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andersent
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| First Name: | Todd | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Formerly united methodist, now Catholic |
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Posted: Sat May 5th, 2007 04:33 pm |
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What do we think about the fossil record showing human like creatures? I don't think this challenges the bible necessarily, but i think it does need some explanation theologically--i..e what was the point of human like creatures existing for possibly as long as 100,000-300,000 years?
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat May 5th, 2007 06:13 pm |
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andersent wrote: What do we think about the fossil record showing human like creatures? I don't think this challenges the bible necessarily, but i think it does need some explanation theologically--i..e what was the point of human like creatures existing for possibly as long as 100,000-300,000 years?
It is my personal belief that humanity evolved from lower life forms. Man did not evolve from apes, but man and apes evolved from a common ancestor.
I believe that when Genesis tells us that man was created in the image and likeness of God, the reference is to the creation of an immortal soul; a rational, spiritual essence that is not present in other life forms. This infusion of a soul (in my opinion) is what set us apart as "human" and is described in scripture as Adam and Eve. This hypothesis of mine (and I freely admit I have not heard or read it elsewhere; it is totally mine) is not the teaching of the Church, but it is within the teaching of the Church and is not contrary to it:
364 The human body shares in the dignity of "the image of God": it is a human body precisely because it is animated by a spiritual soul, and it is the whole human person that is intended to become, in the body of Christ, a temple of the Spirit:
Man, though made of body and soul, is a unity. Through his very bodily condition he sums up in himself the elements of the material world. Through him they are thus brought to their highest perfection and can raise their voice in praise freely given to the Creator. For this reason man may not despise his bodily life. Rather he is obliged to regard his body as good and to hold it in honor since God has created it and will raise it up on the last day.
So the Catechism allows for the possibility of identical creatures, ancestral to both ape and man, one of which is human because of the presence of a spiritual soul, and the other is animal because it does not possess a human soul. It also allows for the existance of other proto-human life forms that did not survive. Homo Sapiens survived and became the dominant life form on earth because of the existance of a spiritual soul.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Ali
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| First Name: | Ali | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | JW, finally fully Catholic |
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 10:08 am |
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cajunrick wrote: Homo Sapiens survived and became the dominant life form on earth because of the existance of a spiritual soul.
But what makes Homo Sapiens so special as to receive a spiritual soul? Was that God's choice/design, or evolution's luck of the draw? In your opinion, of course, I understand you are not speaking for the Church on this.
Ali
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 10:26 am |
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Ali wrote: cajunrick wrote: Homo Sapiens survived and became the dominant life form on earth because of the existance of a spiritual soul.
But what makes Homo Sapiens so special as to receive a spiritual soul? Was that God's choice/design, or evolution's luck of the draw?
God's choice, design, and blessing. I believe all life has a "lifeforce" or soul, but man's is unique in that its soul gives humanity a rational basis "in the image of God". Further, God not only chose humanity in general but also our first parents in particular. I do believe in evolution, but I believe it was (and is) lovingly guided by God each and every step of the way.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Br_Carlo
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| First Name: | Br_Carlo (Vince Brach) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Episcopalian, CATHOLIC |
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 09:10 pm |
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| God's peace. I am a Ph.D. Biologist and Catholic, and I think the Cajun has got it pretty close to right. But somehow, we must make allowance for the teaching that all human beings descend from a single human pair--however that works out in the fossil record. Blessings, ~Br_Carlo~
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BodRod
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 09:54 pm |
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So, since God created us in His own image, does that mean God looks like an amoeba or a paramecium? 
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon May 7th, 2007 10:07 pm |
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Br_Carlo wrote: But somehow, we must make allowance for the teaching that all human beings descend from a single human pair--however that works out in the fossil record.
Although it is not particularly relevant to me, I accept that God chose a single human pair from among the hominids and infused immortal human souls into them, thus "creating" them as spiritual beings "in the image of God".
