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Jana
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| First Name: | Jana | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic, Baptist, Non-Denominational, Undecided |
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Posted: Sat Jun 21st, 2008 07:47 pm |
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My friend is a cradle Catholic who briefly tried Evangelical Christianity then returned to Catholicism. This friend has a particular interest in studying the lives of saints and hoping to become one. They practice some unusual physical behaviors that most people would consider to be unhealthy or even unsafe. These things are in the interest of trying to create a supernatural experience that will result in their sainthood.
Please comment.
Reminder – I am not Catholic and have not yet studied Catholicism. I was confirmed Catholic, but never understood the Church or its traditions. I moved on to become a Baptist because the teaching was straight forward and easy for me to understand. I would prefer that you not criticize my ignorance or slowness in understanding. However, if it be necessary to do so in order to comment on the situation above, I’ll take it.
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...whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy - meditate on these...
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Jun 21st, 2008 08:34 pm |
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Hello again, Jana. If you are worried about being considered a simpleton, be advised that we work hard on this forum to speak to people at their level.
You may have thought that my comment in another thread was belittling, but it was not intended in this way. We have to establish a ground from which to build, and at that point I did not know how much you had studied Catholicism before asking your question. Many of those who come to the forum have already done a lot of reading or have been absorbing Catholic doctrine and ambience from other sources, such as EWTN. If you have not, then we will deal appropriately from now on.
Now regarding your question about the unusual behavior of saints. There are a few examples of this, but mostly a saint is a person who has not only received grace from God but has used that grace to good effect. In other words, he has responded to God’s invitation and empowerment to grow not only in stature but in wisdom and virtue. He has answered the call to eternal union with God in heaven.
In order to become a canonized saint (one recognized by the Church), a person must first demonstrate what we call heroic virtue. This is to adhere to the path of righteousness in all circumstances, to strive hard to break bad habits and develop good ones. There must be, above all, strong evidence of charity — which in Christian terminology is a selfless love for others, a giving of oneself to those around him for the sake of God. This does not need to include frightful physical penances, for just bearing with the imperfections of others (not to mention one’s own imperfections!) can indeed be a similar experience on a more spiritual level.
One becomes a saint not by experiencing things but by adhering to the will of God. That will is manifested in the commandments and other norms that we read about in the bible and are promulgated by the Church. But on a higher level it is manifested in inspirations and warnings which come from God by way of the conscience and the inner listening to God which is prayer. In fact, we believe that a person who does not pray cannot be saved; so prayer is the essential and fundamental communication and adherence to God.
All human beings are called to be saints. For this reason, we believe that the basic necessity for any Christian is faith and the proper human response to faith, which is prayer. As we learn through prayer what we are to do, we must follow the path God has given in love. “So faith, hope, love abide, these three; but the greatest of these is love. Make love your aim” (1 Corinthians 13:13–14:1). This is the true course of saints.
David
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Jana
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Posted: Sat Jun 21st, 2008 08:46 pm |
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Thank you David.
Let's say a person is demonstrating "heroic virtue" as well as subjecting themselves to "frightful physical penances." Should we not be concerned about the latter?
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...whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy - meditate on these...
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sat Jun 21st, 2008 10:16 pm |
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Usually it’s not necessary to do both, Jana. The physical penance part is generally seen these days as an “extraordinary way” not suited for most people.
There are some things I do for my health; I have several medical conditions that make this necessary. Most people can stay relatively healthy with only a few restrictions; I don’t have that latitude. So if I follow a strict diet or follow certain other rigorous routines, it is because I personally have need of it. On the other hand, we now know that certain practices once considered medically necessary, such as bleeding a person to alleviate an infection, are actually harmful and should be avoided.
Likewise, only a few people actually have need of more severe practices to keep them spiritually healthy. And what was considered necessary in ancient times is often seen as detrimental now. But we can all become saints if we will by following where God leads. He led the Israelites through the desert; their goal was the promised land. We have our own promised land — heaven. By what way will God lead us? Without a certain “desert experience,” I doubt if most of us will arrive at heaven’s gate ready to enter in and take possession of our heritage.
Certainly we should be concerned about someone who is going overboard and actually killing himself with excess, whether physically or spiritually. But that happens rarely, and when it does, usually there is a mental or emotional problem behind it. So the person should usually be approached from a psychological standpoint rather than a spiritual one.
To answer your question directly: Yes, I agree with you in most cases where severe physical penances are being practiced. Psychology and spiritual theology have come a long way over the centuries. I have not seen many people practicing extraordinary penances these days; if anything, human society has become extraordinarily soft, to the point that even such obviously beneficial things as moderate physical exercise are seen as “too much.” This, I’m sure you can see, is the opposite extreme and no better than the one you bring up.
