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brian
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Posted: Wed Oct 18th, 2006 04:06 am |
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| I got this book for my mom and she absolutely loves it. which makes me happy. One thing she mentioned though was that the writer confuses Mary Magdalene with the Mary who sat at Jesus' feet or something like that. That he gets his Mary's mixed up. She said it in no way hinders her enjoyment of the book or its points, but i was wondering if this were true or if she missed something. I have not read it yet. I am waiting a little more.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Oct 18th, 2006 09:33 am |
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This confusion had its origin in medieval times and was popular for several centuries. It is, of course, quite unlikely that the two Marys should be identified. The author of the Cloud of Unknowing simply picked it up from his teachers, so he is not responsible for it. As your mother says, we can simply recognize and appreciate the author’s points while ignoring the inaccuracy.
As you read this book, you need to remember that it is rather advanced spiritual counsel and not suitable for everyone. Its point of departure is the eastern Christian tradition of hesychasm, the so-called “negative way” (via negativa) from which the Greek method known as the Jesus Prayer arose. There is a similar ideology in the west, known as quietism, which is actually a heresy.
As you can see from the articles I’ve linked, there is some controversy over the hesychastic approach. It can be orthodox; the Cloud of Unknowing is considered safe. But it can easily lapse into something like Molino’s heretical quietism if pushed too far.
There are several other spiritual traditions in the west, and if you are going to pursue a contemplative way of prayer, I would recommend you check them out before deciding what is best for you.
David
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brian
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Posted: Thu Oct 19th, 2006 04:12 am |
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this stuff is a bit confusing. I actually had read an eastern orthodox mystical theology book and was under the impression that it was "orthodox" to think in these categories of God's essence and his energies. that we experience the energies moreso while He remains in His essence unknowable. They seem to claim very many saints or theologians to back this up, like symeon the new theologian. Now it seems the west does not agree. i have never heard of this being a difference between east and west. I tend to want to favor the east becasue i think the west at times can be a bit too definig of mysterious things. How can we really speak so philosophically about God. So rationally. I think there is some good in the apophatic way and the catophatic way.
anyway, i do want to keep myself from any dangerous techniques or heresies. though i think the cloud of unknowing is largely influential and considered safe as you say. I know it might not be right for everyone, but i think i will like it at the right time of my life.
interestingly enough i went to see my spiritual director and she sis actually starting a centering prayer group based largely on the concepts of this book, so the timing is pretty funny. It is actually based mostly on a work of contemplative/centering prayer by Fr. Thomas Keeting I believe. Are you familiar with this source? is it one that you trust I can be safe to at least try out?
Augustine also confuses me. It seems he changes his mind throughout his life on some things? is this the case? When does one know one is reading good Augustine? Also the east strongly contends that his theology is very flawed and he shows weak translation skills that are responsible for some of our overboard thoughts on original sin, though they acknowledge his sainthood? what do i make of this?
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Oct 20th, 2006 12:17 am |
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Let’s back up just a bit and go over what we’ve covered so far before we proceed with your new round of questions.
First, I need to mention that the articles I linked in my first reply are rather biased against the hesychastic approach of the eastern Church because of the stir over Molinos and quietism, which raged well into the 20th century. There was also a semi-quietist controversy which began in the 17th century over Bishop Fenelon and one of his protegees, Madame Guyon, and continued for some time.
Second, I need to mention that because hesychasm is the only spiritual approach recognized in the eastern Church, the eastern opinion of western thought is also rather negatively biased. In the west we see a variety of thought, so one cannot make blanket statements about western spirituality the way one might about its counterpart in the east. Yet one regularly sees all western thought, whether theological, scientific or mercantile, lumped together in the eastern mind, just as westerners have a difficult time distinguishing the nuances of the unfamiliar oriental way. There’s a saying that puts this into perspective: “In the dark, all Chinamen look alike.”
All this back-and-forth between east and west allows us to see that much of the problem is human limitation and imperfection, not the relative value of the different systems of thought. And really, what does theory matter if the important part is one’s salvation? Each person is called to his own station, his own individual life before God.
Personally, I accept and use parts of several spiritual traditions, including some insights from the eastern way simply because they work for me.
As I said earlier, hesychasm can be perfectly orthodox. I believe the Cloud of Unknowing to be an example of this, while at the same time providing a unique western perspective on a predominantly eastern approach.
Centering prayer is seemingly a similar approach, but it belies the Christian tradition by adhering to a number of non-Christian principles. One of these is the idea that the Deity is not a personal being but more of an impersonal energy or force. Another is the concentration on plumbing the depths of the human psyche instead of reaching out to God; in other words, technique is considered more important than “making contact” in prayer. Its principal effect, reported by many who have experimented with it, seems to be self-hypnotism. Is this prayer?
I studied centering prayer carefully back in the early 80s, when it was just getting a following. I read works by Pennington, Keating and a number of others. I checked out the origin and orthodoxy of the method. I probed the soundness of their approach, both theoretically and practically. My conclusion was that centering prayer has more in common with New Age, and especially with westernized forms of Hinduism, than with Christianity.
