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Free
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| First Name: | Jane | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Gnostic, non-demoninational, Catholic |
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Posted: Mon Feb 25th, 2008 08:20 pm |
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First of all, please pray for me. The priest's homily yesterday upset me deeply, and I need to discern if it's because of hypersensitivity on my part due to my background, or a real danger for our parish.
Second of all, pray for my priest. Our priest practices Christian Meditation and feels he must defend this practice often in his homilies. Yesterday, he described in more detail his practice. Some of the words he used in his defensive homily set off alarm bells in me: Ashram, mantra, yoga, guided imagery and also pronouncements of the importance of "emptying oneself" and the necessity of "exploring the dark" in order "to bring it to the light." Honestly, I never expected to hear any of those words from my dark past proclaimed as good things in the Catholic Church.
To be received into the Catholic Church a year ago gave me a great sense of security, and yesterday that sense of security was profoundly shaken.
Today I've been looking up articles on Christian Meditation, and I've printed out a Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on Some Aspects of Christian Meditation published by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith in 1989, and also Jesus Christ, The Bearer of the Water of Life: A Christian reflection on the "New Age" published by the Vatican. I will read them after I write to all of you.
I will do the studying I need to do, yet the reading I've done on line today has already deepened my concern, not lessened it.
I FEAR our priest does not know what he is getting into. I suspect many Catholics and other Christians who have never been ensnared by New Age practices cannot understand a person like myself, who visibly trembles to see people in the first stages of this form of seduction.
I'm sure I sound distracted and incoherent, and I am. Please pray for me.
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rbo4u2
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Posted: Mon Feb 25th, 2008 09:16 pm |
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Hello Jane, Your senses are correct. Something is wrong. I urge you to read Catholics and the New Age by Fr. Mitch Pacwa, SJ. He has lots of experience in this area. Also look up Fr. Thomas Dubay's books. He has a number excellent books dealing with this subject, like Fire Within, Prayer Primer, Deep Conversion Deep Prayer. He has one of the best understandings of St. John of the Cross's Dark Night of the Soul. and St. Teresa of Avila. He really debunks the new age movement and many of the practices of some of the new age Catholics.
They have helped me a lot.
Rich
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Free
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Posted: Mon Feb 25th, 2008 10:41 pm |
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I have Mitch Pacwa's book, and a whole shelf of other books from when I was a Protestant. Also, by God's grace over the past several years I have helped my dad and two of his elderly friends get free of freemasonry, a witch get out of wicca, and three people get out of Kundalini yoga. I've also helped walk a number of other people out of various bondages, using two excellent Protestant programs: Cleansing Stream, and Steps to Freedom in Christ.
Thanks for suggesting Father Dubay's books; I'll order some. I read on line that Johnette Benkovic has a good Catholic book on New Age junk with a chapter showing the dangers of Centering Prayer.
Right now I'm about 5 pages into the Letter on Christian Meditation from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. It's deep, wise, and non-compromising. It is restoring my confidence to see that the Church takes a cautionary approach to Christian Meditation. You might find it helpful reading, as well.
It also addresses syncretism, which was promulgated in the PCUSA church I attended -- trying for an ecumenism that linked Christianity with Hinduism, Buddhism and even Wicca. God help us!
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Ali
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 10:49 am |
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Free wrote: Some of the words he used in his defensive homily set off alarm bells in me: Ashram, mantra, yoga, guided imagery and also pronouncements of the importance of "emptying oneself" and the necessity of "exploring the dark" in order "to bring it to the light."
Thinking as I type here (which may be dangerous ) . . .
Ok, that last one about exploring the dark may be a bit much. But then again, isn't that what we do when we examine our conscious. Sometimes our soul is dark. What, specifically, is dangerous with his other word choices? Other than the obvious 
I can see how they would be stumbling blocks to you, coming from that place {in your heart}. I have problems with words or phrases I heard growing up JW. Words are powerful and can trigger something in you. Transport you to somewhere you don't want to be reminded of.
While perhaps the pulpit is not the place to lead the discussion, isn't a deep prayer just another form of meditation? Although my prayer tends to lead off track and I find myself going over my to-do or grocery list (which is my Lenten goal is to be more prayful with less distractions). If I can get through a hearfelt prayer without going offtrack, I may just reach an empty close to zen state
I can use the guided imagery of the Stations of the Cross to more closely examine how Christ suffered in his death (for love of me) and that can help me to draw closer to Him.
Isn't a mantra just words repeated over and over? Like a short prayer? Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit, as it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be, world without end. Amen. That is what I repeat to myself on bad days.
I don't know enough about yoga to know what's bad about it, except in very extreme cases, and nothing is good in extremes. And the positions are hard Or an ashram, except that it was an ancient religious community. We have some of those here in the Catholic faith.
