 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
swordswoman
Member
| Joined: | Tue Feb 19th, 2008 |
| Location: | Williamsburg, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 14 |
| First Name: | AnnieO | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Lutheran, Mormon (!), Catholic, Buddhist (!), Lutheran |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Apr 18th, 2008 10:34 pm |
|
My question is something that is disturbing me a little, now that I have begun to consider returning to the Church.
You know how a very convincing Catholic argument (which I agree with) talks about Protestant sects numbering more and more all the time. That if they disagree with each other, there is no Authority to determine if they are heretical or not, but they just split off and start another denomination?
Well, I was wondering. There are Catholics from the ultra-liberal to the ultra-conservative, one end of the spectrum to the other. So, how does this vast range of beliefs, even though Catholics are supposed to all believe the same thing, still comprise the Catholic Church? I mean, it seems like Catholics, if they behaved like Protestants, would have thousands upon thousands of denominations too.
Can anyone give me a good take on this?
Thanks,
____________________
AnnieO
|
|
|
wmschrader
Member
| Joined: | Fri Dec 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Fort Myers, Florida USA |
| Posts: | 82 |
| First Name: | Bill | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Methodist, Lutheran, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 12:02 am |
|
Good Catholic's believe what the Church teaches - the Catechism is a reflection of that truth.
Last edited on Sat Apr 19th, 2008 12:02 am by wmschrader
____________________
Bill
Glory be to God for all things
|
|
|
Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1184 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Apr 19th, 2008 12:46 am |
|
Hi Annie,
I dealt with this very question (which comes up a lot) in this paper:
Dissident Catholics and Catholic Doctrinal Unity: A Contradiction?
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
|
|
|
Christine
Member
| Joined: | Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 |
| Location: | Williamsburg, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 3 |
| First Name: | Christine | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Lutheran, Mormon(barely), Catholic, Buddhist(!), Lutheran |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 11:12 pm |
|
 I was AnnieO, but my account never worked right, so now I'm Christine! Hi how are ya!
Anyway, You guys are really helping me to understand stuff well. I guess I'm to understand that the difference is that Protestants split off from churches for doctrinal differences (or much less, sometimes stupid stuff!) But Catholics have the doctrinal standard regardless of whether people choose to obey or not, so if they have differences, it is to their detriment. Is that a fair assessment?
Thanks, any other comments would be appreciated!
____________________
Christine
|
|
|
DrDave
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
| Posts: | 209 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 01:07 am |
|
Hi Christine/AnnieO/Swordswoman 
I think you are on the right track. The Catholic Church teaches what it teaches. People either accept those teachings or reject them. People either claim to be Catholic or don't.
In a general sense, what makes one Catholic is a valid, Trinitarian, water, baptism. What makes one a 'Good' Catholic is the extent one follows the teachings of Christ, and by extension his Church. This is what matters!
That some people 'claim' to be Catholic, or even more so claim to be 'Good Catholics' while 'claiming' to reject some teachings of the Church shows that they are at best ignorant of reality.
This applies not only to Catholicism, but to any organization. For example I can talk with a rather convincing southern American accent. If I were to talk with this accent, to people who don't know me, and claim to be an U.S. citizen, I could probably convince them to believe me. But their belief, (or my own if I managed to delude myself), would not alter the reality that I have never been to the U.S. have no relatives born in the U.S. and am not now nor ever have been a U.S. citizen.
'Dissident Catholics', for want of a better term, by how they portray themselves, demonstrate that they are either 'bad' Catholics, in need of the sacrament of confession, or simply not Catholics at all. Their claim to the title 'Catholic' does not change their reality.
Regards Doc
Last edited on Thu Apr 24th, 2008 01:16 am by DrDave
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4954 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 02:14 am |
|
DrDave wrote: For example I can talk with a rather convincing southern American accent. If I were to talk with this accent, to people who don't know me, and claim to be an U.S. citizen, I could probably convince them to believe me.
 Somehow, I have a feeling your southern US accent is about as good as my Ozzie accent, which is good enough to fool a resident of the southern US, but I'm quite certain would be laughed off of a certain southern continent.