Advocates of centering prayer often claim that it is drawn from ancient prayer practices of the Christian contemplative heritage, such as the Desert Fathers, Lectio Divina, the Cloud of Unknowing, St. John of the Cross and St. Teresa of Avila. In fact, its documented origin was a 1969 experiment in which the principal inventors of the method attempted to adapt elements of Hindu meditation to a Christian environment.
If the inventors had simply chosen to westernize the eastern Christian hesychastic tradition, as did the anonymous author of the Cloud of Unknowing, they would have remained on a true course. By introducing elements of Hinduism, they opened the door to a broad misinterpretation of the fundamental purpose of Christian prayer and a misuse of hesychastic techniques in a manner more suited to New Age than Christianity.
Instruction in centering prayer is popular in retreat houses, both Catholic and Protestant. It is recommended by any number of otherwise sensible and spiritual people because they have been fed a line about centering prayer being traditional and perfectly orthodox. It is not. It was invented in the United States during the 1970s by a trio of Trappist monks. Its principal insights and methods are drawn from Hinduism.
Your final question has to do with St. Augustine. What you relate is mostly eastern misunderstanding of western ways and Protestant misunderstanding of Catholic ways. Late in life, St. Augustine wrote a book called Retractions. In it, in the manner of an examination of conscience, he humbly criticized much of his former thought and work.
In any human being’s life, one can discern a progression of ideas and a growth in maturity. What St. Augustine’s critics have done is take this process out of context and claim that he changed his mind constantly (simply false) and that his theology is flawed. Compared to the divine reality they encounter, isn’t everybody’s theology flawed? Look what St. Thomas Aquinas, at the end of his life, said about his own work: that compared to what he had experienced of God it was “all straw.”
That St. Augustine’s knowledge of Greek was imperfect is true. But it wasn’t all that bad. The fact that he was severely pummeled by St. Jerome over certain niceties of the Greek language proves nothing, for St. Jerome was the world’s foremost linguistic expert. The fact is that St. Augustine could hold his own against most other non-native speakers of Greek.
Regarding original sin (and we could add in a number of other theological topics, such as predestination and purgatory), St. Augustine’s thought was quite original. Since he was breaking new ground, it is to be expected that not everything he thought was perfectly worked out. Historically, his effort supported more than a millennium of thought on the subject by some of the world’s greatest minds.
David
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brian
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Posted: Fri Oct 20th, 2006 12:48 am |
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so you are adding more confusion for me. Well, i appreciate your honesty. so far i have seemed to think centering prayer looked ok from a pamphlet i read. Is it really wrong to simply sit silently in God's presence. To simply be with Him in silence? must one always be meditating or thinking. I thought the concept of contemplative prayer was just this. How is centerring prayer different? it seems to me to be more of a discipline of silence in the presence of the Lord. I think that the idea of being silent before God in prayer is very good and healing for us. Let me quote you a few things on the pamphlet i got about centering prayer, because it sounds much different than what you are warning me about.
"a. it is not a technique but a way of cultivating a deeper relationship with God."
that seems different than what you said about it being a technique and that it makes God more of an impersonal force.
"c. It is not a form of self-hypnosis but a way to quiet the mind while maintaining its alertness"
maybe some say it is self hypnotic, but it is not claimed to be the case here.
"e. it is not a para-psychological experience but an exercise of faith, hope, and selfless love.
f. it is not limited to the 'felt' presence of God but is rather a deepening of faith in God's abiding presence.
g. it is not refelective or spontaneous prayer, but simply resting in God beyond thoughts, words, and emotions.
now, i was leary of some of the things i read in your articles that seemed like techniques like burying your headin your chin and waiting to see a light. this stuff seemed a bit spooky. but all this prayer asks you to do is to think of a word that keeeps you from distractions or cnters you on a positive thoguht like 'love' or Jesus' and asks you to just sit in God's presence and they prefer you keep your back straight. What is wrong with this? I find my besst times in prayer now to be just silently letting myself become the prayers or sitting before the monstrance just beholding God's presence without saying anything at all until certain things to pray for sort of seem relevant.
The goalit says is to move beyond conversation with god to union with Christ. Gregory the great of the 6th century talks about contemplative prayer as being 'resting in God' It seems that the technique i am reading about is simply trying to give you a discipline toward cultivating this. I though the idea of prayer and love beyond emotinos or feelings was also very acceptable. It also recommended lectio divina which is good.
here is the technique in short.
1. choose a sacred word as the symbol of your intention to consent to God's presence and action within.
2. sitting comfortably and with eyes closed, settle briefly and silently introduce the sacred word as the symbol of your consent to God's presence and action within.
3. When thoughts or distractions engage you return to the word.
4. at the end reamin in silence for a few minutes.
all i see here is a desire for people to simply sit and be with god. To sek and know His love and to give themselves over to Him. I am a fan of the eastern traditions Jesus prayer and try to not say it constantly but enough that it plays in my mind at times when i lose focus ror feel tempted. Is the Jesus prayer considered ok by the west? the idea of breathing the prayer?