Just thinking out loud, with no real understanding or research behind my comments. I do look forward to a reply or two, and to see what more you have found out, Jane 
Ali
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Tue Feb 26th, 2008 07:57 pm |
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I did a great deal of research on this question recently, as a result of a question that came into CHNI that I had the task of answering. Here is the result:
Centering Prayer, Fr. M. Basil Pennington, Tarot Cards, & East-West Religious Syncretism (+ Discussion)
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Feb 27th, 2008 01:56 am |
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About a year and a half ago I addressed a similar question on the forum. Click here.
David
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Free
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Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 04:02 pm |
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I've studied the documents I mentioned, and I am glad to see that the magisterium of the Church is fully aware of the dangers of using the techniques from Transcendental Meditation, Yoga, Zen and a host of other methods of meditation that come from traditions seeking truth, but which have not yet found the fullness of Truth in Jesus Christ. Moreover, they caution against using any technique to "find God," making it more of an effort on our part, instead of a glad reception of a gift offered to us by the Father. In the Letter to the Bishops of the Catholic Church on Some Aspects of Christian Meditation it says "The love of God, the sole object of Christian contemplation, is a reality which cannot be 'mastered' by any method or technique....We should allow God to decide the way he wishes to have us participate in his love."
The oddest thing is that we have possessed truly Christian meditation for over two thousand years, both in the Eastern and Western regions of the Church. So why call something that depends on non-Christian techniques and vocabulary Christian Meditation? I say this seems odd, but that is while I'm thinking as a Christian. It is not odd to those whose purpose is to undermine Christianity. The document Jesus Christ the Bearer of the Water of Life says it very plainly: "It must never be forgotten that many of the movements which have fed the New Age are explicitly anti-Christian." (p.35)
In my own prayerful meditation this week, I went from feeling shaky and insecure to reassured, yet cautious. As I say, the magisterium of the Church is aware of the dangers, but many/most people in the Church are not. And as the document Jesus Christ the Bearer of the Water of Life points out, "It must unfortunately be admitted that there are too many cases where Catholic centres of spirituality are actively involved in diffusing New Age religiosity in the Church." On the same page (37) further down, it says: "Many people are convinced that there is no harm in 'borrowing' from the wisdom of the East, but the example of Transcendental Meditation should make Christians cautious about the prospect of committing themselves unknowingly to another religion (in this case, Hinduism), despite what TM's promoters claim about its religious neutrality. There is no problem with learning how to meditate, but the object or content of the exercise clearly determines whether it relates to the God revealed by Jesus Christ, to some other revelation, or simply to the hidden depths of the self."
I looked at a couple of websites of Catholics promoting this form of Christian meditation that uses techniques and vocabulary from Hinduism, and one of their stated goals is to be able to worship with people of other faiths, meaning Hindus. Their idea of ecumenism is really syncretism. In my view, if they want to worship with people of other faiths, do what we do with other non-believers: bless them with the kindness of Christ, teach them that he is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and by God's grace those people of other faiths may someday join us at the altar in the one, true faith, revealed to us in Jesus Christ.
I struggled with what to say in this message, especially in the light of the purposes of this forum, which is to aid people who are considering the Catholic Church. I imagine there are some who, like myself, have been caught up in other spiritualities and maybe who have tried Protestant churches where they have sadly observed the inroads made into them by the New Age mindset. Maybe there are some who, like me, have heard a Catholic priest promote Christian Meditation with its mantras, ashrams and so forth, and are wondering if the Catholic Church is also dissolving into the New Age blur. One thing I want to say loudly and clearly is to believe the words of Jesus when he said the gates of hell will not prevail against his Church. Maybe the Protestant and non-denominational churches will be neutralized, but through it all, Christ's one, holy Catholic and apostolic Church will remain.
The true New Age began with Jesus of Nazareth, and the present so-called New Age Movement is but a counterfeit of the evil one. "Let us fix our eyes on Jesus."
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 08:15 pm |
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Jane, your conclusion is sensible and sound. Let us pray that others seeking to move closer to God will see the pitfalls of syncretism. The question remains as to what is acceptable, tried and true in the realm of true Christian meditation. Many readers, I am sure, can benefit from a more positive approach. A few suggestions were made above, and I heartily recommend them. Here are a couple of others:
The Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius of Loyola. This is the classic text on how to do mental prayer the Christian way. Numerous editions available.
The Ways of Mental Prayer by Dom Vitalis Lehodey, TAN Books & Publishers. This is a book that helped me back in the day. It steps you through each kind of prayer — vocal, mental, affective, contemplative, etc., with a special emphasis on the mental form. It covers both nuts and bolts and spiritual counsel.
