the house churches (cf Romans 16:5) in the capital city of the empire at the time Paul wrote. Perhaps already by then Gentile Christians were in the majority. Paul speaks in Romans of both Jews and Gentiles (Romans 3:9, 29; see the note on Romans 1:14). The letter also refers to those "weak in faith" (Romans 14:1) and those "who are strong" (Romans 15:1); this terminology may reflect not so much differences between believers of Jewish and of Gentile background, respectively, as an ascetic tendency in some converts (Romans 14:2) combined with Jewish laws about clean and unclean foods (Romans 14:14, 20). The issues were similar to problems that Paul had faced in Corinth (1 Cor 8). If Romans 16 is part of the letter to Rome (see the note on Romans 16:1-23), then Paul had considerable information about conditions in Rome through all these people there whom he knew, and our letter does not just reflect a generalized picture of an earlier situation in Corinth."
It certainly does not seem to me that this implied a dissension between the brothers with regard to a practice prescribed by the Apostles (the visible Church), but rather that some were going beyond the teachings of the Apostles and also perhaps "going backwards" to the Jewish laws. It might have been very difficult, in Rome of that time, to obtain meats which would have met Jewish dietary standards; however, the Christians were not required to abide by those standards.
Paul seems to me to be saying that if someone wished to go beyond what had been prescribed for Christians, that was their privilege. They could not, however, demand that others follow or set themselves up as superior because of their own personal higher standard.
In the case of Friday penance, the way in which it must be done has not been prescribed (with the exception of Lent and Good Friday); thus one legacy of Vatican II is that individuals can choose a form of penance which holds meaning for them personally. It does not abrogate the necessity of acting in union with the Church to observe Friday penance.
Like so many things in the Catholic faith, Friday penance is "self-enforced" through an individual's own conscience. This aspect of Catholic worship appeals to me very much, because I am not asked to sit in judgment of my brothers and sisters to decide if they are leading truly "Christian" lives.
In my life, understanding frequently follows obedience. That has been my experience with regard to this and other aspects of Catholic faith.
When Jesus told St. Peter to cast his net on the other side of the boat (when he hadn't caught a fish all day), it would have certainly been easy for St. Peter to protest that it wouldn't do any good. After all, he was a professional fisherman; he knew how to catch fish. But St. Peter didn't say a word. He was simply obedient, and was greatly rewarded for that obedience. (John 21:1-6)
Respectfully,
Ruth
____________________
When you bend down to help someone up, that is the best exercise for your heart. -- Fr. Noe, 2007
http://nanaruthann.blogspot.com
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Ali
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| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Jun 15th, 2007 09:32 am |
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Katy wrote: Catholics are still called to practice some form of Friday penance though, Darlene.
Rick linked earlier to the Pastoral Letter (specifically read paragraphs 18-28).
I seriously did not know this. Have I had my head stuck in the sand or something? How could I not have realized?
Ali
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Jun 15th, 2007 03:47 pm |
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Yes, Ali, Kate is right about this. There may have been some doubt about the 1966 document’s stand on it, but here are a couple of the references from the bishops’ letter from the year 2000, referenced above by Rick, which spell it out plainly (I’ve added emphasis):
If we are serious about embracing the penitential discipline that is rooted in the call to discipleship, then we will identify specific times and places for prayer, penance, and works of charity. Growth in spiritual maturity demands a certain level of specificity, for it shows that we take seriously God's call to discipline and are willing to hold ourselves accountable. In our Catholic tradition we specify certain days and seasons for special works of penance: Fridays, on which we commemorate the death of the Lord, and Lent, our forty days of preparation for the Easter mysteries.…
Fridays Throughout the Year—In memory of Christ's suffering and death, the Church prescribes making each Friday throughout the year a penitential day. All of us are urged to prepare appropriately for that weekly Easter that comes with each Sunday.
It’s been decades now, and it seems that Catholics never got the word that Friday penance never was canceled. So to actually find a Catholic these days who observes the abstinence or performs another penitential act each week is quite rare. In fact, recently a well known Catholic apologist attempted to make a case that the obligation was abrogated by the bishops’ document of 1966. But EWTN has a spot reminding viewers that the obligation does indeed exist.
David
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JillD
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| First Name: | Jill | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | heathen, EvFree, Messianic, LC-MS, Catholic 2007 |
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Posted: Fri Jun 15th, 2007 10:03 pm |
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| OK, duh, but what sorts of things would be considered penitential acts?
____________________
"I praise you, for I am wondrously made. Wonderful are our works! My frame was not hidden from you, when I was being made in secret." Ps 139
"Guard me, O Lord, from the hands of the wicked; preserve me from violent men." Ps 140
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Jun 15th, 2007 11:09 pm |
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JillD wrote:
OK, duh, but what sorts of things would be considered penitential acts?
Glad you asked, because this thread is now getting to be so long and unwieldy that we are losing contact with its original thought. Here are two references that may serve:
1. You can seek out links to the bishops’ original documents which Rick supplied about two thirds of the way down on page one of the thread.