I guess i need to decide if i am going to pursue this any further,, or need to change any tecniques i presently use, such as simply sitting in God's presence and trying to be at one with Him without using words. Being still in His presence. I thought this sort of thing was considered the highest form of prayer. I think if i joined a group like this it would simply give me time and discipline of spending time in adoration of Jesus seeking deeper union with him.
The pamphlet i quoted from was written by Thomas Keeting.
Brian
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Oct 20th, 2006 02:20 am |
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Brian, my own reading and experience tell me that the pamphlet you are citing is not entirely honest. It seems to say nothing about the origin and history of centering prayer. It also seems to ignore the experience of thousands of people who have been exposed to it through retreats or experimentation.
Centering prayer IS a technique. There is no getting around this. The denial you cite is either very naive or it is deceptive; it is NOT the truth. What is the truth is that centering prayer is not prayer at all, but a technique of concentration. Supposedly this will allow a person to begin to pray, but my own experience tells me that other methods of recollection are equally effective and not nearly so intrusive and dangerous to the human psyche.
That centering prayer does not encourage self-hypnosis goes contrary to the experience of the majority. Perhaps the inventors’ intent was not self-hypnosis, but this is in fact the result in many cases.
That centering prayer “is not a para-psychological experience” is tantamount to denying its origin and, again, the experience of many who have tried it.
That centering prayer is “a deepening of faith in God’s abiding presence” is very much contrary to the fact that it ignores God’s personal presence.
All this prayer asks you to do is to think of a word that keeps you from distractions or centers you on a positive thought like 'love' or 'Jesus'.
Compare this to the Hindu use of the mantra. This is merely a technique for focusing the mind. If pushed to the limit, it results in self-hypnosis.
A mantra, even in a Christian context, cannot in itself be considered prayer. If you consult the Cloud of Unknowing, you will see that the author has you start out with a thought or word in a way similar to what centering prayer uses. But the Cloud of Unknowing does not stop there. It moves on to a personal encounter with God as the pray-er moves purposefully into his presence after recollection. This is something that centering prayer does not do. Centering prayer stays in the “void” created by the mantra instead of moving beyond it.
What is most deceptive about the centering prayer approach is that it uses all the vocabulary of legitimate Christian prayer in a different sense than the traditional understanding. It co-opts the familiar but misleads by pointing in a different direction.
Here is the technique in short.
See, I told you it was a technique. Even you recognize it. So why does the pamphlet deny that centering prayer is a technique?
I guess I need to decide if I am going to pursue this any further or need to change any techniques I presently use, such as simply sitting in God's presence and trying to be at one with Him without using words.
What you describe is the approach I used for years. I have found, however, that allowing a spontaneous response is necessary to maintain the personal contact. Do not be fooled by phrases such as “the highest form of prayer.” The highest form IS NOT a technique but a presence. It is a grace God gives you, not something you do.
I think if I joined a group like this it would simply give me time and discipline of spending time in adoration of Jesus seeking deeper union with him.
Most people, including myself, have just the opposite experience. Frankly, I find ordinary eucharistic adoration much more to the point of encountering the real Jesus. To busy yourself with techniques instead of simply making use of the Real Presence as it is offered is to move away from the God you seek and bury yourself in yourself instead.
I know, Brian, that the prospect of attending classes and learning from a spiritual master is exciting. It may even be edifying if you have a teacher who is both learned and saintly. But actually praying and living the Christian life is another matter. Centering prayer is based on a disconnect, not a pipeline; the techniques it enjoins work at cross-purpose to real union with the real God. From the outset it is dysfunctional when it comes to prayer, and this is why I cannot recommend it.
A while ago I recommended you acquaint yourself with several other spiritual traditions before you decide which is best for you. I still think this is the best advice I can give you at this point in your journey. Get a book like The Spiritual Life by Fr. Adolph Tanquerey. Read it thoroughly; it’s a big book, but it’s not difficult. See all the references and the extensive bibliography he provides. Check out the different traditions. See how they coincide, where they differ. You will see that the Christian tradition is very rich. But one thing you will not see in that tradition is a place for concepts borrowed from Hinduism.
David
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brian
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Posted: Fri Oct 20th, 2006 04:08 am |
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wow. well, lets see if we can establish some things. first of all, is it or is it not good to sometimes pray in stillness and silence? there is such a thing as contemplative prayer worth seeking to those called to it. Is it ok to just meditate on a characteristic of God or the idea of His presence even if making no formal request? I think this is, maybe so ong as you are seking a relationship and not something cosmic or hypnotic.
