 |
| Author | Post |
|---|
mg57
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Connecticut USA |
| Posts: | 234 |
| First Name: | mg57 | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Infant Baptised Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Sep 14th, 2008 10:14 pm |
|
I would like to know if there are any non-funeral Memorial Services conducted within the Baptist / fundamentalist part of Christianity. Specifically, I mean Memorial Services held some time after the funeral itself.
If so, what would be the theology behind the memorial Service ? I know that theoretically they wouldn't be praying for the dead, but can anyone who might have attended or conducted something like this tell us more about it.
|
|
|
beachmoss
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 13th, 2006 |
| Location: | Simpsonville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 296 |
| First Name: | Beth | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic (raised Baptist) |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Sep 15th, 2008 02:20 pm |
|
I attended a memorial service many years ago for a young man. He was active duty Navy and passed away from cancer. At the time he was stationed in Norfolk, VA and passed away in FL. His body was returned home (wherever that was) for the funeral and burial. Several weeks later a memorial service was held on base for his shipmates and friends to attend. His widow also attended.
It was much like a Protestant funeral, yet the body was not there. A eulogy was read, the chaplain read some scripture and said prayers, and we sang a few songs. I know it did not take place in the chapel, and if I remember correctly, it was held in the CPO club. It was a very nice service celebrating this young man's life. I don't remember anything specifically about praying for the dead, but the words and prayers indicated the hope that he was Heaven-bound.
Beth
|
|
|
mg57
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Connecticut USA |
| Posts: | 234 |
| First Name: | mg57 | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Infant Baptised Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Sep 16th, 2008 02:41 am |
|
Hi Beth -
Thank you for that thoughtful post. Do you recall if the service was of any specific denomination, or "non-denominational" ?
If any others have any first-hand experience with this as well, I'd appreciate you sharing it.
|
|
|
beachmoss
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 13th, 2006 |
| Location: | Simpsonville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 296 |
| First Name: | Beth | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Catholic (raised Baptist) |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Sep 16th, 2008 03:19 am |
|
It was "non-denominational." I do the young man was Baptist. I do not know the particular denomination the chaplain was, but in the military the chaplains are there to serve everyone.
My entire family is Southern Baptist, so I have been to many, many SB funerals. If you want to know about these, I can tell you.
Beth
|
|
|
Free
Member
| Joined: | Wed Nov 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 357 |
| First Name: | Jane | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Gnostic, non-denominational, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Sep 16th, 2008 03:41 am |
|
I've attended quite a few Presbyterian USA memorial services, including those of my mother and one of my brothers. The service is considered to be a celebration of the person's life. Scriptures are read, hymns are sung, and sometimes they are the favorite ones of the deceased. I knew my mother loved the hymns "For the Beauty of the Earth" and "Blessed be the Tie that Binds," so we sang those at her service.Then family members or friends share memories about the deceased, or sometimes read a poem. A final hymn is sung, the pastor gives a Benediction, and then the people go to the fellowship hall for either a meal, or desserts that the deacons have laid out. Large displays of photographs are also part of a memorial service, showing the person from babyhood to near the time of his or her death. Either before the meal, or at the time of the meal, people have a chance to look at the photos and other mementoes that the family may have on display.
At my brother's service, when I spoke, and also when his daughter spoke, we told how my brother had come back to a belief in Jesus Christ when he was on his death bed, but in most Presbyterian services, the person's faith is not discussed at the memorial service. Most of the deceased at the memorial services I've attended have been cremated, and their cremains are not yet back from the crematoriam, so a interrment service takes place at a later date. The Presbyterian church of my parents has a walled garden with an area set aside for cremains to be buried, and there is a plaque on the garden wall above it with the names of the deceased cast on bronze strips. A book is also kept in the church of all the names of former members who are deceased. Praying for the dead is not done.