David
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Jun 22nd, 2008 01:57 am |
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I think it's also important to specify just what we mean by "saint". This is not a theological or doctrinal definition but a simple explanation of my own thoughts, since that's what you asked for.
Put simply, a "saint" is someone who tries to live a holy life pleasing to God. Blessed Teresa of Calcutta defined holiness as doing ordinary things extraordinarily. There are countless ordinary people who have followed the path of holiness in their lives. They are not perfect; on the contrary, many have been notorious sinners to turned their lives around. I have been present at the deaths of many people who ended their lives in such joy that I truly believe they are saints in heaven today. We celebrate their feast in the Latin Church on the Solemnity of All Saints on November 1.
From among these countless, nameless saints are a select few who's path to holiness has been recognized by the Church in a process known as "canonization". It simply means their names have been added to a list of saints and public devotion has been approved in their names. Churches may be named after them, novenas celebrated in their honor, statues placed in front of churches, etc. They are the "heroes of the faith". Many gave their lives for Christ (they are called martyrs) and many others lived lives of pain and suffering. But many lived quite well. St. Louis, King of France, was recognized for his piety even during his life. He led a crusade in an attempt to regain Christian control of the Holy Land.
Priests, nuns, and brothers who are members of religious orders or who founded religious institutes or societies are more likely to be canonized simply because there is an organization in place to do the leg work. Lay people are recognized less often, although there are many canonized saints who led quite ordinary lives. I believe the total number of saints recognized by the Church is somewhere under 5000.
No saint has ever considered him or herself a saint. To do so would indicate an unhealthy amount of pride, and that alone would probably be enough to disqualify them from consideration. Saints are humble servants of God and their fellow humans.
I want to be a saint, too. When I say that, I mean I want to spend eternity in "Eucharist" (thanksgiving) with my Savior and in glorious praise of God. Once a generation or two has passed, chances are no one will even know I existed. But that's OK, because God will know. I'll be gloriously happy to have the last seat in the back corner of heaven. But if I'm there, that's all that will matter.
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Jana
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Posted: Sun Jun 22nd, 2008 02:28 pm |
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| If a person is physically harming themselves and refuses psycological help because their acts are intended to serve as penance for themselves or others, can/will the Church intervene?
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...whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy - meditate on these...
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Jun 22nd, 2008 05:35 pm |
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If a person is physically harming themselves and refuses psychological help because their acts are intended to serve as penance for themselves or others, can/will the Church intervene?
Surely a person who has already rejected help from the usual (human) sources is not going to accept help from another (divine) source any more readily. He will probably die in his delusion. The only recourse left for the Church is prayer and penance of her own on that person’s behalf (in a sane form, of course), and disciplinary action (excommunication) if he becomes defiant.
David
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Jana
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Posted: Sun Jun 22nd, 2008 09:05 pm |
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Gee, David!
I don't agree with you. I believe someone who is having "religious" or spiritual problems would welcome help from someone who is a religious professional, but reject the same from someone who is not. If we turn our backs on people like this they surely will die in their delusion! (In which case, excommunication won't be an issue, will it?)
Sorry for my frustration. But your response is very disheartening. My question is about a real person. One I know personally, and care about. One who has a heart of compassion for others. So much so that they (as they've told me) are “serving penance” for them! I believe they must somehow misunderstand what the Catholic Church teaches. At least I hope there is a misunderstanding! Because the pressure is too much for them and they are suicidal.
Jesus did not turn his back on people who were sick and in need of help. He did not throw them into prison and put them at the mercy of people who did not believe that He was the Christ. Jesus had compassion. He showed them their error. He taught truth. He cast out demons.
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...whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy - meditate on these...
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left coast mystic
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Posted: Sun Jun 22nd, 2008 10:45 pm |
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Jana -
It seems to me that the issue is whether or not your friend would be willing to speak with someone who could help. It's most likely that his/her pastor doesn't know what's happening. Perhaps you're the only one who knows. If so, you should plead with your friend to seek input from the priest; tell your friend that you're concerned for his/her well-being and it would greatly relieve you if you knew that your friend was receiving spiritual direction. You might remind your friend that even the saints submitted to spiritual direction, which is reasonable since one key aspect of sainthood is humility, made evident through submission to authority.
I'll pray for you and for your friend, as I'm sure anyone else reading this thread will do.-
Marcee
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Godliness with contentment is great gain. (1 Tim. 6:6)
In returning and rest you shall be saved; in quietness and trust shall be your strength. (Isa. 30:15)
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Jun 22nd, 2008 11:44 pm |
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Gee, David! I don't agree with you.