I know we can go to eucharistic adoration, but this is not the only place we can find God. Is it not ok to sometimes focus on the indwelling Trinity within our hearts? To look inside of ourselves to find God?
secondly, are you sure Christianity does not use anything from hinduism? is the Jesus prayer tradition bad? also, what about the rosary. people even in the catholic church even on this website i think have compared the hail mary to a mantra or a baakground tecnique. is this different becasue in the case of the rosary your mind is working toward something?
also, is it ok, even if this method is not what it should be for me to still think the most of the peopke who are using it. I mean, it is very close to some good things, and as you can see from the pamphlet, the things you accuse it of, are not necessarily what the people doing it are aiming at. so perhaps these are good intending people who are indeed somehow experiencing God. as you said before on another post, even the intent to do good is like doing the good. so if all they want to do is foster greater devotion to Jesus and teach others, in a sense hopefully it is working for some people. maybe for some time in silence is good, especially if it is God they look to and not a void or emptiness. Granted, i realize that if the technique is harmful that is bad, my pont is that the people are still good people...i know you did not say they weren't but i want to make sure you do agree.
i still think i can pray with these people and just be careful not to do anything that is not normal for me already. becasue i do believe in silent prayer, or meditating on a single holy thought for a while. so i could go and just pray normally and enjoy the company and maybe even ask tough questions to them if i see something that is not comfortable.
i also like to be silent to give God control to bring things to the surface that will help me. I think there is a way where the Spirit prays inside of you, as you know.
i think all prayeris important, spontaneous, rosary, written prayers, silent longing, simply sitting at His feet. I would agree though that not everything can or should be prayer, so i am glad for the warnings. i certainly do not want to be involved with anything too new age or hypnotic or from another religion.
I will say the person offering this is a pesron i admire a lot and to me is in good fellowship with Jesus, so i think it is working for her maybe even inspite of her influence..though she bases her clas on the cloud of unknowing so maybe she actually is not too deep in the scary parts. but if i think it is dangerous or unproductive i will just quit.
Brian
Last edited on Fri Oct 20th, 2006 04:14 am by brian
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Oct 20th, 2006 10:33 am |
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As you know, Brian, it is not often I speak so forcefully against something. I have spoken against centering prayer because there appears to be a lot of misinformation making the rounds.
I wanted particularly to distinguish between the viewpoint of the Cloud of Unknowing and that of Meninger, Pennington and Keating, the three inventors of centering prayer. There is a fundamental difference between the two regarding what prayer consists in and the relative importance of techniques in bringing it about. I believe that the promoters of centering prayer are making a fundamental mistake. Even the name “prayer” is a misnomer when applied to their technique. The author of the Cloud of Unknowing properly makes this distinction between technique and presence and explains to the reader how to make the transition.
Yesterday I formed my meditation around a sermon by the German mystic Johann Tauler on the subject of a passage from the prophet Jeremiah which states, “They have forsaken me, the fountain of living waters, and hewn out cisterns for themselves, broken cisterns that can hold no water!” Tauler explores this idea of cisterns from the point of view of prayer. He deplores the tendency for the pray-er to concentrate on technique to the detriment of actual contact with the Lord. “Prayer is the raising of one’s mind and heart to God or the requesting of good things from God,” says St. John Damascene. Jeremiah’s cisterns are our tendency to bury ourselves in our own souls instead of seeking God. Tauler’s observation is that the water found in cisterns stagnates because it has no living source and no outlet. Souls closed in on themselves stagnate for the same reason.
Recollection is a process of “gathering one’s thoughts” before actual prayer begins. It is not itself prayer. Recollection can be accomplished in a variety of manners. I spoke some months ago about the different approaches outlined in the Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius of Loyola. There are many other sources, many other ideas of how this can be accomplished. The Cloud of Unknowing proposes a technique which bears a superficial resemblance to that of centering prayer. What centering fails to do is actually to begin praying.
Now what does St. John of the Cross say about the idea of silence and “resting in God”? His recommendation is that prayer should be actively directed toward God until such time as God moves into the soul and begins taking over in the process we call infused prayer. This does not mean that stillness is a bad thing. It means that “active” stillness can be premature and ill advised, resulting in loss of contact between the soul and God and leaving the soul in a void.
It took me many years to get this right, because I had a tendency to quit my active pursual of vital contact with God prematurely, and I did have trouble with losing my way and drifting aimlessly in the soul’s own void. Or conversely, my meditations would take a detour through reading and study. There are so many byways and false paths in prayer that one can be thoroughly lost long before he discovers that something is amiss. This is time and effort wasted.
Maintaining your station before God is so important that I cannot overstress it. If your mind is drifting from God to the subject matter of your meditation, you have lost it. If your mind has entered into repose on anything but God, you have lost it. If you are simply “vegging out” in a void, you have lost it.
My own experience shows me that, if one spends a half hour “in prayer,” actual prayer will typically account for about two or three minutes of that time. The rest is spent struggling to make contact. I find that that being in the presence of the Blessed Sacrament is a powerful way to focus and actually pray rather than making vain motions. Yes, prayer is possible in other places and times, but it is much easier in the adoration chapel because of God’s physical presence. Most Christians find this to be true, and the saints attest to it strongly.
I say that actual prayer will typically last “two or three minutes.” Duration is not critical; contact actually made is. In other words, quality is what counts, not quantity. God can impart in an instant what you need from prayer. The mystics often relate that their souls are visited for a very short time, but it is the intensity of that encounter that produces results as the soul is touched by the infinitely powerful Lord.