I also attended one non-denominational memorial service for a man who had committed suicide. The people from the non-denominational church were so intent on making it a celebration that it was disturbing to those of us who worried about the state of the man's soul. They were all delighted and insistent that the man had "graduated to heaven."
|
|
|
BeProf
Member
| Joined: | Thu Jan 3rd, 2008 |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | 90 |
| First Name: | Ed | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Independent Fundamental Baptist - Atheism - Christian & Missionary Alliance |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Sep 16th, 2008 03:19 pm |
|
I've never been to a "bodiless" memorial service, but I know they do happen.
The classic example, I think, is a retired Pastor. In my denomination a not uncommon career path for a Pastor would work like this He spends a couple of years as a Missionary, then as an Associate Pastor at one or more churches, and then a couple of decades as the Senior Pastor of a church. Then, maybe he gets promoted to District Executive or he goes back to school to get his PhD and becomes a seminary Professor. He may even, "retire" from the Pastorate and spend his remaining years as an Evangelist, traveling from church to church preaching at revival meetings (I think you'd call them Parish Missions). Eventually his health fails and he spends his remaining years in Florida or Arizona or somewhere else warm as a "regular" (but still ordained) member of yet another local church.
So... when his papers come through and he's finally "promoted to glory," where do they bury him? Wherever he wants to be buried. I dare say that most of them would want to be buried where they died (more or less) and the funeral, therefore, will happen at whatever church they belonged to when they died.
That having been said, the church he was Senior Pastor at for so many years will probably have a memorial service for him. The Seminary he taught at may have a memorial service for him. The church(es) he planted at home and abroad field may have memorial services for him.
Why? For him? No. He has his reward. Those services are for us who are left behind. We want to thank God for this life. We want to remember him. We want to celebrate the many great and wonderful things that God did in and through this man's life.
|
|
|
mg57
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Connecticut USA |
| Posts: | 234 |
| First Name: | mg57 | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Infant Baptised Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Sep 19th, 2008 04:16 am |
|
Thank you Beth, Jane and Ed for your thoughtful and helpful replies. 
Ed, you gave a good example of what Catholics might term a memorial for a "saintlly" person. I guess I was also looking for an example from a memorial service for those whose life choices and example would be generally considered as not pristine.
Thanks again.
|
|
|
CajunRick
Guest
| Joined: | |
| Location: | |
| Posts: | |
| First Name: | | | Gender: | | | Faith History: | |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Fri Sep 19th, 2008 12:48 pm |
|
mg57 wrote: I guess I was also looking for an example from a memorial service for those whose life choices and example would be generally considered as not pristine.
If you're referring to a Catholic memorial, practically every mass is offered in memory of a deceased person. So in effect, practically every mass is a memorial.
There are specific requiem masses that can be offered on the anniversary of death or at any time during the year.
Masses can be offered for other intentions, and each priest is required to offer mass periodically for the souls in purgatory and for parishioners of his parish. Other intentions can be in thanksgiving, for a good harvest, for protection against bad weather, etc. In addition, mass may be offered for the same intentions on a personal basis.
|
|
|
mg57
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Connecticut USA |
| Posts: | 234 |
| First Name: | mg57 | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Infant Baptised Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 03:41 am |
|
Hi Rick -
No, I am interested in the Baptist / Fundamentalist segment of Christianity on this particular question, and what experiences on a practical level former members have had with this.
Thanks anyway.
|
|
|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 1400 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Sep 20th, 2008 07:09 am |
|
I've been to (and as a volunteer) did some background assistance work at a couple of non-casket memorial service. They were for prominent members of the church and there were a lot of people. And of course, there were lots of personal witnesses, testimonials, jokes and funny stories in addition to the more somber reflections and of course hymns.
It was jarring, of course, to see no casket, urn, etc. There were very nice displays about the deceased set up in the foyer. The bodies were given to a local medical school for scientific use, and later returned for final burial.
If memory serves me correctly, there was some "worship and praise" music sung at one of the services. I almost stormed out of the building then. That was too, too much. Luckily for them I hadn't reverted by then.