Certainly it would be ideal if a person such as you describe were open to the Church, even if he had rejected a psychiatric solution. But the sad truth is that people who are doing the type of thing you suggest — physically, psychologically or spiritually harming themselves because of a deviant ideology or a mental or emotional disorder — don’t listen to anyone. They have made up their minds that “this is a private thing between God and me; you wouldn’t understand.” And therein lies the problem. They defiantly refuse all help from anyone.
My question is about a real person.… I believe they must somehow misunderstand what the Catholic Church teaches. At least I hope there is a misunderstanding! Because the pressure is too much for them and they are suicidal.
Yes, I understood this from the beginning. It is a tragic misunderstanding on your friend’s part, no doubt. But what is one to do when such a person won’t listen or at least respond to someone who could help? For this is the likely scenario.
Has your friend had a chance to talk things over with a psychiatrist or counselor? A confessor or other priest? Reasoning is the first step, if the person can be persuaded at least to talk. If nothing is accomplished at this level (and usually this is the case), where would you propose to go next? To the police? What can they do? The use of force to prevent someone from harming himself involves a legal entanglement and serious delays, not to mention incarceration, and in the end it too often proves ineffective and even tragic. We are left with an unreachable person.
I agree that disciplinary action, such as excommunication, probably won’t help either, because if the problem has reached this stage, the person doesn’t care and won’t be deterred by it. Therefore, as I said, prayer is the only hope.
Because of a situation with someone close to me, I have had an opportunity to interact long term with a variety of adults suffering from impaired mental capabilities. These are people with a physical handicap brought on by stroke, trauma, Alzheimer’s disease or other dementia. Especially in the first stages of their malady, they suffer greatly from frustration, depression, feelings of isolation, and wide-ranging delusions. Violence is often their outward reaction. If they survive the early stages, some of them eventually accept their condition and just “go with the flow” in a stream-of-consciousness sort of way. Others never adjust and are embattled to the very end.
But I have also known people such as your friend who have latched onto an impossible idea or who are dominated by an emotional imbalance. Often this begins as a psychological trauma which leads them to overcompensate and seal themselves off. There are ways to help such people if they will allow it. But many of them are not receptive; fear paralyzes them, and they refuse all help. The nation’s psychiatric wards are filled with them, and about all that can be accomplished — like the others who suffer physical handicap — is to keep them alive and reasonably comfortable until they die of natural causes. What they need most is love. You can provide that because you are a friend already. In this way you provide Jesus’ compassion and mercy, even when you are unable to get through with the truth.
So what do I recommend? Give counseling a try. Give friendship a try. If your friend does not respond, then turn to relatives or other responsible parties to look into legal and medical remedies.
This is what I had to do with the person close to me. My action probably saved her life, even though she fought me every step of the way for years. But note this: while I was able to get counseling and aid for myself from several sources, including priests and Church affiliated organizations, in the end it was my personal intervention, taking the case to court and accepting legal responsibility for this person, that allowed me to do anything at all to protect her. Thanks to my action, she is alive today and, although severely affected and gradually getting worse, she is living a life that is reasonably happy. I visit her as often as I can, according to the gospel injunction, and this has made a difference in her ability to remain relatively stable over the past decade.
In summary: You asked about Catholic doctrine and concern for a person’s well-being (a matter of Christian charity). I spoke first about the doctrine, showing that while there has been historical evidence of strange behavior on the part of a few saints, the vast majority have been quite sane and healthy. I then took up the particular question of the advisability of extreme ascetical practices, as versus the normal and moderate striving for holiness. What came to the fore at that point was that extreme behavior is usually at root a psychological or ideological problem rather than a spiritual problem. Finally, I addressed the question of Church intervention. I stressed that the problem is not going to be cured by mere concern and counseling, because the person who gets himself into this kind of situation will not usually respond to this approach. Therefore, it becomes evident that it will be an individual’s heroic effort that is going to save such a person. This means a relative or some other concerned individual like you stepping in and assuming responsibility. This is difficult, frustrating and exhausting. It took me months to get it done, and it cost me financially as well. So the one who does this must be prepared for a rough ride.
Jana, you list yourself as religiously “undecided.” But I see you concerned in a truly Christian manner for your friend. Are you willing, or able, to lay down your life for your friend? As I see it, this is the question before you. The world is a cruel place, and people in general may be sympathetic, but they will offer little to no help. You’ll have to go it alone. Are you up to it? This is something that you will have to answer for yourself.
David
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