And of course, we Cajuns do not have a "southern US" accent, so we'd consider you a foreigner either way!
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
DrDave
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
| Posts: | 209 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 03:06 am |
|
CajunRick wrote: Somehow, I have a feeling your southern US accent is about as good as my Ozzie accent, which is good enough to fool a resident of the southern US, but I'm quite certain would be laughed off of a certain southern continent.
And of course, we Cajuns do not have a "southern US" accent, so we'd consider you a foreigner either way!
But... that is my point, the true American (cajun?) would not recognise my claim, but the ignorant outsider might. The same holds true for the orthodox (right thinking) Catholic, who hears a 'Catholic' politician who supports abortion rights, they know there is no such thing!
Regards Doc
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1697 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 04:23 am |
|
| “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber; but he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the gatekeeper opens; the sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. When he has brought out all his own, he goes before them, and the sheep follow him, for they know his voice. A stranger they will not follow, but they will flee from him, for they do not know the voice of strangers.” – John 10:1–5
|
|
|
Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1184 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 06:59 pm |
|
Protestants split off from churches for doctrinal differences (or much less, sometimes stupid stuff!) But Catholics have the doctrinal standard regardless of whether people choose to obey or not, so if they have differences, it is to their detriment. Is that a fair assessment?
Exactly. Or another way to put it is that Protestants institutionalize error or sin by making them part of their "official" doctrine. We do not. It's clear what we believe, and whoever dissents from it is a heterodox Catholic.
Folks can talk about people who claim to be "good Catholics," and believe a whole host of things. The question is whether they are faithful, obedient, orthodox Catholics, and of what the Church teaches.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
|
|
|
Christine
Member
| Joined: | Wed Apr 23rd, 2008 |
| Location: | Williamsburg, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 3 |
| First Name: | Christine | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Lutheran, Mormon(barely), Catholic, Buddhist(!), Lutheran |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 06:50 pm |
|
Thanks, guys--you have helped me to sort this out in plain language, and it seems so foolishly simple that I asked the question in the first place. But I guess it's helpful because not only can I understand it myself but am able to paraphrase you guys when I may have to explain things to other people who aren't so willing to accept Catholic teaching.
So CajunRick & Dr Dave, you might be able to fool people with your accents, but Dave Armstrong and I, being Michiganders, can't fool anyone with our accents...eh, Dave? hee hee 
____________________
Christine
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4954 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 07:05 pm |
|
Christine wrote: So CajunRick & Dr Dave, you might be able to fool people with your accents, but Dave Armstrong and I, being Michiganders, can't fool anyone with our accents...eh, Dave? hee hee
I grew up in south Louisiana but was actually surrounded by lots of ethnic influences (a Texan next door, a Jew across the street, etc.) so I never really grew up with an accent. Or, more correctly, I have what's known as a "General American accent".
In essence what that means is that when I travel, everyone always thinks I'm from somewhere else!
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
BeProf
Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 59 |
| First Name: | Ed | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independent Fundamental Baptist - Atheism - Christian & Missionary Alliance |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Apr 28th, 2008 12:45 pm |
|
CajunRick wrote:
(a Texan next door, a Jew across the street, etc.)
Oy gevalt, y'all?
|
|
|
Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1184 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Apr 28th, 2008 05:08 pm |
|
. . . but Dave Armstrong and I, being Michiganders, can't fool anyone with our accents . . .
Accent? What accent? We just talk normal up here in Michigan, no?
I do love the twang, though, that most of the rest of the country seems to have (according to these Michigan ears). We only have to travel 100 miles or so into Ohio or into Indiana and it already seems like folks have an "accent."