2. You can read a summary of the bishops’ suggestions in my two previous posts in this thread. They occur toward the beginning of page one.
David
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BettyBoopToo
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
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| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Sun Jun 17th, 2007 04:50 am |
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JillD wrote: OK, duh, but what sorts of things would be considered penitential acts?
Jill and anyone else looking for idea's
I've volunteered in our parish office on friday mornings, I help the secretary with folding bulletins, filing, stuffing envelopes, etc. I'm sure you could maybe find a nursing home or elderly care facility that you could stop by and see if any of the residents don't have many visitors, but may really like some company?
My sister & I used to go to our other mentally handicapped sisters home and help her clean up, clean her kitchen, bathroom or drive her to the store to do her shopping so she does not have to ride the bus.
Ask in your parish office as to any members that may be home bound and would like someone to stop to visit, pray with them, or just have tea?
find out where your local "Crisis Pregnancy Center" is located and offer to help them for a couple of hours on friday. They seem to be in constant demand for volunteers.
If you attend mass on friday, wait until others are gone and go around and pick up the hymnals, loose papers or what ever's left on the pew, straighten up and make sure the kneelers are all up. Who ever is supposed to do this duty will really appreciate your considerate help. It's also a great way to just spend a few more minutes with our lord.
Call a friend or relative to visit and see how they've been (One you may feel you've neglected and have not called them in too long)
There are any number of things you can do, You can always not eat meat for something that I feel is very simple. I just don't normally use food unless otherwise instructed, food is not something I go nuts over to begine with. If I only offer my meat, It's like offering nothing, because often times on friday night I eat a salad only and that's because I don't want any meat.
I think its more of a pennance from your heart to remind us of his sacrafice for us. Only God knows how much of a pennance each of us do. I normally keep my pennances to myself and don't even share with my husband.
It’s been decades now, and it seems that Catholics never got the word that Friday penance never was canceled. So to actually find a Catholic these days who observes the abstinence or performs another penitential act each week is quite rare. In fact, recently a well known Catholic apologist attempted to make a case that the obligation was abrogated by the bishops’ document of 1966. But EWTN has a spot reminding viewers that the obligation does indeed exist.
David
I must admit that the first two years I was Catholic, I had no idea about the pennace on friday and had asked why the church had decided to leave our friday pennance for only Fridays of Lent? That's when I was corrected by our director of evangelization that I was supposed to do some type of pennance on friday. Since then I have tried to do some form one way or another.
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
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Posted: Tue Jun 19th, 2007 03:56 pm |
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Darlene wrote:
With that said, I will say what I want to say with regard to the original topic - abstinence from meat on Friday/penance on Friday. I realize that where I have been getting my ideas regarding this practice can be found in Romans 14. I want to preface by saying that the subject, is of course not specifically talking about practice of penance on Friday. But, I think the "spirit" (or more simply put, the "gist") of what Paul is saying applies to our topic.
So I hope you have a better understanding of my motives here. Those who choose to practice this penance from faith and a pure heart are blessed. And those who choose not to are blessed as well. Remember that Jesus broke many laws, such as eating without washing his hands, only to suffer criticism from the Jews. Jesus went on to say that these Jews practiced these traditions without honoring God. And He refrained from washing His hands, which was a strict Jewish custom, and honored His heavenly Father in doing so. Jesus goes on to explain that the Lord is more concerned about what abides within the heart of a man than outward practices.
Darlene,
Thank you for your reply. I am not sure you got a good answer or not to this. I in fact do at times wonder if there is a tension between this passage of scripture and how we practice certain disciplines and liturgical seasons. I may have asked the same question. You state it well as to why you see there being disharmony. I think someone else may be more qualified to answer, but I will say that it probably is important to contrast what Paul was talking about in Romans 14 to how we practice things today.
But to me the answer stll lies in the fact that the churches authority and submission to it come from Christ. Otherwsie it is each man for himself and we were not left with the help we need. For you it may be a matter of the friday penitential act. For another maybe it would be not needing to go to mass on sunday. Or not belieiving there is anything wrong with birth control.
When the church is off the money on one issue, how do we then trust her on the others? If we flat out deny her authority on the Friday penance as binding then why believe in the real presence in the Eucharist or the two natures of Jesus or the canoization of scripture itself? You are back to following your own personal conscience and intelligience.
While I am a fan of personal conscience being crucial, if our consciecne is weakly informed who knows what evils we may be committing or causing to others such as in the birth control issue. Some may see nothing wrong with it, and maybe that makes them in some way less culpable, but the damage of the behavior still is going to happen on some level.
Now, you observe this and other passages talks about certain foods and observing certain days and seems to speak against that. But why then does God Himself command us to keep the sabbath day holy? The ten commandments in my mind still apply even if they are in the Old Testament. What of all he other feasts and observances Jesus participated in? God indeed, I believe, endoreses special times and seasons for celebration worship and fasting. And we also must remember that if we are Catholic (and I do not want to debate about which is first or comes from what) we see authority as flowing from the scriptures and from the church. We believe it is in fact biblical to believe in this church unity and authority. Therfore to undermine the churches authority on some matter is also to undermine the truth of scripture which I believe calls us to be held by what the apostles forgive and bind or loose. We can not both be biblical Christians and pick and choose which church teachings we follow. It would be unbiblical to do so. Remember Paul writes to hold fast to the traditions they were taught whether by word of mouth or by letter.
