| Author | Post |
|---|
BettyBoopToo
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
| Posts: | 538 |
| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2007 04:13 am |
|
Hello
I've recently noticed in my church Bulletin that Father has added a time for "Praying the Hours" after AM Masses and on weekday evenings at 5:30PM.
I've never went to this prayer time yet and was wondering if someone could explain what it is or where I could find the prayers so that I could get an idea of what they do and maybe I may be able to start attending these evening prayer times.
I think that I've seen a small book at the Catholic Book Store that says something like "The Hours" on it, but I've never looked at it and I'm not sure if I need to have one of these to follow along or what????
If anyone could explain I would be very grateful!
Thank You in Advance
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
|
|
|
Juan
Member
| Joined: | Tue Oct 17th, 2006 |
| Location: | Texas USA |
| Posts: | 247 |
| First Name: | unregister | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | unregister |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2007 07:54 pm |
|
Certainly.
The "Hours" is short for "Liturgy of the Hours." It is the ancient custom of praying "7" times a day. The Old Testament says:
Psalm 119:164
Seven times a day do I praise thee because of thy righteous judgments.
For Catholics, the Liturgy is a way to remain connected to the Mass.
Here is an official explanation
You can buy the Liturgy of the Hours here or at your local Catholic bookstore.
There used to be a shorter version called the Breviary. I don't know if that still exists.
Sincerely,
Juan
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5080 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2007 08:21 pm |
|
Juan wrote: There used to be a shorter version called the Breviary. I don't know if that still exists.
There are various shorter versions, Juan, and the Holy Father has actually just reauthorized the old Roman Breviary as part of the motu proprio he released today, so you can bet it will soon be back in print.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
mg57
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Tolland County, Connecticut USA |
| Posts: | 169 |
| First Name: | mg57 | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Infant Baptised Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sat Jul 7th, 2007 10:06 pm |
|
Betty -
It sounds as though your parish is using just the shorter version of morning and evening prayer from the Liturgy of the Hours ( see link below). My parish does that as well before daily morning Mass, and quite a few parishioners participate.
We have used the full Liturgy of the Hours in our faith study group, but it is a bit complicated to learn, - certainly rewarding though ! The instructions in the Liturgy of the Hours itself is unfortunately not very clear, ( I have the one volume edition) so, ..... if you want to try it, purchase one the small booklets of instruction "How to Pray The Liturgy Of The Hours", and the booklet with the dates for the Four Week Psalter, both published by Pauline Books & Media ( also see below).
Shorter Christian Prayer -
Click Here
How to Pray the Liturgy of the Hours-
By Judith Kubicki, CSSF / Pamphlet / 48 pages /
Click Here
Frequently Used Texts and Dates For The Four Week Psalter -
Pamphlet / 32 pages / Dimensions: 4" x 6" / ISBN: 0819826677
Retail price: $1.95
God Bless.
NOTE: Edited to shorten links
Last edited on Sat Jul 7th, 2007 10:15 pm by
|
|
|
BettyBoopToo
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
| Posts: | 538 |
| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jul 8th, 2007 05:23 pm |
|
Thank you all so very much for taking the time and finding these wonderful resources for me.
I'm going to read up on the instructions first and then I think I'll call the church secretary in the am to find out if she or one of the guys know which book I should buy or which one father uses.
prayers for seven times a day sounds like somthing that monks would use. Is it common for folks to pray the hours???
Just curious
thank you all so much
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1793 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Sun Jul 8th, 2007 06:50 pm |
|
BettyBoopToo wrote:
Prayers for seven times a day sounds like somthing that monks would use. Is it common for folks to pray the hours?
Yes, Betty, it is fairly common for laymen to pray at least parts of the Liturgy of the Hours. I’ve done so (with a few lapses) for over 20 years. Typically a layman might pray the morning and evening prayers and perhaps the night office or the office of readings.
But you are right, the Liturgy of the Hours began in monasteries, based on their recitation of the Psalms. The idea of “seven times a day” comes from Psalm 119:164. Clergy and religious are bound by Church law to pray the Liturgy of the Hours, but not all of them are obliged to recite all of the hours.
David
|
|
|
kimdyuma
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 774 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Anglican, Episcopal /Catholic-04/07/07 |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Sun Jul 8th, 2007 07:11 pm |
|
| I think that is is easier to get into the "habit" of parying the hours if you choose just one to start with- morning or evening- which ever fits into your prayer routine the best and then add a second time. growing up as an Anglican I prayed ( with lapses here and there) the morning, noon and evening hours.