Anyone can hear me talk by listening to any of my collected radio interviews. You'll quickly see why I am a writer and have not pursued the lecture circuit!  The skills involved in writing and talking to large numbers of people are vastly different. Unlike most apologists, I've never particularly cared about giving lectures and passionate speeches. I'd rather have a simple, laid-back conversation, and so radio works for me because interviews are mostly like that, and it fits in with my preferred way of doing things.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
|
|
|
rbo4u2
Member
| Joined: | Tue Jan 16th, 2007 |
| Location: | Sunnyvale, California USA |
| Posts: | 318 |
| First Name: | Rich | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Formerly Christian & Missionary Alliance then became Presbyterian |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Apr 28th, 2008 05:33 pm |
|
Dave Armstrong wrote:
Protestants split off from churches for doctrinal differences (or much less, sometimes stupid stuff!) But Catholics have the doctrinal standard regardless of whether people choose to obey or not, so if they have differences, it is to their detriment. Is that a fair assessment?
Exactly. Or another way to put it is that Protestants institutionalize error or sin by making them part of their "official" doctrine. We do not. It's clear what we believe, and whoever dissents from it is a heterodox Catholic.
Folks can talk about people who claim to be "good Catholics," and believe a whole host of things. The question is whether they are faithful, obedient, orthodox Catholics, and of what the Church teaches.
So...allow me to Californicate this argument. (I couldn't spell Protestifornicate) So we Protestants, protest against each other's doctrine and start new denominations. Catholics protest against the Church's doctrine and they become heterodox or whatever ox you gore. Seems to me heterodox Catholics who protest the Catholic church then want to act like Protestants but simply maintain the "shell" of a Catholic. Either way, you have schism and destruction based upon anger or at best, lack of love. Satan just loves to display this for all the world to laugh at. No wonder the world turns their back on us.
Rich
|
|
|
Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1184 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Apr 28th, 2008 08:11 pm |
|
| You hit the nail on the head, Rich!
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
|
|
|
Steven Barrett
Member
|
Posted: Sat May 3rd, 2008 02:22 am |
|
I could be way off on this, but couldn't the issue of the Church's (rightfull, of course) claim of infallibility be a good jumping off point to demonstrate Her claim to unity?
Without any claim of infallibility, it opens the door wide open to any number of groups not only acting infallibly as if each person was his/her own pope--which a lot of evangelical Protestants are wont to do already...but for one central, key, and grounded institution to claim it based not only on the Scripture it uses, but also history and appeals to logical reason, it therefore sets the standard by which any group has to decide by. Do they wish to break the established norm and dare to claim that they follow an infallible source of their own choosing, or do they have the humility to work within the Church and not go off on their own accord.
While the CC never taught against us developing private and personal relationships with God (quite the opposite, the Church certainly did want us to become closer to God and Jesus) but it also taught us not to be so haughty with our relationships with God that we'd forget where and Whom the Church originated from.
It's one thing for me or anyone to say I have a per sonal relationship with Jesus, it's quite another to think of it in terms that it's of a superior quality (so-to-speak) than what the Church teaches is the ideal, esp. if the Church can prove that this is a relationship is affected and shaped by pride of all things.
A church that denies its own infallibility, and any and all churches that aren't Catholic, by logic fall into this catagory, is a church that sets itself up for more disunity. BUt what about the Orthodox, say in comparison to the western Protestants? THe Orthodox never denied the infallibility of the original creeds, teachings, etc. whereas the Protestants in their zeal to establish a spiritual version of a Christian anarchist's version of heaven on earth, did everything short of pulling the bedsheets off even before settling down to a evening sleep, only to bitterly complain amongst themselves as to whose idea it was in the first place to make everyone have a bad sleep.
Trust me: they won't get that far because then they'd have to admit who made the beds in the first place and have to answer to Him as to why they messed up everything He did for them ahead of time. In this case, the blearied will no doubt elect, as they have for five centuries thus far, to infallibly claim a preference for fallibility and wondering why they can't find any unity, despite all their hardest efforts to bring about communities and congregations of "like minded worshippers."
Keep jackhammering the foundations guys and see where it leads to. You don't have to be the Pope or an engineering major at MIT to figure out the answer and say so infallibly.
____________________
For anyone suffering from a mental illness or has a loved one with a mental illness, my book "Lead kindly Light: A Devotional For The Mentally Ill" might be of some help: http://www.lulu.com/ (Use search box at the top of page.)
|
|
|
Current time is 11:27 am | |
|
|
|
|
|
