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Jackie
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 07:15 pm |
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Acts 17:10-12a The brothers immediatly sent Paul and Silas to Beroea during the night. Upon arrival they went to the Synagogue of the Jews. These Jews were more fairminded than those in Thessalonica, for they received the word with all willingness and examined the scriptures daily to determine whether these things were so. Many of them became believers,......
Two questions because I have a friend who ALWAYS tells me to be a Berean!!!!!!!
1) examined the scriptures daily- what scriptures, OT?
2) what things were so. That the Messiah (Jesus) actually came and fufilled the OT prophecy?
My friend spits it out like poison, refering to the fact that in his, Bible Only mindset, I cannot know Jesus thru Tradition or the Church.
The topic we discussed was regarding Baptism and he is a "believers baptism" kinda guy but thats my question for another thread.
Whadda you think?
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 07:25 pm |
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Catholic apologist Steve Ray has a great article on the Bereans (in Microsoft Word format).
Last edited on Thu Feb 28th, 2008 07:27 pm by Dave Armstrong
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Kim M.
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 08:34 pm |
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"With a bluster of sound and furry James White..."
lol Is James a little fuzzy fellow? Just a big teddy bear?
Sorry, couldn't resist! A house full of sickies and I'm a bit punchy. 
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Jackie
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Posted: Thu Feb 28th, 2008 11:52 pm |
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SLAM DUNK
This was one of the most informative arguments against using this verse to support the idea of Scripture Only. (no Tradition) I think the point is well made, that in fact, the Thessalonians should have been considered the Bereans since they adhered to the OT scripture instead of agreeing to the new (oral) revelation Paul was introducing. As I digest it more, I feel stupid that I could not see the glaring discrepency for myself.
I certainly could not understand my friends using this verse to me as if I couldn't find Scripture to support my point (necessity of Baptism) And I might conceed that I am not as smart as he regarding chapter & verse but heck, I know something after sitting in that pew for the last 45 years hearing OT, NT and Gospel readings every week. Never mind daily Mass or the CCC or comentaries ect.
Well anyway, Dave your cool  I get a kick out of the wealth of knowledge you can impart in a single sentence. That was a great read. J
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 03:55 pm |
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You're very kind, but remember, the article was by Steve Ray, not me!
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Jackie
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Posted: Fri Feb 29th, 2008 04:15 pm |
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Humble and I know you get my meaning, that 'one sentence' directed me to Steve Ray
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tedjenczewski
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Posted: Sat Mar 1st, 2008 01:11 am |
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| Dave Thanx for the reference to Steve Ray's article. I read it today and found the arguments well taken. It will be useful to me in my discussions about "Sola Scriptura".
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 05:28 pm |
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| You're welcome. That is a very useful article indeed, because this objection often comes up when discussing sola Scriptura.
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hpj0828
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 09:41 pm |
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The very institution of the synagogue is one of tradition, rather than OT revelation. The Torah establishes the institution of the Tabernacle and the worship associated with it. It contains no mention whatsoever of the synagogue!
The synagogue arose as an adaptation from the Babylonian Exile. The Temple sacrifices commanded in the Torah could not be offered by Jews in Babylon, whose very Temple had been destroyed by Nebudchanezzer. How were Jews to meet together for worship in such a situation?
In Nehemiah 8, we can see the earliest conceptual roots for the synagogue. But, the whole synagogue system came about as an adaptation from tradition to replace Temple worship for Jews in the diaspora. So, the synagogue prayers occurred at hours of the day when Temple sacrifices were held. These prayers were a substitute for Temple sacrifices which could not be attended by worshippers far outside the confines of the Holy Land.
The Pharisees were the ones who innovated the idea that a study of the written word of God could provide the reader with the knowledge of God's will. Under this tradition originating with the Pharisees, the worshipper would not need to go to a prophet or high priest to receive knowledge of the will of God. Such a worshipper could know God's will for his life from the Scripture on many things. Where this will was not clearly defined in the limits of the text, rabbinical interpretation of Scripture applied certain verses to obtain rulings about how Jews should live in the diaspora situation which is not even envisioned in the Torah's Laws. So, we have the Pharisees, fathers of Jewish traditionalism, to thank for the Bereans' very habit of studying the Scriptures!