____________________
Adopt from your local Humane Society- Please spay or neuter your pets
|
|
|
Credo Catholic
Member
| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1268 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jul 9th, 2007 12:13 am |
|
| Trying to pray the Liturgy of the Hours threw me for a loop. I bought the four volumes over a period of a year as the liturgical year went by, and I tried to learn it but never felt like I was doing it right. It is confusing to me even with the how-to booklet, and we had a one-time session on how to do it at our parish. Now the books sit on the shelf and I use the Magnificat in the morning and at night.
|
|
|
BettyBoopToo
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
| Posts: | 538 |
| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jul 9th, 2007 03:15 am |
|
David W. Emery wrote: BettyBoopToo wrote:
Prayers for seven times a day sounds like somthing that monks would use. Is it common for folks to pray the hours?
Yes, Betty, it is fairly common for laymen to pray at least parts of the Liturgy of the Hours. I’ve done so (with a few lapses) for over 20 years. Typically a layman might pray the morning and evening prayers and perhaps the night office or the office of readings.
But you are right, the Liturgy of the Hours began in monasteries, based on their recitation of the Psalms. The idea of “seven times a day” comes from Psalm 119:164. Clergy and religious are bound by Church law to pray the Liturgy of the Hours, but not all of them are obliged to recite all of the hours.
David
Thank you my friend.
I am thinking that these prayer may be something I may enjoy or be able to fit nicely into my daily routine, as I've been thinking maybe I could use some changes. And maybe commit to additional times of prayer and not just in the AM & Night B4 bed. I occaisionally pray the chaplet at three and sometimes the rosary again in themiddle of the day. But this may be good for me to challenge my time more with additional prayer times.
I sent an e-mail to my director of evangelization and friend in the office. I asked him to review the suggestions that other's here have been so kind to offer me. and then let me know which book he thought would go best with what program father has going at our parish.
I will probably be hearing from my friend in the office tomorrow as he normally has time on Mondays to get back to me. He's very kind and helpful.
Thank you all for your suggestions as they will contribute to where I'm able to purchase my new prayer book. I did not have that resource for shopping yet either.
God Bless and much appreciated
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
|
|
|
Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 734 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jul 9th, 2007 11:41 am |
|
There are 3 "versions" of the LOTH. The 4 volume one. One big fat red volume called "Christian Prayer," and a shorter red one called "Shorter Christian Prayer." There is a "dummies" book on praying the LOTH, which I guess only covers morning and evening prayer. I agree the directions booklet is extremely confusing. You can ask a priest or religious to explain it to you. There are several books available from amazon on how to use the LOTH too. You can tell by the reviews which one is best for you.
I started with Christian Prayer and after two yearly cycles moved on to the 4 volume one because I wanted more patristic readings.
Interestingly, under canon law, priests are required to pray the LOTH but I suspect most say they "don't have time." My response of course is to say, "make time." After all, if they are not praying how can they pastor?
I do morning, evening and night prayer. I moved the office of readings to noon when I am more awake and able to understand the patristic reading which is usually new to me, as a convert.
On vacation, for lightness of packing, I use the "Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary," a slim blue volume that covers one week cycle.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
|
|
|
David W. Emery
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1793 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Mon Jul 9th, 2007 03:42 pm |
|
Annie wrote:Interestingly, under canon law, priests are required to pray the LOTH but I suspect most say they "don't have time."
I’ve heard a few say that they don’t or didn’t pray the Hours. (“Didn’t” meaning that they repented and amended their ways.) But I do believe that the vast majority do pray them, and many go beyond the required and pray on their own. I’ve even known priests who fast and pray during the night for the people of their parish, following the example of the Curé D’Ars.
BettyBoopToo wrote:I am thinking that these prayers may be something I may enjoy or be able to fit nicely into my daily routine.
This was my own thought from the outset. I believe you will find great blessing in it.
David
|
|
|
BettyBoopToo
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
| Posts: | 538 |
| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Mon Jul 9th, 2007 06:04 pm |
|
Hello
Interestingly, under canon law, priests are required to pray the LOTH but I suspect most say they "don't have time." My response of course is to say, "make time." After all, if they are not praying how can they pastor?