In my faith testimony, I neglected to mention the impact of witnessing what I thought were basically "nice" but lacking memorial services, and how my attitudes towards returning to my "native Faith" were beginning to be rekindled as a result of these services. Of course, I knew what was missing, but I was careful not to say anything then. As time passed, however, my inhitibions started dropping. There's something about a Catholic requiem, especially when it returns in Latin that all the Protestant funerals cannot muster. Only what the Orthodox, or the Episcopalians have in their Book of Common Prayer comes close.
Of all the times a person deserves a proper ritual of rememberance, it's when he or she dies. Whether we're a Pope, President or Pauper.
____________________
James Michael Curley to a young Thomas “Tip” O’Neill -- “Son, it’s nice to be important, but it’s more important to be nice.”
|
|
|
mg57
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Connecticut USA |
| Posts: | 234 |
| First Name: | mg57 | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Infant Baptised Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Sep 21st, 2008 02:00 am |
|
Thank you for that Steven.
|
|
|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 1400 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Sep 22nd, 2008 05:22 am |
|
MG,
Glad to be of help. Have to admit, I had a case of "culture shock." One thing I keep in my wallet next to my license is a card, just a 2 x 3 foldover card with a handwritten note saying I'm a Catholic, if anything happens and I need a priest, call for one. And even before I vacated my volunteer "job" at the church my family's still technically members of, I wanted to make darn sure my boss and closest friends there knew well enough to call the Newman Center, or St. Brigid's should, God forbid, I had something like what old Fred Sanford used to say on "Sanford and Son," ... "THE BIG ONE"
As my (inner Catholic) became more, should I say, a bit edgier and more "militant" I figured I'd be damned if I was going to allow those Protestants, no matter how well-intentioned they might be, to just pack me up in an ambulance, (aka "meatwagon") with a prayer if I was still alive, or just sobs and instructions to haul my remains down the street to a funeral home. Without Last Rites!
No way was I ever, nor should any Catholic, ever allow that to happen. And if we're not careful, it could. That's an indignity NONE of us should ever endure, no matter how well we'd qualify for a role in a remake of "Angels with dirty faces."
____________________
James Michael Curley to a young Thomas “Tip” O’Neill -- “Son, it’s nice to be important, but it’s more important to be nice.”
|
|
|
Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 2169 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Sep 22nd, 2008 07:18 pm |
|
I have no personal stories to tell, but on a theological note, there is a sense in which Protestants can pray for the dead, according to their own theology, and without presupposing purgatory. Martin Luther wrote:
As for the dead, since Scripture gives us no information on the subject, I regard it as no sin to pray with free devotion in this or some similar fashion: 'Dear God, if this soul is in a condition accessible to mercy, be thou gracious to it.' And when this has been done once or twice, let it suffice. For vigils and requiem masses and yearly celebrations of requiems are useless, and merely the devil's annual fair.
(Luther's Works, vol. 37, p. 369)
Luther's approval of prayers for the dead given out of free devotion was shared in his successor Philip Melanchthon's Apology to the Augsburg Confession (article XXIV, 94), where he wrote:
Now, as regards the adversaries' citing the Fathers concerning the offering for the dead, we know that the ancients speak of prayer for the dead, which we do not prohibit; but we disapprove of the application ex opere operato of the Lord's Supper on behalf of the dead.
I noted a Lutheran professor's argument for this, which entails the understanding that, since God is outside of time, He can apply prayers after the event (in our time) to a person. Thus, on that basis, a Protestant can pray for the salvation of a dead person, based on perfectly consistent and internally orthodox Protestant theology.
This is not the Baptist tradition, of course, but a strong historical case can be made that Baptists derive historically from the theology of Martin Luther, as (I would contend) all Protestants do. A Baptist wouldn't deny that God is outside of time, so this practice would be consistent with their theology as well. I suspect, however, that they simply wouldn't think about such a thing very much. I know I didn't when I was a Protestant, with a theology as close to Baptist beliefs as anything else.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
|
|
|
mg57
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Connecticut USA |
| Posts: | 234 |
| First Name: | mg57 | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Infant Baptised Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Sep 22nd, 2008 08:25 pm |
|
Steven, Dave -
Hey, thanks for help filling in the blanks.
Yeah Steven, being a "cradle" I can't imagine everything that goes on inside oneself during the "re-orientation" process. Thanks for your post.