If the Bereans did not wholeheartedly revere the traditions of the rabbis who preceded them, there would be no synagogue in Berea, no Torah read there and no careful scribes who compared Paul's new teaching with the Scriptures. BTW, the same reverence for tradition, alongside reverence for the written Word of God, marks the Thessalonians and all 1st C Jews who worshipped in synagogues both within and without the borders of the holy land.
Thank God for Tradition!
Bravo Bereans!
Henry
Last edited on Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 09:53 pm by hpj0828
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Kim M.
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 10:19 pm |
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hpj0828 wrote: The very institution of the synagogue is one of tradition, rather than OT revelation. The Torah establishes the institution of the Tabernacle and the worship associated with it. It contains no mention whatsoever of the synagogue!
The synagogue arose as an adaptation from the Babylonian Exile. The Temple sacrifices commanded in the Torah could not be offered by Jews in Babylon, whose very Temple had been destroyed by Nebudchanezzer. How were Jews to meet together for worship in such a situation?
In Nehemiah 8, we can see the earliest conceptual roots for the synagogue. But, the whole synagogue system came about as an adaptation from tradition to replace Temple worship for Jews in the diaspora. So, the synagogue prayers occurred at hours of the day when Temple sacrifices were held. These prayers were a substitute for Temple sacrifices which could not be attended by worshippers far outside the confines of the Holy Land.
The Pharisees were the ones who innovated the idea that a study of the written word of God could provide the reader with the knowledge of God's will. Under this tradition originating with the Pharisees, the worshipper would not need to go to a prophet or high priest to receive knowledge of the will of God. Such a worshipper could know God's will for his life from the Scripture on many things. Where this will was not clearly defined in the limits of the text, rabbinical interpretation of Scripture applied certain verses to obtain rulings about how Jews should live in the diaspora situation which is not even envisioned in the Torah's Laws. So, we have the Pharisees, fathers of Jewish traditionalism, to thank for the Bereans' very habit of studying the Scriptures!
If the Bereans did not wholeheartedly revere the traditions of the rabbis who preceded them, there would be no synagogue in Berea, no Torah read there and no careful scribes who compared Paul's new teaching with the Scriptures. BTW, the same reverence for tradition, alongside reverence for the written Word of God, marks the Thessalonians and all 1st C Jews who worshipped in synagogues both within and without the borders of the holy land.
Thank God for Tradition!
Bravo Bereans!
Henry
Wow! Fascinating, Henry! I never thought about how synagogues were started. Thanks for that insight.
____________________
"A joyful heart is the health of the body, but a depressed spirit dries up the bones." Proverbs 17:22
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 01:18 am |
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hpj0828 wrote: The very institution of the synagogue is one of tradition, rather than OT revelation.
Henry, you have no idea how happy I am you decided to join us. I hope you never leave! There is so much about Judaism we Catholics can learn!
With Holy Week coming, I hope you will take the time to prepare something for us on Passover, and how it is similar to and different from our observance on Holy (Maundy) Thursday! We have no synagogue in my area, and I would dearly love an explanation of an authentic Seder meal.
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Kim M.
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 01:27 am |
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CajunRick wrote: We have no synagogue in my area, and I would dearly love an explanation of an authentic Seder meal.
Always thinking about food! 
I would love to know this as well, Henry!
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 02:37 am |
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Kim M. wrote: CajunRick wrote: We have no synagogue in my area, and I would dearly love an explanation of an authentic Seder meal.
Always thinking about food!
I'm Cajun, what do you expect?
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Kim M.
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 02:44 am |
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CajunRick wrote: Kim M. wrote: CajunRick wrote: We have no synagogue in my area, and I would dearly love an explanation of an authentic Seder meal.
Always thinking about food!
I'm Cajun, what do you expect?
Be what you is, dude!
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"A joyful heart is the health of the body, but a depressed spirit dries up the bones." Proverbs 17:22
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hpj0828
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 01:58 pm |
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Kim M. wrote: hpj0828 wrote:
Wow! Fascinating, Henry! I never thought about how synagogues were started. Thanks for that insight.
Thanks Kim and Rick. You are both an encouragement to me. I am continuing to work on my book. It is great to see situations where truths from the Jewish background of the NT help people in the pews today.
As you can see, from the perspective of knowledge of the Jewish background of the NT, so many of the arguments I hear between Protestants and Catholics seem to be rather silly... because they don't take this information into account.