I can never tell about others' priest, But I do know that my pastor can be found inside the church in the pews on his knee's at numerous times morning, noon, evening, night, and the middle of the night, as we have perpetual adoration.
Father does not have even a TV in his home and you can tell he does a great deal of reading, because his homily's are often made around something he's reading in a book.
As last Saturday vigil he told us about a book on the otracities in Rowanda and a Catholic Woman telling her story as a captive and her entire family had been brutally murdered and the difficult time she had coming to terms and honestly forgiving the ones who had murdered her mother & brothers in front of her.
A couple of years ago I was volunteering in the church office and the visiting priest come over to visit with us. He told me that the next time I'm trying to think of a great gift for our pastor, We should buy him a TV. It was during football season and this priest was frantic that he had to find a place to watch the superbowl and could not believe that father had not one tv in the house.
A couple of weeks ago, when another priest was visiting my mother inlaw and I took him out for supper after the vigil mass and he told us that father had NO television in the house too. I asked him if he brought plenty of reading material? He said the perpetual adoration had been a blessing as he can go over to the church and was catching up on some needed time in prayer. 
I can't wait to get started on my praying the hours.
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
|
|
|
Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 734 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 10:02 am |
|
I'm so glad to hear about these priests who pray the LOTH. The priest in my former parish told me his LOTH books are covered with dust. I decided that was one symptom of the much larger problem.
Prayer means so much to me. Right now I am looking into becoming a novice oblate of the Benedictine archabbey in St. Meinrad, IN. They have sent me the application. It will be good to be in a community of people who know the power of this prayer cycle.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
|
|
|
Tina in Ashburn
Member
| Joined: | Mon May 21st, 2007 |
| Location: | Ashburn, Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 272 |
| First Name: | Tina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Roman Catholic, Ukranian Catholic, presently practicing as Roman Latin ... |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 10:53 am |
|
Betty thanks for starting this thread. I've enjoyed these postings. I've never been a LOTHer having worked myself almost to death most of my life with time for nothing else, even eating and sleeping.
Now that I have more time, I've been thinking of the LOTH, maybe this will get me started.
I understand that the LOTH revolves around the 150 Psalms which you would complete in a week [used to be every day], by doing all the prayers. The monks would sing this - maybe they still do.
Think about the Psalms when you say a Hail Mary.
The Psalms also relate to the original 15 decades of the rosary, a the substitute for the illiterate to join in with this cycle of 150 Psalms, a Hail Mary for each Psalm, to be said in its entirety daily.
Those that are familiar with the Brown Scapular of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel might know that along with devoted wearing of this, we also used to have to say the Little Office [Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary] every day. Later, the Carmelites created a "commuting" of this obligation by changing that to the daily saying of the Rosary for those that specifically requested it. And now I believe one only has to say daily three Hail Marys to complete the obligations of wearing the Brown Scapular.
So you see, the prayers and practices of the Church are interrelated. Cool, huh?
____________________
Tina
Arlington Diocese
|
|
|
Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 734 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 11:00 am |
|
Actually they made it even slower now, the psalms are in a one month cycle, not one week. And some parts are left out for brevity's sake. Originally they used to say the psalms all in one day! The Benedictine rule laments those days and says saying all 150 psalms in one week is really lazy! So how lazy are we now, doing them in one month? The difference of course is between cloistered religious and us regular folk.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
|
|
|
Credo Catholic
Member
| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1268 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 11:09 am |
|
Annie wrote: Right now I am looking into becoming a novice oblate of the Benedictine archabbey in St. Meinrad, IN. They have sent me the application. It will be good to be in a community of people who know the power of this prayer cycle.
Annie, would you explain a little what a novice oblate is? And what the difference between Benedictine and Carmelite is? After reading "Story of a Soul" I was drawn to the Carmelite spirituality, but I don't know much about the Benedictines. I will pray for your discernment. God bless
|
|
|
Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 734 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 12:45 pm |
|
St. Benedict was the guy who started the whole idea of cloistered religious living in community according to a rule book and based around prayer. The spirituality is based on the motto "ora et labora," pray and work. You work and the work life is based around the praying of the Liturgy of the Hours and the study of the Rule of St. Benedict. I have been doing both for quite some time now, even before I became Catholic. The Benedictines accept as oblates people from all faiths as long as they live by the Rule, unlike some other oblate orders which require people to be Catholic. Oblates are lay people who live in the world and sometimes are called "third order" members of the order. They are sort of "associate" members.
