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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Fri Oct 13th, 2006 05:51 am |
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is anyone familiar with the common practice of burying statues of Jospeh upside down in order to sell your house quickly? Do you believe in things like this. I am getting used to the idea of holy objects and sacramentals and matter being used to bless, but some things like this seem to take it too far. It seems a lot of things i stumble upon in catholicism are like weird promises or guarantees. like say this prayer so many times and you will definitely get A B and C. It seems like formulas and superstitions or making God subject to what we think works instead of saying 'thy will be done'
I know prayers grant great graces, but sometimes i think that certain literature promises things it shouldn't. any help or ideas?
Brian
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri Oct 13th, 2006 10:41 am |
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brian wrote: is anyone familiar with the common practice of burying statues of Jospeh upside down in order to sell your house quickly? Do you believe in things like this.
Honestly I do not believe it and I would never do it, but I do know people who have tried for an extended period to sell a house, and when they buried a statue of St. Joseph the house sold within days. Maybe they just portray a more confident attitude when they show the house. I don't know the reason, but I certainly don't think it's miraculous.
I am getting used to the idea of holy objects and sacramentals and matter being used to bless, but some things like this seem to take it too far. It seems a lot of things i stumble upon in catholicism are like weird promises or guarantees. like say this prayer so many times and you will definitely get A B and C. It seems like formulas and superstitions or making God subject to what we think works instead of saying 'thy will be done'
I agree. We have a shrine to St. Jude in our parish, and constantly throw away reams of paper promising to grant favors if you leave 81 copies in church. Maybe there was some benefit of that 100 years ago when copies were made by hand, but no one will ever convince me God will grant a miracle because someone knows how to use a copier.
I know prayers grant great graces, but sometimes i think that certain literature promises things it shouldn't. any help or ideas?
People who never go to church will travel 200 miles to see an image of the Virgin Mary in wall mold! Some people are gullible. There are abuses in any activity, and religion (including the Catholic Church) are not immune.
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
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Posted: Fri Oct 13th, 2006 10:47 am |
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Yes, Brian, I agree that this practice and some of the others you mention border on the superstitious. They are folkloric things, not true Catholicism.
People often have the erroneous idea that they can influence God’s will through prayer and such actions as you describe. Actually, God’s will is eternal and unchangeable, and it is we who must learn and conform. God has willed that we pray for what we need, because it is on this condition that our needs will be granted. Prayer is therefore not a contest of wills but a discovery of God’s will and a surrender of our wills to God.
David
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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Fri Oct 13th, 2006 04:36 pm |
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I hear you say this often, and i try to take it as my own thought seeing as how theologically sound it is. I often think the reason i see answered prayer is becasue God somehow invited me into what He was intending for all along. Like He put the desires on my heart. But i do think that prayer seems to from our point of view have power. I think that we may never fully understand it. Like the instances where God appears to change His mind in the old testament. I mean of course he foreknew this, but He allows us to see Him portrayed this way. And Jesus often says that we will get what we ask for in prayer (in line with His will of course) and the gospel yesteday was of the persistent man asking for bread in the middle of the night. Jesus seems to be saying we need to persistently ask for things in prayer and we will eventually get them.
Anyway, I agree with you, prayer is all about us conforming to God. And I agree He has seen to prayer being a means of us asking Him for favors as well. But I do think there is at least a hint that from our perspective that our prayers are somehow influencing Him, even if they really are not. All we know sometimes is that we pray, and we see God answer, even if we do not understand the answer. So whatever is happening I feel compelled to pray all the more knowing that something good is happening and that perhaps this is my means of dying to self and putting on the new self, and along the way possibly gaining some favors for others whether or not my prayers really influence God's will or seem to or really are just a sign of what God's will really is.
What i also like about your approach is the humility involved and the fact that it is about God's will and power and not our own. So, anyway, I am not saying i disagree with anything, just that it seems mysterous to me just how the bible portrays it and exactly how prayer and influence seem to work. There must be some reason those passages of God changing His mind exist. They are not accidents and there is some truth revealed in them. Anyway, I do not know what i am saying, i guess i am just thinking this through out loud, in the meantime i will keep praying and trust Him to know the details and know it is His grace and mercy that give me any hope in prayer at all.
Brian
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Oct 13th, 2006 09:53 pm |
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Your thinking is right on target, Brian. I agree that from the human point of view God’s acts appear to be exactly as portrayed in the passages of the bible you refer to. This is why those passages are in the bible. But there are other passages, especially in St. Paul, which intimate that from God’s point of view things are quite different. Our dogma states that God’s will is in fact eternal and unchangeable. We take it on faith that the two points of view are reconcilable, even if we do not know how this can be. It is, then, something like the hypostatic union: it is a mystery, and we will in heaven come to see that it is so, but we will still not know how or why. The best thing we can do for now is to follow St. Pio’s advice: Pray, hope and don’t worry.
David
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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Sat Oct 14th, 2006 05:09 am |
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Brian's message was very profound about our relationship with God, but it was not about the subject of this thread, burying statues of St. Joseph. I have moved it to the Union with God forum to foster a more appropriate discussion.
To all users, please try to keep messages on the topic of the original discussion. Changing topics in mid-stream makes it very difficult for future visitors to the forum to find answers to their own questions. Please be especially careful about asking follow-up questions on a different issue in an existing thread, as that is very difficult to fix. If in doubt, post your question as a new thread in the Fellowship area and we'll move it to the appropriate area.
Last edited on Sat Oct 14th, 2006 12:11 pm by
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Steven Barrett
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Posted: Wed Nov 15th, 2006 10:54 am |
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 I suspect this all one of Screwtape's tricks from his very sub-department of disinformation. Trouble is, enough non-Catholics will believe we actually do this sort of foolish nonsense. Well, we've got a few of Tetzel's indulgences he didn't get to sell after Luther posted his screed on the church door. Maybe they'll buy those along with a few bridges and some statues of St. Joseph to place upside down to placate an downside real estate market.
____________________
James Michael Curley to a young Thomas “Tip” O’Neill -- “Son, it’s nice to be important, but it’s more important to be nice.”
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Gnyssa
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| Joined: | Sat Nov 18th, 2006 |
| Location: | California USA |
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| First Name: | Gnyssa | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Episcopalian, Roman Catholic since 2003, RC priest 2006 |
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Posted: Sun Nov 19th, 2006 07:30 pm |
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I have not only heard of this, I have seen special statues of St Joseph specificly marketed for house sellers, to buy and bury. Personally I find this disrespectful and would never do it.
Here in the southwest of the United States we get a lot of this sort of thing, bits of Catholicism mixed with superstition or other cults. I have seen in Texas a store which sold candles for St Martin, who is very popular in the Hispanic community, being sold along side candles which promise to bring health and wealth, and still other which claim to keep the police away! One Anglican priest told me once of visiting a lady who showed him her "first communion" = the actual wafer - pasted into her personal scrap book. Wherever the Church is, there will always be fringe of eccentricity on the frontiers of faith - May God bless them and bring them to the fullness of His Truth.
Gnyssa
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