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Creation of evil?
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Credo Catholic
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 Posted: Tue Mar 25th, 2008 06:27 pm

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I have had this question in my mind for a long time:

In the beginning there was only God.  God is love and truth, the source of all goodness.  He created everything.  As I understand it, the angels were created before man.  At what point was evil introduced?  I read somewhere in the last few days, that when man (Adam) was created, Satan rebelled because man had been given free will.  Is that correct?  Where did the ability to rebel come from?  What I guess I mean is, did God give the angels the ability to rebel, and does that mean that God created evil, because how did it exist without His creating it?  I feel heretical even asking this question!  But I can't figure it out.


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Annie
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 Posted: Tue Mar 25th, 2008 06:39 pm

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Satan rebelled by saying "non serviam," I will not serve. He had the free will to do so. God didn't create evil but in giving us and the angels free will he did create a potential for evil. It is up to us to avoid evil. For example by NOT saying "non serviam."

And here I am "serving"::wantpie:



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Credo Catholic
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 Posted: Tue Mar 25th, 2008 06:53 pm

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Annie wrote:  God didn't create evil but in giving us and the angels free will he did create a potential for evil.

I think the heart of my question must be ... didn't God have to create the potential for evil, the possibility for it?  How did Satan even have that option?

Another way to pose the question:  How could anything evil have been offered to Satan by God, who is goodness Himself?

Last edited on Tue Mar 25th, 2008 06:55 pm by Credo Catholic


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David W. Emery
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 Posted: Tue Mar 25th, 2008 07:37 pm

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I think, Marsha, that God was willing to risk the possibility of an evil choice because it was the only way a created being would have the freedom to choose good, as opposed to his accepting it necessarily. God has given the angels and man a greater good by giving us free will. So the answer to your question is that God offered Satan a greater good, not an evil. Satan himself chose to turn that good into sin by abusing the privilege.

David


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Dave Armstrong
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 Posted: Tue Mar 25th, 2008 08:49 pm

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I fully concur with the answers given so far (excellent question, btw!). Here is what I wrote in a long online paper that is chapter 3 of my book, Christian Worldview vs. Postmodernism:

[the initial "dilemma"]

1. Evil in the world casts doubt upon either God’s goodness or His omnipotence.

2. Evil results from man’s free choices and free will, thus – for the moment – separating the origin of evil from God.

3. But why would God create a man who would even have that potentiality in the first place? Does that not still place responsibility for evil on God, and cast doubt on His goodness (perhaps even His omniscience – knowing what would happen), as He could have created otherwise, being omnipotent?

[ . . .]

Human beings are finite creatures, much more limited in knowledge than the angels, and unimaginably less knowledgeable than God. So their free will cannot possibly act in the same fashion (i.e., knowing all contingencies and consequences) as God’s free will. Human beings are not the very ground or essence of love, or Good, as God is. Therefore, the possibility always exists for them – being free – to sin and choose the Wrong and the unloving course of action.

To serve and be unified with God is a free act of the will. A will which is free can also choose to not serve and love God. And that very act is the very definition of evil or sin: separation from God and His will, in which reside the essence of love and Good. This was Leibniz’s argument: that creatures are finite, so that their free will is far more likely to produce sin.

The inherent limitation in the human psyche, intellect, and will brought about rebellion. Human beings are far less intelligent than the angels. The majority of angels were sharp enough to realize that it was of no benefit, and great harm, to rebel against God their Creator. They immediately realized the sheer futility and foolishness of such a drastic move.

Other angels, somehow having obtained pridefulness and self-centeredness and a sort of jealousy or envy of God, did conceive in their wills the idiotic notion that they would be better off opposing God, than being on His side. That was made possible by their free will. God gave them free will, which was such that it included the potentiality for self-centeredness, self-autonomy (with no “need” for God as the Sovereign) and hence, rebellion.

In other words, there must be some logical impossibility for even God to create free creatures who can never and will never sin, without some additional “help” from God (supernatural grace). Human beings before the Fall could have chosen to not sin. But they chose to rebel and reject God’s authority. Atheists naturally deny the profundity and great depth of the hold which sin has on human beings. I don’t know how or why that is.