A third book may be of use to those who have mastered the nuts and bolts and need some solid spiritual guidance. It is Difficulties in Mental Prayer by Dom Eugene Boylan. Several editions are available.
David
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Hidden One
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Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 08:22 pm |
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In addition to what David said, I'd add The Way of Perfection by St. teresa of Avila, which treats extensively of prayer.
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cyanheaven
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 01:55 am |
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What do ya'll think about Thomas Keating and Thomas Merton?
Christian Meditation (as presented by these authors and not which can be closely associated with things such as yoga) is one of the reasons i started coming to mass last year. the baptist church I went to refers to themselves as Contemplative Baptists, and litergical at that, and it was there that i learned to pray through silence, listening and sitting before the throne of the Holy One. Honestly this is how I want to pray. especially during Adoration.
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Hidden One
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 02:10 am |
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I'll toss on Thomas Dubay to the list of Thomas's up for discussion.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 04:10 am |
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What do ya'll think about Thomas Keating and Thomas Merton?
Keating no; he’s one of the founders of the Centering Prayer movement, which is based on Hindu meditation and totally inappropriate for Christians in that it seeks not communication with God (prayer in the Christian sense) but a “state of mind.”
This does not mean that “silence, listening and sitting before the throne of the Holy One” is bad. It is, in fact, perfectly acceptable. But Keating’s method is something else entirely, more akin to Transcendental Meditation or Yoga.
Merton: He was good in his younger years. I read some of his later works as well, and some of it was perhaps passable, but his heavy concentration on non-Christian spirituality was, I believe, not healthy. Christians are not, and should not try to emulate, New Agers.
I'll toss on Thomas Dubay to the list.
Excellent. I especially like his book Authenticity.
David
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Candlemass
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 12:54 pm |
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| My sponsor in a 12-step program, who is Catholic, told me he practises "centering prayer", he's been "sober" for ten years, I don't really know what it is or if he is aware of it.
____________________
"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 07:09 pm |
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What do ya'll think about Thomas Keating and Thomas Merton?
I concur in all respects with what David Emery said. Fr. Keating was mentioned in my critical paper on centering prayer, linked above. Thomas Merton helped me to convert. I read a few of his earlier books. Many people, however, have observed -- like David -- that he went a bit too far in his later books, though there is dispute as to whether he actually became heterodox in any way.
There is always the "danger" in discussing other religions, of being accused of compromise. I run into this myself when I defend, for example, Pope John Paul II's act of kissing the Koran. There are many fine distinctions to be made.
In any event, I found the two Merton books that I read, tremendously edifying and spiritually beneficial.
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Didi
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 09:29 pm |
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Johnette Benkovic had a great program on EWTN about yoga and similar practices a few years back. The person she was interviewing was Catholic and had been encouraged to practice yoga by her priest (may God have mercy). She became deeply steeped in tantric yoga and had to have an exorcism. Here's the website of this guest:
http://www.crossveil.org/page2.html
Scroll down to find articles on new age, yoga, reiki, centering prayer, etc.
What most people don't realize is that all yoga is originated from occult practices. The dangers are in the positions themselves (which invite the spirits into the body) and in emptying oneself (without filling yourself immediately with Christ). When you leave yourself empty, you allow yourself to be subject to unclean spirits. The passage in Matthew 12:34-45 addresses an unclean spirit who came out of a man, seeks rest but finds none. Then he goes back to the house from where he came (the man) and finds the house empty. So the unclean spirit brings with him seven other spirits and they enter and dwell there. It is because the man left himself empty and vulnerable that they were able to enter.
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Free
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 10:06 pm |
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I'd like to give you a short update on our parish priest who is caught up in Christian Meditation:
1) This past Sunday while most of us were watching the Pope on television, our priest was visiting the Dalai Lama who visited Ann Arbor last weekend.
2) He is listed on the website for the World Community for Christian Meditation.
3) One man went to confession because he'd experienced some road rage and had flipped off someone, and he was told by the priest that there was nothing wrong with that, and that he did it all the time.
4) Last week a woman decided to attend the weekly Christian Meditation with the priest and described the process, which is Hindu, with the only difference being the mantra used, which was "Maranatha."
5) The Religious Ed. director had reserved a room for a class and was there setting up for the class when the priest came in and told her he was going to use the room that night. She explained that she'd followed protocol to reserve the room, and he said protocol didn't matter to him, he was the boss.
6) In the last homily I heard him preach (Easter morning) in addition to his baiting of the parishoners, and his finding fault with some of them, and in addition to his prosyletyzing for Christian Meditation, gurus, ashrams, mantras etc., some wrong theology came out of his mouth, saying that it was not in God's plan for Jesus to die on the cross.
On this last point, I would like to comment that I expect wrong theology will increasingly come forth from him, because that is what involvement in Hindu techniques lead to -- a turning away subconsciously from the Truth of Christ and Christianity. He will also have less control over what comes forth from his mouth.
