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EMarshallBuckles
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | Rockville (Near Richmond), Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 616 |
| First Name: | Marshall | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian Church,Episcopal Church,Baptist denomination,learning about RCC |
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Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 10:02 pm |
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Something that learned Biblical scholar, theologian and computer geek CajunRick said in another post reminded me of a question I have had. Well, two questions actually. First, in the protestant churches, when we say the Lord's Prayer (also known as the "Our Father"), we get to the "deliver us from evil part", then we add on "...for thine is the Kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen", however, our Roman Catholic brothers and sisters stop at the "deliver us from evil". Of course, I realize that the scriptures quote Jesus as praying the Catholic version so I am guess that is the reason why Catholics pray the "Our Father" as you do - is that correct?
Also, when I watch the Daily Mass on EWTN (which I greatly enjoy and always find inspiring, even at 8 AM when I am still groggy having usually just awakened), I don't recall hearing them use the "Lord's Prayer". A couple of years ago, another Christian network used to carry the Mass from the Cathhedral in Scranton, PA, and, as I recall, they did use the "Lord's Prayer". Wonder why some Catholic Mass services would use the "Lord's Prayer" and why some would not?
Well, thank you all for any learned comments which you may have about this! 
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Kim M.
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| Joined: | Mon Feb 11th, 2008 |
| Location: | Georgia USA |
| Posts: | 442 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Assembly of God, Church of God, Assembly again, PCA, ... |
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Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 10:13 pm |
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Here's a wiki page about the Lord's Prayer:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord's_Prayer
____________________
"A joyful heart is the health of the body, but a depressed spirit dries up the bones." Proverbs 17:22
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1962 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Feb 19th, 2008 10:27 pm |
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Marshall, your first question works out like this:
The doxology (“For thine is the kingdom…”) is an ancient liturgical addition to the biblical version of the Lord’s Prayer. That is, this was the way it was said in the Mass in certain regions. It dates back at least to the third century. As a result of this usage, some Greek manuscripts added it to the Lord’s Prayer passage in Matthew.
Now in the 16th century, when Protestantism began, the doxology was no longer being used liturgically. The Protestants, wishing to be “anything but Catholic,” chose to use the doxology because they found it in some old Greek manuscripts. So, ironically, Catholics today use the biblical form in private prayer while the Protestants use the Catholic liturgical form — which, incidentally, was recently restored in slightly modified form in the ordinary form of the Mass in the Latin Rite.
Regarding your second question: Since the Lord’s Prayer is an integral part of every Mass, it is always said. What may have happened, given that the EWTN Masses use Latin for the people’s parts (correct and proper according to the strict usage of the ordinary form), is that the Lord’s Prayer is being said in Latin, whereas you were listening for it in English.
David
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DrDave
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| Joined: | Mon Nov 6th, 2006 |
| Location: | Mildura, Australia |
| Posts: | 223 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle - Lapsed - Renewed Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 01:14 am |
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Hey Marshall, try to listen out for ....
Pater noster, qui es in cælis:
sanctificétur nomen tuum;
advéniat regnum tuum;
fiat volúntas tua, sicut in cælo, et in terra.
Panem nostrum cotidiánum da nobis hódie;
et dimítte nobis débita nostra, sicut et nos dimíttimus debitóribus nostris;
et ne nos indúcas in tentatiónem;
sed líbera nos a malo.
Regards Doc
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EMarshallBuckles
Member
| Joined: | Mon Nov 19th, 2007 |
| Location: | Rockville (Near Richmond), Virginia USA |
| Posts: | 616 |
| First Name: | Marshall | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Christian Church,Episcopal Church,Baptist denomination,learning about RCC |
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Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 01:41 am |
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Thank you all for your replies! I'll print out Doc's Latin version of the prayer and keep a sharp ear out for it when I next watch the Daily Mass! My brother had mentioned that his church, St. Anne's Catholic Church, in Bristol, Virginia is starting some Latin classes which they are encouraging parishioners to attend. Maybe I should start learning some of the "church Latin" myself! Daggone, learning about the Catholic Church is starting to "strain my brain":?, ha, ha!  And I thought it was hard enough to remember to say "debts" instead of "tresspasses" at the little Presbyterian Church we have been visiting lately!
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Pani Rose
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| Joined: | Fri Oct 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Irondale, Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 473 |
| First Name: | Rose | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Ruthenian Byzantine in a Melkite Greek Catholic Parish, raised ... |
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Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 03:41 am |
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Also, on EWTN during the Mass the Our Father is sung.