Human history indisputably reveals that man has been abundantly evil and wicked. Who could fail to see that? But the secular mentality simply locates the causation for that in the environment or God, rather than the individual person – or some constitutional shortcoming in human beings.

To summarize, then, the finite nature of creatures (both before and especially after, the Fall) is such that they are unable or exceedingly unlikely to make perfect choices and to never sin. The problem resides in the creature, as a result of his inherent limitations of intelligence and various weaknesses that a Being perfect in essence does not possess. God can’t make another God. He is by nature one: uncreated and self-existent and perfect; therefore He can’t create another like Himself; ergo: creatures will be intrinsically – logically -- limited in some sense.

And this means that (quite conceivably) it is logically impossible for God to create (in any possible world) creatures with free will who will definitely never sin, as a free choice, or literally not be able to sin and still somehow be “free.”
For those who are interested I have many papers on The Problem of Evil (including several debates with atheists) on my Philosophy, Science, & Christianity web page. I consider it the most serious and respectable objection to the Christian faith. But I think we can offer an adequate rebuttal to it.

 



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 Posted: Tue Mar 25th, 2008 11:02 pm

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Thank you all for excellent and thought-provoking answers.  I know God created nature and with it the tornadoes and tsunami's that kill hundreds of thousands, but those are not evil. They are tragic but not the result of man's free will or evil intentions.  So God has certainly created the forces of nature that are terrible, He can also create the seeds of evil which are the alternative to choosing the will of God.  My brain is fatigued!  Thanks again and God bless


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Dave Armstrong
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 Posted: Wed Mar 26th, 2008 08:00 pm

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I think the simplest way we mere mortals can understand these deep things is the following chart:

1) With free will and free choice comes the necessary potentiality for evil choice.

2) The only way to absolutely avoid the evil choice altogether (even for an omnipotent being) is to eliminate all choice, and create mere robots or automatons.

3) #2 doesn't allow a free, loving relationship. It eliminates meaning and purpose and creatures made in the image of God. It reduces human beings to animals.

4) Therefore, because of #3, God chose the option of #1, because love with the presence of evil also is better than a state of affairs with no evil but also no love and meaning among creatures.



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Jackie
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 Posted: Wed Mar 26th, 2008 08:46 pm

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Hmm, this goes back to a debate my brother and I have been having since he moved in with me about two years ago.

He questions God as we know Him. That is, as Catholics (Christians) Over the last few years he has asked questions like: Who is God really? Anceint religions go farther back than 2000 years?! And in order for God to know Himself, He had to create us?!  And if God is good, than why all the suffering in the world?! Why not just fix it. The injustices and atrocities. He asks the question, Is God then impotent?! Finally who says things are evil? How do we really know things were evil (or good)?!

As an aside, my brother has deep thought provolking questions and some of our table discussions have brought both side to investigate things like science and reason. Faith and the Bible. I have come to understand he is seeking, as well as expanding his mind.  One night last year during a heated debate, in his frustration he condemed Jesus and the Bible. That was heart wrenching for me to hear. The next day I told him he was not allowed to speak about God like that in my home again. I told him that I understand he is questioning because he is seeking. To understand so he can believe.

But I think I have that wrong. How can he understand evil? How can any of us?  How can we in our finite minds really understand suffering? Dave makes a great argument for it but we as humans can't even understand each other how then, can we completely understand God. Each man has his own perception whether of creation or of spirituality.

It was when I was pondering this thought one night that Rick's quote from Augustine came to mind. I had it wrong. I had to think more along the line of belief so that I might understand. It was like an a'hah moment for me.Trying to get my brother to see it in that light might be more challenging but worth the effort. He will be with me for four more months. So borrowing the quote from our favorite cajun, here goes;

 Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine

PS I thought Satan wanted to be God. Making of himself a god like The God who created him. Somewhere I read that after the fall of the angels, the remaining angels were sealed unto God for all eternity. Hence they cannot rebel with their free will. Dunno where I read that but I'll be thinking about it and try to find it for us.