I also believe that initially, there was no visible or genetic difference between the selected pair and others of their breed (as their was no visible or genetic difference between Mary and other women of her generation) and so mating was possible between the children of Adam and Eve and others of their race, with the offspring possessing souls also "in the image of God". The soul caused the offspring of the selected pair to evolve quickly, while the other hominids quickly died away.
I am not a biologist or geneticist, but I have struggled with this question from a faith perspective, and this is how I have resolved it in my own mind. I stress again that this is NOT a teaching of the Catholic Church but my own hypothesis; however, to the best of my knowledge, it does not conflict in any way with either the scientific record or the teachings of the Church. In reading this, you are completely free to accept it, reject it, or consider it the rantings of a lunatic. But it works for me.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Ali
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| Joined: | Sat Jan 6th, 2007 |
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Posted: Tue May 8th, 2007 09:41 am |
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cajunrick wrote: consider it the rantings of a lunatic
Hmmmm, tempting 
Ali
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BodRod
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Posted: Tue May 8th, 2007 09:58 pm |
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cajunrick wrote: consider it the rantings of a lunatic
"lunatic" ....... hhhmmmmm. Lets see. "Luna" ... oh yes, that has to do with the moon. Now, ..... "tic" That is a bug that get in your skin. Hmmmmm .... I don't get it. I was not aware that bugs could talk much less rant!!! Maybe they only talk or rant when the moon is out. What do you think?
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue May 8th, 2007 11:18 pm |
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BodRod wrote:cajunrick wrote: consider it the rantings of a lunatic "lunatic" ....... hhhmmmmm. Lets see. "Luna" ... oh yes, that has to do with the moon. Now, ..... "tic" That is a bug that get in your skin. Hmmmmm .... I don't get it. I was not aware that bugs could talk much less rant!!! Maybe they only talk or rant when the moon is out. What do you think?
Actually, the bug is a "tick". A "tic" is "a sudden, repetitive, stereotyped, nonrhythmic, involuntary movement (motor tic) or sound (phonic tic) that involves discrete groups of muscles." So a sort of a muscle jerk, or perhaps an involuntary verbal rant.
So you could interpret that as meaning I am an involuntary jerk who rants whenever the moon is full, or something like that.
At least Ali had the decency to pass on the opportunity...
(Why is it I can suddenly hear Rodney Dangerfield speaking in my ear...)
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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BodRod
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Posted: Tue May 8th, 2007 11:27 pm |
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<<<Rodney Dangerfield>>> ?????????????
You remember him, Rick? Well ...... I guess I should not make any cracks about age since I turn 39 again Thursday!
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue May 8th, 2007 11:35 pm |
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BodRod wrote: <<<Rodney Dangerfield>>> ?????????????
You remember him, Rick?
Yes. I am younger than you, but not so much younger that I do not remember such things as Elvis on the Ed Sullivan show. I was born in the middle of President Truman's elected administration.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Candlemass
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Posted: Wed May 9th, 2007 12:47 am |
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cajunrick wrote: Ali wrote: cajunrick wrote: Homo Sapiens survived and became the dominant life form on earth because of the existance of a spiritual soul.
But what makes Homo Sapiens so special as to receive a spiritual soul? Was that God's choice/design, or evolution's luck of the draw?
God's choice, design, and blessing. I believe all life has a "lifeforce" or soul, but man's is unique in that its soul gives humanity a rational basis "in the image of God". Further, God not only chose humanity in general but also our first parents in particular. I do believe in evolution, but I believe it was (and is) lovingly guided by God each and every step of the way.
"Theistic Evolution", is this the official teaching of the Catholic Church? I don't buy it, and there are, to the contrary, credible scientists who hold to ex-nhilo, and traditional creation, or ID.
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"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed May 9th, 2007 01:19 am |
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Candlemass wrote: "Theistic Evolution", is this the official teaching of the Catholic Church?
No. As I said very plainly, this is my opinion. Church teaching is that God created the heavens and the earth, and we are all descended from a single pair (man and woman) whom scripture calls "Adam and Eve". The Church permits you to believe fully in the literal truth of Genesis, or in evolution in any form consistent with the fossil record, as long as you accept fully that God is the Creator of everything that exists, and that nothing exists without God's creative power.
