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Credo Catholic
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| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1270 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Jun 25th, 2007 09:52 am |
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| I have been concerned over something I read in another thread: A Personal Relationship with Mary, I think it was. Someone compared praying for certain requests, such as for a boyfriend to marry them, was akin to trying to control God, and was even compared to witchcraft. It was called frivolous, and the statement was made that we are to pray always for God's will to be done period, as if special needs are not to be asked for. Am I reading that right or did I misinterpret the intent? I'm hoping I misinterpreted because if I didn't then my prayer life is in a lot of trouble. I know that God's love for us is unimaginably perfect and His will is better than ours. But I go to Him with every problem and desire I have. I ask for Him to help my son mature and accept responsibility, I ask for blessings for all kinds of people on our prayer chain: surgeries, travel mercies, broken marriages, parenting problems. People have needs, and if a woman is at a point in her relationship with a man that she needs commitment, why should she not ask for the Lord's help? I know that was just an example but what may seem frivolous to you might be a crucial matter to someone else, and it seems as if you are saying be careful what you waste the Lord's time with. Please correct me if I'm not hearing this right, because it has been on my mind since I read it, and it really hit me the wrong way!
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1796 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Jun 25th, 2007 03:37 pm |
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It is good that you mentioned this, Marsha. It is a fine point, and it is one that really needs to be cleared up in the minds and hearts of many.
In the original context, I was agreeing with the inquirer regarding the difference between real prayer and what we might call the pseudo-prayer of the occult. Occult practices, such as we see outlined in the witch of Endor (1 Samuel 28), aim to control God or the spirits whom they conjure up, to force them to do our bidding.
In like manner, the inquirer offered a modern example: “God, make my boyfriend marry me.” This would have been an acceptable prayer if it were rephrased: “God, if it be your will, I would like to see my boyfriend serious enough that he will marry me.” The difference is that, in the second example, the one praying is accepting God’s will and respecting her boyfriend’s will even as she speaks of her desire. In the first, however, God is being told what to do, even if it is not his will or the will of her boyfriend. She wants what she wants and will not be denied.
So the idea is not to prohibit prayer for our earthly needs; after all, even the Our Father (the Lord’s Prayer) contains such petitions: Give us this day our daily bread, and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us; and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil. But you will notice that these are things we actually need in every case, and it is always the will of God to provide these things. On the other hand, to demand from God a certain food is frivolous self-will and therefore evil (cf. Psalm 78:17–20 for an example).
So probably you do not have to change any of your present approach to prayer. You simply need to recognize that prayer can be abused, just as anything else can be abused.
David
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Credo Catholic
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| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1270 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Jun 28th, 2007 12:03 pm |
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Thank you David for your reply. This is a subject that I spend a lot of time thinking about because as I have mentioned I consider prayer my main call to service at this time. Since my conversion and introduction to the many levels of prayer taught by the church and the saints, I sometimes feel like I have jumped off the deep end and am treading water with prayer. First there was the liturgical prayer to get used to, then the little book of catholic prayers I bought that had specific prayer for different occasions and to certain saints, then learning contemplative prayer, then Divine Mercy. The rosary. The litanies. I am trying to work it all in to some purpose, but that purpose is still not exactly clear to me! I am afraid there have been times I did attempt to twist the arm, so to speak, of God. I would never have thought of it as trying to control God, I don't even think that's possible. I usually do ask that His will be done, because I know that anything that happens outside His will would come to no good. Often when I pray for someone on the anonymous prayer chain, I never even hear the outcome and that has been a lesson in humbleness because I can't think I had anything to do with a good outcome if I don't know what the outcome is. But there have been times I begged for mercy for people, I have gone to the church and sat before the Blessed Sacrament at 3:00 on a Friday afternoon and prayed the Divine Mercy for a child who was having a heart transplant. I reminded Jesus he had promised unlimited mercies for those who came to Him then. I prayed the Stations of the Cross and asked for mercy for the child at each station. The child is alive and doing well as of the last I heard, of course many, many people have been praying for him and I'm sure it has been God's will to hear them and bless this child with a miracle. Anyway, I understand your point that intention is the key to not abuse our privilege of going to the Lord with everything, not because He doesn't know what we need better than we do, but because going to Him is the essence of our relationship with Him. In praise, request, and thanksgiving, it's a delight to Him.