Dave, thanks for a little theological backround on that. My mom just passed away this past Wednesday and her / our friends in our area from an Amish / Mennonite related denomination came by, and on a "heart" level I know she's in their prayers.
Although they might not be able to enunciate the point about God being outside of time etc,.. they understand it nevertheless from their side of things.
It's unfortunate that it isn't understood that the Mass is outside of time, and that repitition is not the primary operative factor in having Masses celebrated for our departed.
|
|
|
Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 2169 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Evangelical (1977): Diverse Protestant Influences / Catholic in 1990 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Sep 22nd, 2008 09:09 pm |
|
| I'm very sorry to hear about your mother, and offer my deepest condolences. May she rest in peace and may the God of all comfort be with you and yours at this difficult time.
____________________
I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
|
|
|
Steven Barrett
Member
| Joined: | Tue Nov 14th, 2006 |
| Location: | Hadley, Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 1400 |
| First Name: | Steven | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, Episcopal communicant, Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Sep 23rd, 2008 04:21 am |
|
MG, you have my deepest condolences and prayers for your mother. Having gone through the passings of both of my parents some twenty years ago, I remember how rough it seemed, (only four years apart and my wife and I had three of our kids then and they were little and wondering of course what happened to their nana and gramp.)
BUT --- take my word for it, the pain lessens and God gives us the strength to move forward. (Believe me, you won't want to face them at the Pearlies asking you why you didn't persevere! They'll want you to!)
Glad I could be of some help along with Dave concerning how some Protestants (particularly some Evangelicals) mourn their loved ones. Just like there are many variations of Protestant belief, there are likewise many different ways they mourn their dead. And believe me, there are times when their "cheering us up shows us up" when it comes to having an optimistic spirit about the Final Destination. When my mother died, it was my mother in-law who somehow (and I can't recall the exact words) knew just what to say regarding my mom's place in Heaven. Sometimes we Catholics get too hung up on theology, ritual, etc. and forget the human and yes, sentimental part of mourning. My mother in-law is a Congregationalist, and though not the most church-attending person, she's always been a lovely woman and her heart's in the right place.
But try and explain to some Protestant skeptics about our expensive Mass cards, esp. the part about X number of masses offered for the deceased (depending on the price of the Mass Card, and some of them are pieces of art you'll hate to discard even after years have passed. Aaarrgghhhh!)
"Still buying their souls outta purgatory, eh?"
In that case, all we have to do is say "Well, we'll just save on the cards and offer up a few prayers...I'll pray, but believe me I won't pay. It'll take you a little longer, but I'll see to it that you're thought about."  Geeeesssshhh!
____________________
James Michael Curley to a young Thomas “Tip” O’Neill -- “Son, it’s nice to be important, but it’s more important to be nice.”
|
|
|
mg57
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Connecticut USA |
| Posts: | 234 |
| First Name: | mg57 | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Infant Baptised Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Sep 23rd, 2008 03:57 pm |
|
Thank you both for your prayers and condolences. It was sudden even though she was in her late 80's. A close friend of hers told us at the wake that my mom had confided to her years ago that she would prefer if possible to do all her purgatory here. She had a very rough week in the hospital I.C.U before she passed, so she might have received what she'd hoped for.
Another aside seeing how God works, her funeral took place on my late father's birthday, 10m a.m. on Sept. 22. We had previously scheduled a 7:30 a.m. Mass for my father for that day, so my pastor added mom with him, ... it was great ! So the day of her funeral we got to go to Mass / Communion twice !
Last but not least, they both loved Padre Pio whose memorial is celebrated today, Sept 23.
Needless to say, God is good.
|
|
|
mg57
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Connecticut USA |
| Posts: | 234 |
| First Name: | mg57 | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Infant Baptised Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Sep 23rd, 2008 04:00 pm |
|
P.S. She passed away just as we finished praying the Divine Mercy Chaplet at 3 p.m. at her bedside in the I.C.U. ....
|
|
|
Current time is 03:27 pm | |
|
|
|
|
|