I like Carmelite spirituality also but am less drawn to it, as it has a very mystical emphasis which is at once attracting and seeming not right for me. The EWTN series on Carmelite spirituality with the Bishop of Stockholm is interesting and well done.
A benefit to my Benedicting involvement is that the St. Meinrad archabbey has over 1000 oblates associated with it and there is a group here locally that meets monthly during the winter months. And St. Meinrad is not too far away, drive down to Louisville and turn right.
The Rule of St. Benedict is available in many editions, it is rather short and some of it doesn't apply to lay people out in the world but most of it has to do with interpersonal relations in community and it is a great help in dealing with "difficult" people. I have the red covered paper edition from the press in Collegeville, MN.
I will have to mention in my application that I was first really attracted to the Benedictines and the way of life by reading all the Cadfael novels in chronological order one long winter! I began then to consider what that way of life would mean to me in this modern age. I'm sorry that culture no longer exists and has been replaced by secular social service organizations. Much has been lost in the world through secularization.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
|
|
|
Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 734 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 12:47 pm |
|
| Oh, I forgot to mention that there is a year novitiate before you become an oblate and the oblation is renewable from year to year.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
|
|
|
Credo Catholic
Member
| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1268 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 02:47 pm |
|
| Thanks Annie, I always enjoy your comments, they are thoughtful, studied and sort of productive to me. Would you be able to organize this life around your present work, or would you take on work given to you by the order? Sorry for all the questions. I know someone who is a 3rd order Franciscan, and I always wondered what that meant!
|
|
|
Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 734 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 04:15 pm |
|
| I would stay a lay person with my regular job (database building at a big company). You only work for the order if you are a consecrated religious and live in a monastery. I would meet with other oblates locally and get spiritual direction from somebody at the archabbey and occasionally go down there for weekend programs or something. It will be nice to hear the office sung as it is supposed to rather than just mumbled alone by me! They have a nice liturgical music resource, they have published things on how to do chant, etc. I think they also have CDs you can get.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
|
|
|
Annie
Banned
| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 734 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 04:16 pm |
|
Credo Catholic wrote: Thanks Annie, I always enjoy your comments, they are thoughtful, studied and sort of productive to me.
Thank you, I like to be useful as well as decorative.
____________________
Annie
Ora et labora
|
|
|
Credo Catholic
Member
| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1268 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 04:30 pm |
|
| And you have a sly sense of humor I appreciate!
|
|
|
BettyBoopToo
Member
| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Camas/Washougal, Washington USA |
| Posts: | 538 |
| First Name: | Betty | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Fist Baptist/Calvary Babtist/Secular Confusion/ Roman Catholic |
| Status: |
Offline
|
|
Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 04:51 pm |
|
Tina in Ashburn wrote: Betty thanks for starting this thread. I've enjoyed these postings. I've never been a LOTHer having worked myself almost to death most of my life with time for nothing else, even eating and sleeping.
Now that I have more time, I've been thinking of the LOTH, maybe this will get me started.
I understand that the LOTH revolves around the 150 Psalms which you would complete in a week [used to be every day], by doing all the prayers. The monks would sing this - maybe they still do.
Think about the Psalms when you say a Hail Mary.
The Psalms also relate to the original 15 decades of the rosary, a the substitute for the illiterate to join in with this cycle of 150 Psalms, a Hail Mary for each Psalm, to be said in its entirety daily.
Those that are familiar with the Brown Scapular of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel might know that along with devoted wearing of this, we also used to have to say the Little Office [Little Office of the Blessed Virgin Mary] every day. Later, the Carmelites created a "commuting" of this obligation by changing that to the daily saying of the Rosary for those that specifically requested it. And now I believe one only has to say daily three Hail Marys to complete the obligations of wearing the Brown Scapular.
So you see, the prayers and practices of the Church are interrelated. Cool, huh?
Tina
Thanks for adding the additional explainations for the brown scapular. I was not aware of the Hail Mary's.
I had read in a book on St. Luis Demonfort about the History of the Rosary and had completly forgot about the relationship of the psalms. It's always very interesting to learn of the history of where & when & Why for each of these devotions.
I cannot wait to get started praying the hours.
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
|
|
|
CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5080 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
| Status: |
Online
|
|
Posted: Tue Jul 10th, 2007 10:40 pm |
|
Annie wrote: Thank you, I like to be useful as well as decorative.
Gee, that describes me perfectly! 
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
|
|
|