It is not my intention to denigrate well-known Christian practices such as the rosary or the Jesus prayer. I use these myself. But I use them as a prelude to actual prayer, hoping to pass beyond them to meet my God.
Is it OK, even if this method is not what it should be for me, to still think the most of the people who are using it?
My purpose is not to criticize people but a method which does not accomplish what it was intended to do. I believe that those who use or promote centering prayer are sincere. I also believe they are deceived, but this is not a reflection on their standing as Christians so much as an observation that they have been led to believe that prayer is something other than what it is. Saints are sometimes mistaken; they are not less saintly for this. On the other hand, if one can see and avoid a mistake, so much the better, don’t you think?
I still think I can pray with these people and just be careful not to do anything that is not normal for me already.
This sounds to me a little like, “I think I can experiment safely with drugs just so long as I am careful not to become addicted.” The trick is in the fact that you don’t know until too late when you have crossed the line. It’s impossible for me to say whether you will end up going off the deep end if you decide to take the class. I can only say that there is at least a certain danger, a danger that is avoidable.
If the person offering the class is going to concentrate on the Cloud of Unknowing rather than centering prayer, I would say this is a point in favor. But I will also reiterate what I said at the outset: the Cloud of Unknowing speaks of an advanced form of prayer which is not suitable for everyone at all times. This is why I recommended that you study other approaches to prayer first.
David
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brian
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Posted: Fri Oct 20th, 2006 04:22 pm |
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what about simply convering with God throughout the day, or the practice of the presence of God. Praying without ceasing. i can see what you mean about maybe only getting a few minutes of a perfect connection, but i try to find myself focused on prayer as much as i can everywhere i go, or at least trying to life my heart up to the Lord. granted i forget for minutes or hours here and there but then like brother lawrence i try to return. is this not prayer?
i am still assuming that it is good to at times simply pray in silence or withour words or maybe just concentrating on communion with God. I am not sure if you have agreed or disagreed with me. I think that this is what contemplative prayer is like. (if i can say i know anything about it) but my idea is that contemplative prayer is just spending time with God at His feet or in His lap or however you picture it simply basking in His goodness and raising your heart to Him without words.
The reason i have a hard time worrying about this particular group is because i imagine that those involved are indeed simply raising their hearts up to the Lord. I do not think they would be focusing on a technique or emptiness, but using the technique to focus on a reality, a deep abiding presence. and i think that so long as God is the object of someones hearts desire that they are indeed in prayer. Maybe if it turns into what you are saying it would not be, and maybe i will ask more questions before i begin, but i have a hard time thinking that those doing this who have aslo read the works of de Caussade or Teresa and others would be abandoning all contact with God in favor of some trance like thing.
so is this a favorable formul...get to a chapel. maybe say a few simple prayers or get a few things off yourmind conversing with God. ssit silently for a few minutes. maybe read some scripture or devotional material. sit and ponder on it. pray for what is in your mind. say more written prayers or a rosary. then sit in God' spresence just worshiping and adoring Him but not necesarily with any words. As people or ideas or concpets come to mind search your heart for where you think God is speaking to you and converse with Him about them and ask Him fir guidance, and return to silence here and there and ask Him to keep searching you or revealing Himself, ever listening for what He may be speaking to you.
now this is not an exact order, but this is more or less how i go about things, though the order may change. do ou see any problems with this? do i need to "fix" anything? to me it seems wonderful those moments where i can simply trust he is present and simply lift my heart up to him but with no thoughts or requests other than to be with him. is this just some self-hypnosis?
Brian
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Oct 20th, 2006 11:25 pm |
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Brian, I am not disagreeing with your current understanding or practices. If I have spoken against centering prayer, it is because it pretends to be something it is not — specifically, Christian and prayer. I do not fear for your life if you should actually participate in that class, but you do need a solid background in the traditional Christian approaches to prayer — and a lot of practice in them — before you tackle something as foreign as centering prayer, because you must be able to distinguish between what is authentic and what is not. You haven’t arrived at this point yet, because you are just starting to ask questions about it. Even if I give you the answers, it will be some while before you can say that you have made them your own.
The reason I have a hard time worrying about this particular group is because I imagine that those involved are indeed simply raising their hearts up to the Lord.
I am sure that they are quite sincere. Seldom do I encounter a person engaging in prayer or prayer-like activities who is not. But this does not mean that they understand what they are about and can deal with the challenges presented by the enemies of the soul. Even people using perfectly legitimate methods can be led astray through ignorance and their fallen human nature. A spiritual guide has to know his charge’s spiritual needs and tendencies very well, and to help him advance he must walk a tightrope between what the person needs and what he is able to handle.
I’ve mentioned a couple of times that the approach taken by the Cloud of Unknowing is quite advanced, usually reserved for people who are already receiving infused prayer. The technique you see in centering prayer, if it were legitimate, would fall in a similar category. Neither you nor I are at the point where we need to consider these things. The fact that the people teaching centering prayer are pushing it for beginners in prayer and the spiritual way shows clearly that they are far from the true path. Learning a technique will not automatically draw down God’s graces upon anyone, and it will likely cause more harm than good because the person is now convinced that he has advanced far in holiness and has the tools to become a mystic. Brian, this is bunk.