What about church being on sunday instead of saturday? Is this expressly taught in scripture? I do not think so. Are you against this because it demands a special day be set aside for community worship? Does this also interferere with your choice to honor God how you personally wish? Or do you also not believe in this? I think most Christians (minus some like seven day adventists and others) believe it is indeed important to observe Sunday as a Sabbath. If we can acknowledge this even though it is not technically in the Bible, why reject a day for universal penitence? Yet we see in the Bible that God ordered us to set aside a specific day and keep it holy and that scripture commands us to not foraske getting together. Therfore, it makes sense that all everywhere agree to do this on Sunday in addition to whatever other persoanl opportunities for fellowship and worship we have.
Now I wanted to show you some scriptural evidence that the concept of fasting and penitential acts is not necessarily seen as a matter of personal choice or what and when you feel like doing. We can see verses indicating that fasting can and should be practiced corporately. Making more sense of the idea to all do it on a Friday, because it is the easiest way to unify us and the day chrsit died for us. Otherwise what else would we do to with one mind worship Christ in this way? If we know that to fast as a body is good for us then how else can we practice this. The Friday is to be seen as a sort of lent for each week's Easter of Sunday. How much more beautiful and useful to us could this be? Anyway, on to the verses.
First I will not quote these but I have a lot of them if you are not familiar with them, in the Old Testament of fasts being declared for one purpose or another in seeking God's mercy, and note how much it pleases God when this is done. Actually I will show some.
21 There, by the Ahava Canal, I proclaimed a fast, so that we might humble ourselves before our God and ask him for a safe journey for us and our children, with all our possessions. 22 I was ashamed to ask the king for soldiers and horsemen to protect us from enemies on the road, because we had told the king, "The gracious hand of our God is on everyone who looks to him, but his great anger is against all who forsake him." 23 So we fasted and petitioned our God about this, and he answered our prayer.
Joel 1
13 Put on sackcloth, O priests, and mourn;
wail, you who minister before the altar.
Come, spend the night in sackcloth,
you who minister before my God;
for the grain offerings and drink offerings
are withheld from the house of your God.
14 Declare a holy fast;
call a sacred assembly.
Summon the elders
and all who live in the land
to the house of the LORD your God,
and cry out to the LORD.
Note in the first passage how the communal fasting is very effective. In the second note how God Himself is asking that people to fast.
Now to the New Testament.
Mark 2
20But the time will come when the bridegroom will be taken from them, and on that day they will fast.
They will fast. Fasting can be and should be done personally but there is also power to all of us reaching out to God. If he honored it in the Old Testament why would He not want it continued in the New Covenant?
Acts 13
2While they were worshiping the Lord and fasting, the Holy Spirit said, "Set apart for me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." 3So after they had fasted and prayed, they placed their hands on them and sent them off.
Acts 14
23Paul and Barnabas appointed elders for them in each church and, with prayer and fasting, committed them to the Lord, in whom they had put their trust.
So you see a power to communal fasting or penance. If we do not choose a day to do it, how can this get done regularly in a way allChristians can contribute?
Now on to a quote from the Didache which is possibly the earliest writing we have regarding the practice of the Early Church. This is from roughly AD 70 showing that even in the earliest church while some of the apostles were still alive tha the idea of fasting on Friday (well just the idea of choosing certain days) was already established.
8:1 And let not your fastings be with the hypocrites, for they fast on the second and the fifth day of the week; but do ye keep your fast on the fourth and on the preparation (the sixth) day.
So you see that even in the earliest days there was the concept of fasting on specific days for everyone.
Anyway, Darlene this has been a good and challenging discussion. I hope that I am in some way able to help you see the benefit of the Friday penitential act and the idea that scripture is not against it as you may think, that we could use scripture to justify it. I hope that if you do believe in your heart at some point that you do think the Catholic Church is what she says she is that this matter will not keep you from th ejoy of unity with us in the sacramental and liturgical life of the church.
As far as Jesus breaking certain rules...Sometimes I wonder about this too. And like you I believe it really is the spirit of the law that counts more than the letter of the law. But the thing is. He was Jesus. He was God. He knew exactly what the heart of the matter was and how to accomplish it. I do not think we can look at His example and say, see he broke some laws so I can just choose when I want to. Especially when we believe that He set up the authority of the church to guide us. Just because He broke (if He did) certain traditions does not mean He would want us to feel free to ignore the very traditions that He gave the church the authority to replace and fulfill those older obligations. We have established a New covenant fulfilling the old. This one will not pass away. Either it guides us correctly or it does not and we are on our own.
let me know what you think. I hope my reply is accurate in what I am conveying. God bless you on your search.
Brian
(feel free to send that PM if you still want to, but don't feel like you have to though I think replying to this subject here would be a good idea)
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