You have been blessings to me.
Mazeltov!
Henry
PS. I am giving a presentation to the charismatic prayer group at my parish tonight about the afikomen ritual within the seder and how it points to Jesus as Messiah. Pray for me! I will try to create a post which explains this soon.
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Kim M.
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 02:11 pm |
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hpj0828 wrote: Kim M. wrote: hpj0828 wrote:
Wow! Fascinating, Henry! I never thought about how synagogues were started. Thanks for that insight.
Thanks Kim and Rick. You are both an encouragement to me. I am continuing to work on my book. It is great to see situations where truths from the Jewish background of the NT help people in the pews today.
As you can see, from the perspective of knowledge of the Jewish background of the NT, so many of the arguments I hear between Protestants and Catholics seem to be rather silly... because they don't take this information into account.
You have been blessings to me.
Mazeltov!
Henry
PS. I am giving a presentation to the charismatic prayer group at my parish tonight about the afikomen ritual within the seder and how it points to Jesus as Messiah. Pray for me! I will try to create a post which explains this soon.
So when we sing "Tradition!" when watching Fiddler on the Roof we can do so with gusto! 
Mazeltov to you, Henry! You are a blessing, as well.  All aspects of our Christian heritage are most assuredly welcome. And a rich heritage it is! Please let us know when you get your book published. I'm sure many of us would love to read it. Are you going to be the Jewish Scott Hahn?
I will pray for your presentation. 
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"A joyful heart is the health of the body, but a depressed spirit dries up the bones." Proverbs 17:22
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 07:38 pm |
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Hi Henry,
I gladly add to the kudos for your posts, which are always fascinating and educational in equal parts.
I once attended a Passover dinner, conducted by a Messianic Jew. It was really cool. I'd love to go to one with an Orthodox Jewish family, if they'd have me. I keep saying I'd like to attend a synagogue too, but I never get around to it. One of these days . . .
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http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Jackie
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 08:26 pm |
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Wait Wait Wait......no talk about seder, muzzle the reptile
Henry: Under this tradition originating with the Pharisees, the worshipper would not need to go to a prophet or high priest to receive knowledge of the will of God. Such a worshipper could know God's will for his life from the Scripture on many things.
Wouldn't that give credence to my friends being a Berean AND interpreting the Scriptures for himself? Or am I confussing myself?
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hpj0828
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 09:23 pm |
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The point is that the Bereans read the Scriptures in the light of a rabbinic tradition that preceded them. Within the stream of this tradition, they interpreted Scripture to apply it to their life situation.
The synagogue and its traditions were so much a part of their lives that these shaped their very approach to the Scriptures. The disciples of a rabbi were responsible for memorizing the teachings of all the prominent rabbis in their chain of ordination (smicha). Such disciples were conscious of the stream of tradition in which they sat.
One simply can't use the Bereans whose whole lives were a product of traditions centuries old and use them for an argument that they interpreted Scriptures somehow apart from these traditions in a "Scripture Only" position.
Actually, even Protestants who claim to believe in Sola Scriptura approach Scripture from their cultural background. They may be unaware of how much this background has shaped their very approach to the Scriptures. For this reason, they are under the illusion that they are able to read Scripture alone apart from a tradition of their culture.
Such people are like Southerners who claim they speak English without an accent! While Northerners all have Yankee accents! (Or vice versa! )
Once you study the history of theological interpretation, you realize that we all stand in such a tradition as we approach Scripture, whether we admit it our not...
Henry
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Kim M.
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 10:10 pm |
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Henry, do you have a blog? You should! Good stuff!
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Jackie
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 11:04 pm |
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Thank you Henry
One simply can't use the Bereans whose whole lives were a product of traditions centuries old and use them for an argument that they interpreted Scriptures somehow apart from these traditions in a "Scripture Only" position.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2008 12:56 am |
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Kim M. wrote: Henry, do you have a blog? You should! Good stuff!
NO! We want him to post it all here!
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Rick Luquette
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Kim M.
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Posted: Wed Mar 5th, 2008 02:25 am |
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CajunRick wrote: Kim M. wrote: Henry, do you have a blog? You should! Good stuff!
NO! We want him to post it all here!
Cut and paste! Cut and paste!
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"A joyful heart is the health of the body, but a depressed spirit dries up the bones." Proverbs 17:22
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