I do not recall who said it, but there is a saying that comes to mind at this moment: “Do not try to pray in ways that people tell you are ‘better.’ Pray as you are able.” God will reward the humble man who cries out to him, while the proud man, for all his learning and pretensions, will stand alone. Another book recommendation: Spiritual Passages, by Fr. Benedict Groeschel. You know the author well enough, I’m sure.
Now lest you misunderstand something I said last time, I need to explain. I spoke about the “two or three minutes of actual prayer.” What I am speaking of here is not prayer in the ordinary sense, but the “point of contact,” when God communicates to you. If you are calling out to God, even when you feel or perceive nothing, this is prayer in the ordinary sense. If you are beginning to perceive and understand what is yet lacking in you, this is God answering and what I am referring to. More often than not, his voice pummels your conscience and almost makes you wish you hadn’t begun praying. But you know in the depths of your heart that he speaks the truth, so you accept it and continue in his presence. After all, there is no place you can hide from God.
Do I need to ‘fix’ anything?
First you have to have something that’s broken. This is precisely why you don’t need a new technique: nothing in your prayer life is broken. You’re doing fine. So why mess it up with something you don’t need?
David
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brian
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Posted: Sat Oct 21st, 2006 01:59 am |
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i have found the amount of influence from other religions a bit troubling, but most of what i see seems to be something that would work. The method seems to be straight from the cloud of unknowing. Most of what i see seems to be aimed at relationship and deepening awareness of God and His dwelling in your soul. it seems to be the same thing. I see some positive testimoies as well as a respect for lectio divina.
over the next few days could you possibly go to this website for me and when you have time give me like one example of something regarding the concept of this prayer method that you find to be questionable? cause most of what it says sounds like it is well steeped in Christian goals. I can not see the danger yet. Most of what i see seems good. I believe you know more about it than i do, but i want to learn more before i talk to others about it who also are interested that i know, and i still may join the group with a deterrmination to simply pray with them in my own way.
it is not like trying drugs becasue drugs you give your consent for an instant and then you are trapped. this is something i could know what i am not willing to do, and not do it at all. all they wiull force me to do is sit in silence for 20 minutes in a chapel where the sacrament will be. so, all i have to do is pray like i normally would and maybe try using the sacred word to get focused and then just focus on God and pray as i normally would.
http://www.contemplativeoutreach.org/
Brian
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006 12:43 am |
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Brian, the website you linked is one familiar to me. This is a commercial company that teaches centering prayer as a technique. Their approach is New Age. Many of their teachers are neither Catholics nor Christians; they state this on the website. They do not teach Christianity; they teach their method of “spirituality,” period. A look around the site should make this obvious. Their promotional materials, of which the brochure you read is an example, are full of the buzz words, the smoke and mirrors one encounters in the advertising world. It is not in the least truthful. In a religious context, this not merely disgusting, it is scandalous.
When I was your age and a little younger, the hippies were in full flower. I saw it all first hand. I saw and heard Timothy Leary. I saw Haight and Ashbury. I saw the drugs and their devastating effects on my friends. I saw my friends’ fascination with oriental religions, and how their lives deteriorated when they left Christianity to chase moonbeams. These things were all around me. I have personally investigated the possibility of combining concepts and techniques derived from Islam, Hinduism and Buddhism with Christianity and found them utterly incompatible because of the fundamental differences in their respective assumptions regarding the relationship between God and man.
I’ve given you a preliminary reply of the following claims (posted on their website and repeated in their brochure) in a previous post. Below I will answer them much more specifically.
“Centering prayer is not a technique but a way of cultivating a relationship with God.”
1. False. It is a technique. It is even taught as a technique. The commercial company that makes this statement does precisely this.
2. Christians believe in prayer, which is a communication with God, as the proper means of promoting a relationship with God. Centering prayer is by their own admission not itself prayer but a technique which some have suggested as a preparation for prayer; it is therefore is falsely labeled and falsely promoted.
“It is not a relaxation exercise but it may be refreshing.”
False. It is a relaxation exercise, and it is based on yoga. The inventors of the technique have attempted to “baptize” it, but their use of Christian terminology and their reference to traditional Christian resources does not change its basic purpose.
“It is not a form of self-hypnosis but a way to quiet the
mind while maintaining its alertness.”
1. Whether a person actually becomes hypnotized by this method is an individual matter; some do, some don’t. The fact remains that thousands of people who have tried centering prayer have experienced self-hypnosis.
2. The claim that centering prayer is “a way to quiet the mind” directly contradicts what was claimed earlier about centering prayer not being a “relaxation exercise.”
3. By the same token, this statement also contradicts the initial claim that centering prayer “is not a technique.”
“It is not a charismatic gift but a path of transformation.”
The first part is true. It has nothing to do with the Holy Spirit; the company that promotes it does not even recognize that there is a Holy Spirit. The second part is so vague as to be meaningless.
“It is not a para-psychological experience but an
exercise of faith, hope and selfless love.”