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Dave Armstrong
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 Posted: Thu Mar 27th, 2008 12:16 am

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Hi Jackie,

Hmm, this goes back to a debate my brother and I have been having since he moved in with me about two years ago.

He questions God as we know Him. That is, as Catholics (Christians) Over the last few years he has asked questions like: Who is God really?

He should take a look at Jesus. That'll give him a good idea. If He thinks Jesus isn't God then he can start by explaining why He claimed the extraordinary things He did. It goes back to C.S. Lewis's "Lord, liar, or lunatic" scenario.

Anceint religions go farther back than 2000 years?!

Of course, since human beings are homo religioso.

And in order for God to know Himself, He had to create us?! 

That doesn't follow. God is in need of nothing. He created us so that we could have life. It was an act of love on His part, not of necessity at all. How does your brother know that God doesn't know Himself?! He just pulls that notion out of thin air, based on nothing.

And if God is good, than why all the suffering in the world?!

Because of free will. As to natural evil, that is also necessary for the world to be orderly, as I explained at length in the long paper of mine that I linked to.

Why not just fix it. The injustices and atrocities.

Because to do so would override human free will. But it will all be fixed in the end, after the end of the age. So God "fixes" it, but it is in His time, not ours. Human beings have the power to "fix" a great many evils in the world. Why do we always have to blame God. It's the Flip Wilson blame-shifting mentality of Adam and Eve again. "The serpent made me do it" / "The woman made me do it" / "God (rather than man) did it. Why did He do it??!!"

He asks the question, Is God then impotent?!

No, that doesn't follow at all.

Finally who says things are evil? How do we really know things were evil (or good)?!

Now that is a great point. We wouldn't if God hadn't already put the knowledge of good and evil in us. Animals have very little sense of that. It's because we're made in the image of God, and because God is love, and morality is grounded in Him, that we instinctively know what is right and wrong. We're quite capable of unlearning that, though. Women learn to think it is okay to kill their own children, for heaven's sake. What could be more unnatural and instinctively wrong than that? But they do because it's usually men involved, exploiting and using them and making them feel isolated and alienated; along with wicked feminist ideology. I've long thought that if it weren't for irresponsible, selfish men, it would never occur to virtually any woman to have an abortion.

As an aside, my brother has deep thought provoking questions and some of our table discussions have brought both side to investigate things like science and reason. Faith and the Bible. I have come to understand he is seeking, as well as expanding his mind. 

I hope so. You can tell by how he responds to the answers you try to give him. If he automatically blows off everything you say (esp. if it is done with condescension and smirking) then it is a safe bet that he doesn't want to hear the answers and is in rebellion. If he listens with attentiveness and respects and actually interacts with you, then it's safe to say that he has an open mind, though he could possibly be courteous and closed-minded simultaneously. I'll send him my e-book, Christian Worldview vs. Postmodernism for free if he'd like to read that.

One night last year during a heated debate, in his frustration he condemed Jesus and the Bible. That was heart wrenching for me to hear. The next day I told him he was not allowed to speak about God like that in my home again. I told him that I understand he is questioning because he is seeking. To understand so he can believe.

Condemning Jesus is stupid any way you look at it. On what basis? The dumbest thing I observe atheists doing on a regular basis is the denial that Jesus ever existed. I consider that as absurd and ridiculous as belief in a flat earth, or KKK racism.

But I think I have that wrong. How can he understand evil? How can any of us?  How can we in our finite minds really understand suffering?

The philosophers and apologists have given it a shot, to explain it as best as is possible. The Bible mostly opts for the explanation in Job, which is less an explanation than a plea to trust God no matter what. Of course atheists and skeptics find that thoroughly unsatisfactory because they have no faith yet.

Dave makes a great argument for it but we as humans can't even understand each other how then, can we completely understand God.

We can't. Why would anyone think we can? That's why philosophy has to operate in steps. First we determine if belief in God is rational. If we conclude that it is, then we conclude that men cannot totally understand an infinite, omniscient, eternal God. That's a given. It's silly to think that we could. Most of what we have come to know about God has come from revelation, not philosophy.