This is one of the many areas on which the Church has made no specific doctrinal pronouncements. It accepts both scripture and the scientific record as revelations of God. We may resolve them in our own minds as we wish.
The original question regarded how we can resolve the creation story in Genesis with the fossil record, and I gave one possible theory as to how we can do that.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed May 9th, 2007 01:23 am |
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The Church has no official teaching related to evolution, Mark. It has stated the necessary conditions for acceptance of any evolutionary theory (and there are several different theories that go by this title), should it be proved by science that this is in fact what happened. So far science has not been able to do this, and I personally do not think such things are provable, due to the nature of the scientific evidence. Anyway, there are alternative theories (as you enumerate), and the Church could accept any of them, again under certain conditions.
David
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Candlemass
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Posted: Wed May 9th, 2007 01:33 am |
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David W. Emery wrote: The Church has no official teaching related to evolution, Mark. It has stated the necessary conditions for acceptance of any evolutionary theory (and there are several different theories that go by this title), should it be proved by science that this is in fact what happened. So far science has not been able to do this, and I personally do not think such things are provable, due to the nature of the scientific evidence. Anyway, there are alternative theories (as you enumerate), and the Church could accept any of them, again under certain conditions.
David
Science is always in a contant state of flux, I don't fully trust in it, I don't think we need to make scripture bow the knee to supposed scientific evidence. I'm cool with those who believe in theistic evolution, but there are those who seem to want to force us to accept it, and I suppose the other way around. I have deeper issues to deal with anyway!
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"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed May 9th, 2007 01:43 am |
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I have deeper issues to deal with.
Right. The bottom line is that, with only a few basic caveats, you can believe what you think is right in this area, without reference to what others think.
David
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Vanessa
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Posted: Fri May 11th, 2007 02:58 am |
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I wanted to thank Rick, quite a way above, for the theory of how we may have been selected for a soul, I had not looked at things in that way before.
I think my own reasoning was that we acquired a soul at the point in our evolution that we were able to understand the consequence of our actions, but I do appreciate that that was not an overnight thing, and so maybe there is too much of a grey area between. I do find the concept of mitochondrial Eve hard to understand in any event.
I think you would have to go a long way in the UK to find someone who didn't believe in evolution. It is something that I have studied in depth, and the more I learn, the more God's creation fills me with awe. To say that God created everything in six days doesn't even begin to describe the majesty and the abundance that we see, or existed in the past.
I am passionate about science, and I respect the Church, which has many scientists, as I understand, in the Vatican. The Church is not afraid of science, we are not fundamentalists who have to bend the laws of nature to fit our narrow views. All of the earth and nature is out there for our admiration of God's work. Think about one single cell in our body, you could spend a lifetime studying it and never know it all, that is the work of God.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Fri May 11th, 2007 06:09 am |
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Vanessa wrote: I wanted to thank Rick, quite a way above, for the theory of how we may have been selected for a soul, I had not looked at things in that way before.
Just please remember that this is my own theory, and I am not a scientist by any stretch of the imagination. In fact, botany is what did me in in college. 50 microscopes, 50 slides, and I had absolutely no idea what was in any of them. And I still don't know why I needed to know that to teach math, speech and journalism.
Still, this is something I have wondered about and prayed about, and my theory makes sense to me. I do believe in the "six days" as a symbolic representation of the stages of creation, but I also don't believe God reckons time as we do. I did always think it was a little ludicrous that God needed to rest on the seventh day, but it makes more sense as David explains it that the seventh day represents completion, and "rest" is a relative term. After all, if God ever truly "rested" from creating each moment, creation would cease to exist. Every moment is a brand new creation.
Anyway, it answered my questions as to how races evolved but we still descended from a single pair, "Adam and Eve", as our Church teaches us. It also explains what happened to all the other branches of hominids that disappeared shortly after homo sapiens became prominent. It just resolves a lot of questions in my mind.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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