1. False. Since its result is often self-hypnosis, it is an avenue of possible para-psychological experience.
2. The exercise of the theological virtues (supernatural virtues which are not acquired by human effort but are a gift of God) begins with their acceptance and manifests itself in acts of faith, hope and love. It is impossible to demonstrate that a technique of focusing the mind is an act of the theological virtues. So this entire statement is false according to basic Christian theology.
“It is not limited to the ‘felt’ presence of God but is
rather a deepening of faith in God’s abiding presence.”
1. The “felt” presence of God is deceptive in any case. The Christian spiritual tradition specifically and unanimously rejects it as an indicator of one’s relationship with God.
2. The same tradition also affirms that no human technique or method can deepen one’s faith in anything pertaining to God because, as stated above, the supernatural virtue of faith is a gift of God, not something we “do.”
3. If it be claimed that “faith” should be defined as a natural virtue, so as to be humanly attainable, then it is no longer specifically Christian and has no role in salvation. This is a basic Christian tenet.
“It is not reflective or spontaneous prayer, but simply
resting in God.”
1. The first part is definitely true, because it is not prayer at all but a method of relaxing the mind, just as they have said.
2. This in turn belies the affirmative part of the statement, about resting in God. As the oriental tradition of meditation shows, relaxation of the mind has nothing necessarily to do with God.
Brian, you know that I am a 32-year veteran of the advertising industry. I’ve seen all the pitches and all the shams. What these people claim for their product is ridiculous, even shameful. Christian vocabulary is misused in such a manner as to suggest that centering prayer is both Christian and real prayer, whereas it is a matter of public knowledge that its orgin is in Hinduism and it is not prayer in the Christian sense but a relaxation technique used by yogis to enter into a trance.
Following are a few eye-opening links to a solidly Catholic source. Note that some of the material is from the Vatican. I should also mention that these documents were all published many years after my own research into centering prayer, so I was not influenced by them.
http://www.catholicculture.org/sites/site_view.cfm?recnum=2828
http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=234
http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=6892
http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=6337
David
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brian
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Posted: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006 02:01 am |
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i will try to let this one die down, but a few more things. is it necesarily wrong to have a relaxation technique in life, were it not to lead to self-hypnosis? could it not be good for one's prayer life to also learn how to clear the mind? is it possible that someone trying this prayer technique who is theologically sound and a practicer of prayer and seeking God regularly will be protected by the Holy Spirit? The thing that i believe is that if the person trying centering prayers goal is to pray and seek God and listen for Him than this is not any different than prayer. If one is merely plunging into the depths of the psyche this would scare me, but the idea of seeking for God to me would protect from this. Anyway, i will read the links and pray about it before i make any decisions.
As far as faith. are there not things we are accountable for...is faith not a cooperation though it is also a gift? I mean, it is living active faith that we are saved by. This is gift from God, but yet our free will must respond. I can not simply stop going to mass confession and serving the poor and hope that faith will force me to do it. are there not free actions we can do or supplications we can make to at least seek for faith to be sent or renewed in us...."how much more will the Father give the Holy Spirit to those who ask" "i do believe, help me with my unbelief" And all the passages where Jesus is amazed at and rewards people on the basis of their faith and is angry at those for a lack of faith...seems to imply some level of human responsibility to at least act on the faith that has been given them as a gift.
i am sure there is a way to have it both ways, sine i would have to agree that faith is a gift, that salvation and faith must be by grace, yet at the same time it seems that there is something about faith that is up to us to cultivate or at least to ask God for the grace necessary and receive from Him in order to persevere.
maybe all i am saying is that we must respond to the grace working in us, but it seems to me to be biblical that we are called on to have and exercise faith, and that if we do not it is we who are accountable. i suppose i have already had a similar discussion about this on another post. it is just your saying that faith is a gift to the point that you make it sound futile to actively pursue this gift that is causing me to ask questions.
brian
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006 05:35 pm |
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Brian, I discussed your questions with my pastor yesterday. He told me, without my asking, that centering prayer, especially as taught in group classes, is New Age and should be strongly discouraged.
He also insisted that, regardless of one’s curiosity, contemplation and mysticism are not for beginners in the Christian way of holiness, that the purging of sin and faults and the regular practice of the virtues comes first. So unless there is clear indication that a person is already experiencing infused prayer, there is no need for detailed explanation or guidance on that topic. Unless, of course, someone is tempted to take a detour; then sufficient instruction should be given to keep the person on the true path. He assured me that what I have told you is the truth, and that I should not be afraid to speak out.
I am fully aware that you are torn between two people giving you opposite advice. You are going to have to decide which of them is telling the truth. Reading the articles in the links I have provided will help to inform you. Be sure to follow the links given with those articles, because they are the authoritative ones. I can supply more material if you need it.
Could it not be good for one's prayer life to also learn how to clear the mind? Is it possible that someone trying this prayer technique who is theologically sound and a practicer of prayer and seeking God regularly will be protected by the Holy Spirit?… If one is merely plunging into the depths of the psyche this would scare me, but the idea of seeking for God to me would protect from this.