Each man has his own perception whether of creation or of spirituality.

We're not totally autonomous because we're made in God's image and every person has some knowledge of God within (Romans 1).

It was when I was pondering this thought one night that Rick's quote from Augustine came to mind. I had it wrong. I had to think more along the line of belief so that I might understand. It was like an a'hah moment for me.

It's true that God has to give us grace to understand Him at all. The grace is already there prior to our attempts to reason about God and theology.

Trying to get my brother to see it in that light might be more challenging but worth the effort. He will be with me for four more months.

You should give him Pascal to read. It's really different. Perhaops he'd be interested in Peter Kreeft's running commentary on Pascal. It's an excellent book. If he wants some very heavy philosophical "meat" about faith and reason, I recommend An Essay in Aid of a Grammar of Assent by Venerable John Henry Cardinal Newman.

So borrowing the quote from our favorite cajun, here goes;

 Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine

PS I thought Satan wanted to be God. Making of himself a god like The God who created him.


That's right.

Somewhere I read that after the fall of the angels, the remaining angels were sealed unto God for all eternity. Hence they cannot rebel with their free will.

I don't know if that's true or not. On the face of it, it would seem that if they were going to rebel, they would have done so long ago like Satan and his cronies did (just as Adam and Eve (and the human race) did so right away. No time was lost!

Dunno where I read that but I'll be thinking about it and try to find it for us.

That would be interesting to see. Thanks again for the great discussion. 



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David W. Emery
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 Posted: Thu Mar 27th, 2008 12:42 am

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Somewhere I read that after the fall of the angels, the remaining angels were sealed unto God for all eternity. Hence they cannot rebel with their free will.

I don't know if that's true or not. On the face of it, it would seem that if they were going to rebel, they would have done so long ago like Satan and his cronies did (just as Adam and Eve (and the human race) did so right away. No time was lost!

“Sealed for all eternity” is a misconception. It views eternity as if it were an infinite length of time, which it is not. Eternity is the absence of time; there is no duration. Therefore, speaking of the angels as unable to rebel with their free will is absurd. The angels have made their decision; without duration they are not going to change, simply because it is an eternal decision. It is their own free will which does not allow them to renege.

David


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 Posted: Thu Mar 27th, 2008 02:31 am

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If I may simplify the answer to the original question (if I can … I have not been able to post from home):

God did not make darkness.  Read Genesis 1.  When God created the heavens and the earth, everything was dark, so God created light.  Dark is where light isn't.

God did not create evil.  God created good.  Evil is where good isn't.

God did not create hate.  God created love.  Hate is where love isn't.

God did not create sin.  God created grace.  Sin is where grace isn't.

As people with free will, we have the opportunity to reject God and when we do, we are where God isn't.  That opens us to evil.

And where evil is, Satan follows.  "An empty mind is the devil's playground."

Satan is where God isn't.



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Parodyonlife
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 Posted: Fri Apr 4th, 2008 05:33 pm

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Annie wrote: Satan rebelled by saying "non serviam," I will not serve. He had the free will to do so. God didn't create evil but in giving us and the angels free will he did create a potential for evil.


So God made a mistake in making the pontential for his creation to go asunder?



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Dave Armstrong
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 Posted: Fri Apr 4th, 2008 07:03 pm

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Parodyonlife wrote: So God made a mistake in making the potential for his creation to go asunder?


Negatory. I replied to this objection / conundrum recently:

1) With free will and free choice comes the necessary potentiality for evil choice.

2) The only way to absolutely avoid the evil choice altogether (even for an omnipotent being) is to eliminate all choice, and create mere robots or automatons.

3) #2 doesn't allow a free, loving relationship. It eliminates meaning and purpose, and creatures made in the image of God. It reduces human beings to animals.

4) Therefore, because of #3, God chose the option of #1, because love with the presence of evil also is better than a state of affairs with no evil but also no love and meaning among creatures.



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