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philia
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| Joined: | Mon May 12th, 2008 |
| Location: | United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 16 |
| First Name: | Sophia | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | universal agnostic, marxist, pantheist, marxist again, non-marxist hegelian, atavistic polytheist, ... |
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Posted: Wed May 14th, 2008 01:00 pm |
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A difficult and intimate conundrum.
Ok, as I mentioned, I've never been a Christian. So... the whole prayer thing... is um, very new to me. The idea of praying with ones own words especially (but even being "involved" in those prayers where the words are already written).
And I think what makes it particularily uncomfortable and difficult is how much it reminds me (though evidently it should be different right?) of a totally different thing I do, that I have done at least since I was six.
See I constantly talk to myself. As I am here on the internet I am also talking to myself - but... its not exactly talking to myself. I talk, and I have ...a personality in mind - because that gives what I am saying a focus, for instance, I might have the personality of someone who has particular tastes, particular beliefs, particular values and so on - and I would talk to this personality, and I might be antagonistic to what the personality is - or I might try and impress it and ajust my thoughts and word (since sometimes I talk out loud and more and more I talk in my head so's my parents don't evesdrop) - but basically that personality is like a lense for my thoughts so that I can refine them, it challanges me to think about what I am saying. When I was a kid I mostly talked to the characters in my story books. As I got older I talked to personalities with particular opinions that I had been reading about and sometimes with mythological characters and the like. Sometimes I even used real people who I would never get to meet (I assumed) as the personalities. Basically the way it works is I talk (or think of talking) and then imagine how the personality reacts. But also I censor what I think about in order to give a particular impression to the personality as well.
I guess I ought to quit doing that? Do you guys think it is dangerous? I have been doing this since I was so small though. I can't really imagine shutting up, I am not sure I know how to think "alone". I need a counterpart in my mind to react against or react with.
And I guess where I am going with this is that, is prayer supposed to be like that except that a) I don't really know God and can't really plumb the depths of his reactions to me the way I can an invented character and b) where I know there is nothing I can actually hide so I can't censor my thinking in order to give off a particular impression?
Because if it is I think I have an idea how to go about it, because that seems to be what happens when I try (because I am basically doing the same thing as before but substituting God with all the contradictory personalities I talked to before). But if it is not I have no idea.
Also should it be so ...well, everytime I do that I just flicker between being arrogant and then noticing I am being so arrogant and then feeling like God must know how arrogant I was being and I dunno generally getting overwhelmed by my sense of inadequacy and then getting arrogant again and just flicking between arrogance and this recognition of how I totally do not have the right to be that arrogant.
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Sophia M.
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Annie
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| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
| Posts: | 734 |
| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed May 14th, 2008 02:21 pm |
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It sounds like you have hit upon a way to help yourself "work ideas out." I don't see anything wrong with it in a religious sense.
As far as prayer is concerned, we often feel like we are in the "cloud of unknowing" and "nobody is listening." But our faith tells us that God is always present. The Bible tells us that He knows our lying down and getting up, our going out and coming in and all our thoughts. So even if we pray using "the wrong words" He knows what we really mean anyway.
I, too, was new to prayer. At first I just observed what other people would do in church or at meetings and resolved to pray as they did. Then later I got more confident and prayed on my own.
One handy method to use is to pray using 4 main ideas:
Adoration of God
Contrition for any sins you may have committed
Thanksgiving for the goodness of Creation
Supplication for asking God for things if it is in His will
Remember the acronym ACTS.
Last edited on Wed May 14th, 2008 02:23 pm by Annie
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Annie
Ora et labora
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Credo Catholic
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| Joined: | Sat May 5th, 2007 |
| Location: | Greenville, South Carolina USA |
| Posts: | 1333 |
| First Name: | Marsha | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed May 14th, 2008 02:40 pm |
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| Sophia, you sound very creative and imaginative, and those qualities can be gifts. They can be coping skills. But remember that God knows you are searching for him and he knows your heart longs for him. Whatever words you use, he hears the intention. Do the best you can at the time and that's all God expects of you.
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kimdyuma
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 9th, 2006 |
| Location: | Arizona USA |
| Posts: | 821 |
| First Name: | Kim | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle Anglican, Episcopal /Catholic-04/07/07 |
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Posted: Wed May 14th, 2008 03:32 pm |
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| Sometimes the best thing that I do is go into the church when it is empty, sit and think on the words "be still and know that I am"
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Adopt from your local Humane Society- Please spay or neuter your pets
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philia
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| Joined: | Mon May 12th, 2008 |
| Location: | United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 16 |
| First Name: | Sophia | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | universal agnostic, marxist, pantheist, marxist again, non-marxist hegelian, atavistic polytheist, ... |
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Posted: Wed May 14th, 2008 04:34 pm |
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Wow, thanks guys. Very helpful!
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Sophia M.
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David W. Emery
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Brownsville, Texas USA |
| Posts: | 1962 |
| First Name: | David | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Wed May 14th, 2008 07:01 pm |
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Sophia, I think your approach has merit. Most people do a variation on it.
As to your cycles of arrogance and shame: Over time this should diminish as you delve more deeply into the absolute reality and presence of your interlocutor. You don’t have to impress God; he prefers authenticity, honesty and openness.
Another approach: You have already experienced the presence of God, especially in the Person of Christ, in church and in the Mass. You can use the tabernacle (or the monstrance — the sunburst-shaped receptacle where a host is displayed for Eucharistic adoration) as your focal point and pray directly to him there.
David
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Free
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| Joined: | Wed Nov 28th, 2007 |
| Location: | Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 185 |
| First Name: | Jane | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Presbyterian, Gnostic, non-denominational, Catholic |
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Posted: Wed May 14th, 2008 07:11 pm |
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Sophia, when we are baptized, we go through a minor exorcism. At that point, many of the personalities will disappear. Others you will have to determine to "kick out" to make more room for the Holy Spirit.