The bible, inspired by the Holy Spirit, says, “You shall not tempt the Lord your God” (Deuteronomy 6:16; Matthew 4:7; Luke 4:12). You appear to be suggesting here that a Christian ought to be allowed to do exactly that.
The thing that I believe is that if the person trying centering prayer’s goal is to pray and seek God and listen for Him than this is not any different than prayer.
Yet “centering prayer” is not prayer in the Christian sense because it is not interpersonal. The people who invented it, the people who teach it, both admit this when pressed.
As far as faith [is concerned]: are there not things we are accountable for… is faith not a cooperation though it is also a gift? I mean, it is living active faith that we are saved by. This is [a] gift from God, but yet our free will must respond.
This is good as far as it goes. But it neglects the fact that even our free will and our ability to respond are themselves gifts. “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in me, and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If a man does not abide in me, he is cast forth as a branch and withers” (John 15:5–6). If we remain attached to the life-giving vine, it is by the vine’s own gift that we do so.
I can not simply stop going to mass [and] confession and serving the poor and hope that faith will force me to do it. Are there not free actions we can do or supplications we can make to at least seek for faith to be sent or renewed in us?
Certainly. And you’ve answered your own question. Here’s the classic text: “Ask and you shall receive.” The Christian way is person to person with God. You were taught this as a Baptist; it is no different for Catholics. But this does not mean that we take the initiative, for even our ability to ask for grace is a gift.
I am sure there is a way to have it both ways, since I would have to agree that faith is a gift, that salvation and faith must be by grace, yet at the same time it seems that there is something about faith that is up to us to cultivate or at least to ask God for the grace necessary and receive from Him in order to persevere.
We are called to be faithful to God, and as you say, asking God for the necessary grace to do so is the requisite for faithfulness. But the initiative is always with him. Again, even our ability to ask for grace is a gift. This is a dogma defined by the Council of Trent (Session 6, On Justification, Canon 3).
It is just your saying that faith is a gift to the point that you make it sound futile to actively pursue this gift that is causing me to ask questions.
It is not futile, because even if we humans are fickle and fail, God is faithful and true. You need to trust God and not treat him as if he were an ordinary fallible human being (cf. Romans 3:4). Then everything will be clear.
If you have any more questions, I’ll be happy to discuss them with you privately or in a different thread.
David
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Augustine
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Posted: Sun Oct 22nd, 2006 08:44 pm |
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Brian,
True Christian spirituality is about grace and the cross. Centering Prayer offers a shortcut to avoid the cross and presumes to be able to "milk" grace. This statement may seem harsh, but that's precisely what it proposes.
Therefore, as it's not true Christian spirituality, it's merely a technique. As such, it may provide some psychological comfort that may even be beneficial to prayer, but it should never be confused with prayer, in spite of its name.
Moreover, its proponents have some suspicious credentials, in spite of being Catholic monks. They admit that CP was inspired by their contact with Zen Buddhism and Transcendental Meditation. The former may have its authentic religious expression, but comes from an agnostic religion. The latter is gnostic pseudo-Hinduism. Both find wide presence among New Age circles.
But it doesn't stop there, for, IIRC, one of them became a Zen monk and the other, an official at a TM institute. I am unsure how the superiors of their order have allowed this situation, but they are neck-deep in syncretism, a heresy condemned by the Church.
The book "Cloud of the Unknowing" itself has little to do with CP and is used often out of context to justify CP. The fact still remains that this book is an obscure work that never really made into the collection of great spiritual writings of the Church. It's better if one sticks to saints and doctors of the church.
True prayer is a gift, a grace from God. Contemplative prayer is a special grace from God and given only to those who ask for it and who will benefit from it, getting closer to Him. It is not an easy path to follow, for it leads to Calvary, as the mystic Doctors of the Church, Sts. John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila, have extensively explained.
God bless.
Last edited on Sun Oct 22nd, 2006 09:00 pm by Augustine
____________________
"Empty yourself to overcome temptation."
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FJindra
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Posted: Mon Oct 30th, 2006 11:32 pm |
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Brian,
If I may: one of the simplest descriptions of the difference between Christian prayer and any adaptation of eastern mysticism is that Christian prayer is always active whereas eastern mysticism's goal is a passive state that - in it's extreme - does approach self-hypnosis or an emptying of self so that the practitioner can become one with... nothingness? - I think that is a close interpretation of the meaning of "Nirhvana". (Sorry for the long sentence - too much reading of German theologians)
Anyway, think of your own relationships with other people (I don't know if you are married). Would a wife be pleased if her husband said "I'm just going to be quiet, and not engage you in any conversation, or anything. I expect you to join me in my quiet." Oops.:?
God's relationship with us is harder than with someone who is conversantly present to us. Yet He does converse with us. We need to converse with Him. That is why quietism was rejected, as has been mentioned already in this thread.
God bless you on your prayer journey, and if you remember me in that prayer, I would appreciate it.
____________________
Fr. Frank E. Jindra, AS
Archdiocese of Omaha, NE
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brian
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Posted: Thu Nov 2nd, 2006 09:15 pm |
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