I'm sorry if this sounds confusing and rambling. I was interrupted three times by the phone and once by ugly looks from my son who wants the computer! Any thoughts you might make of it would be appreciated.
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Annie
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| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Jun 28th, 2007 12:32 pm |
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| Don't worry about confusing all the different kinds of prayer. Some are considered more "advanced" like contemplative prayer. Start with the easy stuff like the rosary and stations of the cross and various litanies/novenas.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
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Credo Catholic
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| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1270 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Jun 28th, 2007 02:47 pm |
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Thanks Annie, I'm pretty comfortable with the rosary now. I know all the mysteries except the Luminous ones, I'm working on those. The stations of the cross I always do while at the church, and I have a few little books and old Magnificats that have different meditations in them for the different stations. I have seen people pray the stations while kneeling below the station, and by standing in the center aisle across from the station. Some read and some seem to know their prayer by heart. There is no limit to the opportunity to worship and pray and show devotion in the catholic church.
Part of the original thread that led to this one concerned the intercession of the saints. Should one just speak directly to God (as in protestanism) or ask for help and intercession of the saints. Here is my opinion so far: the saints are alive and well in heaven, doing much better than we are! They are there because they chose to follow Jesus and His teachings and they led lives that tried to be holy. They are indeed, much more alive than I am, as Scott Hahn has said. When I am in the church, I am often alone while there praying. But it has occured to me that every seat is filled with the "cloud of witnesses" around me. We are there together praying for a good outcome for someone in need, a miracle of some sort or other. I am not praying to them for their divine assistance because they have no divinity. But they are there to help me commune in spirit with the Lord, as He is there also in the tabernacle. They are "prayer partners" as someone else put it. Yes, I can and do speak directly to the Lord. But there are so many holy "friends" in the saints around me, I can ask them to pray too.
This privilege of going to the church in the middle of the day, during the week, is one that still thrills me even after a year or more of it. It wasn't possible in the old church. The doors were locked, I tried them. And anyway, if I had been able to get in, there wouldn't have been the Blessed Sacrament there. I have sat in our church during a strong thunderstorm, by myself, in front of the tabernacle and just wondered at the might of God. I have sat there while the organist was high above me practicing for Sunday, and it was like a private concert, for me and the Lord! I am just in love with the Catholic church, I don't know any other way to say it.
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BettyBoopToo
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
| Posts: | 538 |
| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 10:14 pm |
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Marsha
this is definately one of the parts of our faith that I too love. I can relate to much of what you have said with regards to prayer and it being your vocation at this time in your life. I too feel that it's a definate vocation for me in mine as well.
Now that our parish offers perpetual adoration, it's just lovely to stop by anytime of the day or night to pray. Father has always kept the side doors unlocked between 6am & 11Pm, but now we have installed a locking system with the code of three numbers given to all active parishners so we can come in at anytime.
I love stopping by and just sitting with the lord in silence. It's one of the great gifts we now have in the catholic church.
This privilege of going to the church in the middle of the day, during the week, is one that still thrills me even after a year or more of it. It wasn't possible in the old church. The doors were locked, I tried them. And anyway, if I had been able to get in, there wouldn't have been the Blessed Sacrament there. I have sat in our church during a strong thunderstorm, by myself, in front of the tabernacle and just wondered at the might of God. I have sat there while the organist was high above me practicing for Sunday, and it was like a private concert, for me and the Lord! I am just in love with the Catholic church, I don't know any other way to say it.
The treasury of prayers and devotions and intimate relationship with the Lord, Our Lady and the Saints have been one of the many great blessings I've discovered in the "One Holy Apostolic Church" and so desire to share these wonderful gifts that the Lord has left in his church with my protestant brothers & sisters.
God Bless you in your prayer life
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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Credo Catholic
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| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1270 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu Jul 5th, 2007 12:48 am |
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| Thank you Betty, I know you are on the same page I'm on. You are going through changes in your life that are causing medical problems and suffering that are bringing you closer to the Lord. I think if more churches had perpetual adoration they would see an increase in the spiritual vitality of their parishioners, and would become a greater force in their communities.
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