As I've mentioned in another thread, I have found other masses to go to where Jesus Christ and his Gospels are the focus of the homilies.
For an excellent thread on the topic of Christian Meditation and centering prayer, scroll up to one of David Emery's earlier posts to the "CLICK HERE." Especially if you think this is just taking place in one parish, or if you think it's not as dangerous as all that, please read David's posts in the earlier thread.
Please pray for the priest of our parish.
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Hidden One
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 10:47 pm |
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Your priest is in my prayers. To paraphrase some famous saint - possibly St. John Vianney - there is no bad priest, only priests who are not prayed for enough.
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Didi
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Posted: Thu Apr 24th, 2008 11:27 pm |
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That is so true -- that priests need our prayers! I often think, who better for the evil one to target than those who bring us the Very Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ? 
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Candlemass
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 01:09 am |
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| They have yoga classes weekly at the church I was confirmed at, I find that hard to believe that your going to be possesed by assuming a certain position?!
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Didi
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 01:48 am |
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Unfortunately a lot of new age practices have crept their way into Catholic Churches, hospitals and retreat centers. Just do a little research on yoga and you'll find out it's not something to take lightly. Here are a couple more to look at:
http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/religion/re0275.html
http://www.catholicculture.org/library/view.cfm?recnum=2927
Quoted from last website:
"To most western devotees, these powers are merely the harnessing of energies and physical laws not yet understood in the west. The majority of holistic energy work practices touted as healing science are all built on a science of energy manipulation based on the eastern chakra system. What we in the west do not fully realize, is that any manipulation of energy is tantamount to the practice of magic -- using power at the service of the will. Utilizing or even simply channeling' these energies sent supposedly by God, angels, extra-terrestrials or the universe opens the yoga practitioner and also the many healers and body workers in the New Age to forces they cannot perceive, understand or control. Surrender to otherworldly guides, gurus or yogis adds additional oppressive influences in the dangerous game of kundalini arousal. The arousal may not only cause long-term psychological burn-out and exacerbation of latent weaknesses but also demonic oppression and possession as Pandora's box is literally opened to the spiritual world. Using the Garden of Eden as an analogy, our spines are like the tree of life which hold within them the potential for good or evil. The serpent power allures us to seek the hidden knowledge and power of these forbidden fruits. True spiritual development, ecstasies and gifts, however, descend from above and are not the result of conscious control. As Our Lord warned, those who try to enter Heaven without Him are thieves."
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 02:47 am |
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They have yoga classes weekly at the church I was confirmed at, I find that hard to believe that your going to be possesed by assuming a certain position?!
St Paul wrote:
Do not be mismated with unbelievers. For what partnership have righteousness and iniquity? Or what fellowship has light with darkness? What accord has Christ with Belial? Or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said, “I will live in them and move among them, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Therefore come out from them, and be separate from them, says the Lord, and touch nothing unclean; then I will welcome you, and I will be a father to you, and you shall be my sons and daughters, says the Lord Almighty.” – 2 Corinthians 6:14–18
Mark, I am not going to affirm to you that one’s physical attitude or position is in itself going to attract demons. What I will affirm is that one’s inner attitude toward demons and their enticements will determine one’s spiritual sins. And if that attitude moves one to assume certain physical positions with the expectation that this will place him in a spiritual position of power, he is likely to fall into the trap set by those very demons of whom he is so stupidly unafraid.
Of whom is St. Paul speaking above? Take a look at that yoga class. What communion does yoga have with Christianity? Just who is behind it? Is syncretism a good thing? Mark, you know about the physical properties of certain substances; you learned the hard way. It’s the same thing with these spiritual “powers” and one’s solicitation of them.
David
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Free
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 09:39 am |
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I would like to add two things:
Why would a person who has received into himself the Trinitarian life of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit want to empty himself? Why would a baptized, confirmed Catholic, fed by the Eucharist, desire to spend time twice a day emptying himself? Jesus said he would never leave us nor forsake us, yet isn't intentionally emptying oneself akin to leaving and forsaking him?
The good news is that if Jesus could rescue me out of the Gnostic heresy I was caught up in, he can rescue the priest of our parish, as well.
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Candlemass
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 10:56 am |
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| I do not practise yoga, though my mom who is Buddist does, and is into many eastern practises, I just thought it odd that that church offers weekly classes for it.
____________________
"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Apr 25th, 2008 11:53 am |
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I just thought it odd that that church offers weekly classes for it [yoga].
So do we, Mark.
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Didi
Member
| Joined: | Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 |
| Location: | Oregon USA |
| Posts: | 155 |
| First Name: | Didi | | Gender: | Female | | Fa | | | |