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Annie
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| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 734 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 01:51 pm |
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| The people in Catholic churches actually say the final doxology in the Lord's Prayer but after the priest has another verse to pray. Then we say, "for the Kingdom, the power and the glory are yours, now and forever, Amen." It's interesting to watch people during this prayer because sometimes when the priest is praying the people come out of their folded hands prayer posture and lean on the pews and keep leaning as they say the doxology instead of acting like it is all one big prayer, all in one piece. It's a prayer until that "Amen."
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Annie
Ora et labora
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MichaelStEdmund
Member
| Joined: | Fri Dec 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 98 |
| First Name: | Michael | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Convert from pentacostal/charismatic/holiness background |
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Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 03:47 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote:
Marshall, your first question works out like this:
The doxology (“For thine is the kingdom…”) is an ancient liturgical addition to the biblical version of the Lord’s Prayer. That is, this was the way it was said in the Mass in certain regions. It dates back at least to the third century. As a result of this usage, some Greek manuscripts added it to the Lord’s Prayer passage in Matthew.
Now in the 16th century, when Protestantism began, the doxology was no longer being used liturgically. The Protestants, wishing to be “anything but Catholic,” chose to use the doxology because they found it in some old Greek manuscripts. So, ironically, Catholics today use the biblical form in private prayer while the Protestants use the Catholic liturgical form — which, incidentally, was recently restored in slightly modified form in the ordinary form of the Mass in the Latin Rite.
Regarding your second question: Since the Lord’s Prayer is an integral part of every Mass, it is always said. What may have happened, given that the EWTN Masses use Latin for the people’s parts (correct and proper according to the strict usage of the ordinary form), is that the Lord’s Prayer is being said in Latin, whereas you were listening for it in English.
David
A form of the doxology is attached to the Lord's Prayer in the Didache, which dates back to the early second century, if not even apostolic times:
Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name;
Thy kingdom come;
Thy will be done, as in heaven, so also on earth;
give us this day our daily bread;
and forgive us our debt, as we also forgive our debtors;
and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one;}
for Thine is the power and the glory for ever and ever.
____________________
"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 5253 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Wed Feb 20th, 2008 05:27 pm |
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MichaelStEdmund wrote: David W. Emery wrote:
The doxology (“For thine is the kingdom…”) is an ancient liturgical addition to the biblical version of the Lord’s Prayer. That is, this was the way it was said in the Mass in certain regions. It dates back at least to the third century. As a result of this usage, some Greek manuscripts added it to the Lord’s Prayer passage in Matthew.
A form of the doxology is attached to the Lord's Prayer in the Didache, which dates back to the early second century, if not even apostolic times:
Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name;
Thy kingdom come;
Thy will be done, as in heaven, so also on earth;
give us this day our daily bread;
and forgive us our debt, as we also forgive our debtors;
and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one;}
for Thine is the power and the glory for ever and ever.
The Didache is a liturgical manual. As David said, it is a liturgical addition (i.e., "Tradition") that was added into scripture at a later date. So Protestants, in their sola scriptura purity, are actually taking an addition to scripture based on Church Tradition and adding it to their scriptural prayer!
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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MichaelStEdmund
Member
| Joined: | Fri Dec 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | USA |
| Posts: | 98 |
| First Name: | Michael | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Convert from pentacostal/charismatic/holiness background |
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Posted: Thu Feb 21st, 2008 04:41 am |
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CajunRick wrote: MichaelStEdmund wrote: David W. Emery wrote:
The doxology (“For thine is the kingdom…”) is an ancient liturgical addition to the biblical version of the Lord’s Prayer. That is, this was the way it was said in the Mass in certain regions. It dates back at least to the third century. As a result of this usage, some Greek manuscripts added it to the Lord’s Prayer passage in Matthew.
A form of the doxology is attached to the Lord's Prayer in the Didache, which dates back to the early second century, if not even apostolic times:
Our Father, which art in heaven, hallowed be Thy name;
Thy kingdom come;
Thy will be done, as in heaven, so also on earth;
give us this day our daily bread;
and forgive us our debt, as we also forgive our debtors;
and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one;}
for Thine is the power and the glory for ever and ever.
The Didache is a liturgical manual. As David said, it is a liturgical addition (i.e., "Tradition") that was added into scripture at a later date. So Protestants, in their sola scriptura purity, are actually taking an addition to scripture based on Church Tradition and adding it to their scriptural prayer!
Absolutely. I was just trying to help that point along. Not that it needed it, but there you go.
____________________
"Faith seeking understanding" - St. Anselm of Canterbury.
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