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Talithacumi
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| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Eastern Ohio, USA |
| Posts: | 267 |
| First Name: | Cheri | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic - Latin Rite |
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Posted: Thu May 15th, 2008 01:27 am |
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Sophia,
Honestly, it's kind of encouraging to me that I'm not the only one who talks to myself. Funny I should be reading this today. I just got back from sitting in the church and "praying" (venting is more like it). I've been pretty depressed lately, and when I get like that, sometimes I'll sort of lash out at God... kind of like, "How do I know I'm really talking to God? How do I know I'm not just talking to myself? Hello? Is anybody really there? If You're really there... if You really love me, if You hear me, then show yourself!"
Silence.
Then I cry and vent and lash out and cry some more, beseeching and begging, yelling (at least mentally) at God for not being there for me when I need Him most, then crying some more. "My God, my God, why have You abandoned me?" is a constant whine from me. Sometimes I even wonder if I really believe in Him. But yet I know I do by the simple fact that I'm so emotional towards Him. I mean, if I don't believe in Him, then Who am I angry with? Who am I crying out to? Who am I pleading with? Myself? No. I talk to myself enough to know the difference, really. With myself, I don't really expect an answer except whatever response I already have in mind. It's just different. With Him I don't really expect an "answer" right away, yet I know deep down that He is listening and will respond in His own good time and in His own way, even if His thoughts are not my thoughts nor are His ways my ways. I know that He knows that I'm just projecting my anger and frustration onto Him. But He's big enough to take it and He knows I'm not really mad at Him. I know I shouldn't use God as a punching bag, but... sometimes it's kind of like those movies... you know the ones where the woman is lashing out at the man she loves and she's blindly pummeling him and hitting him and he just takes it, and then he takes her in his arms and she finally just lets him hold her and she leans into him and sobs her little heart out and eventually gets it out of her system. That's me and God sometimes.
But I'm probably not really answering your question. Let's just say that the beauty of prayer is that, no matter what you're going through, no matter how you're feeling, it's like David said. God wants your honesty. The beauty of praying to God is that you don't have to refine your thoughts or give a particular impression or fit your speech into a certain type of category or style because God knows you inside and out. You have total freedom in praying to Him. All you have to do is be yourself, no holds barred. It's very freeing, actually, to be able to let yourself go, especially when you're praying by yourself. Sure, in communal prayer there has to be some restraint for the sake of unity and focus - there is a time for everything under the sun. Yet, your thoughts can be free to speak to God in all honesty, giving yourself to Him totally as you are. You don't have to try to be someone you're not. You can be you in all your goodness and in all your sinfulness, in all your joy, in all your sorrow - whatever and however you are in any given moment, that's how He wants you to be with Him - because when you can accept that He can accept you in the totality of who you are, when you can give yourself to Him in prayer totally as you are, He can draw you ever closer to Him so that you can eventually become One with Him as a bride becomes one with her husband (only so much more perfectly with God!) - that's our goal.
Oh, btw, just a thought on talking to yourself. I know what you mean when you say "I can't really imagine shutting up, I am not sure I know how to think "alone". I need a counterpart in my mind to react against or react with." I confess I might talk to other "personalities" in my mind or even out loud if I'm alone, especially if I'm imagining myself in a specific conversation with a particular person or group of persons. I think we all do that to some extent. But more often than not, I find myself talking to God as I imagine Him. By that I mean that I'm only human, and as a human I can only know Him on a certain level, yet the more I talk to Him the more He reveals Himself to me. So I would simply encourage you - and I think it will just come naturally the more you pray and grow as a Christian - to allow yourself to speak to God when you feel the need to speak to another "personality."
I hope I didn't ramble too much as I sometimes have a tendency to do  and I hope I made some kind of sense.
God bless +
JMJ
- Cheri
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“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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philia
Member
| Joined: | Mon May 12th, 2008 |
| Location: | United Kingdom |
| Posts: | 16 |
| First Name: | Sophia | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | universal agnostic, marxist, pantheist, marxist again, non-marxist hegelian, atavistic polytheist, ... |
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Posted: Thu May 15th, 2008 01:50 am |
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No, that was really moving and helpful. If that's rambling, then keep rambling please 
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Sophia M.
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Talithacumi
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| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Eastern Ohio, USA |
| Posts: | 267 |
| First Name: | Cheri | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic - Latin Rite |
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Posted: Thu May 15th, 2008 02:18 am |
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philia wrote: No, that was really moving and helpful. If that's rambling, then keep rambling please
You know what they say! Better be careful what you ask for! You might just get it!  
JMJ
- Cheri
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“We do not want a Church that will move with the world; we want a Church that will move the world.”
- G.K. Chesterton
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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
| Posts: | 783 |
| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Thu May 15th, 2008 07:20 am |
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I drive myself a little crazy with inner dialogue. Sometimes it helps me, but sometimes it is like living with an intense inner critic or some sort of composite of all the personality phases I have ever been through. This is difficult to deal with as somehow "it" knows how much I want to be a good person now, and seems to suggest any endless amounts of curiosities and whims that are quite repulsive or slightly appealing. I am trying to learn when to listen, and when to just let it go. When the inner dialogue helps me think and make good conclusions and analyze many sides of an issue it is good. When it is simply badgering me I need to let it go.
In prayer this may cause confusion, as you start to wonder if some of the suggestions are of Divine origin. Two bits of advice. Do not be too quick to assume some idea that comes to you that feels inspired is necessarily God speaking to you, but also, do not be so hesitant to realize that as you pray God will start to reveal truths to you in ways that will be unique to you.
Just don't jump the gun, but don't entirely ignore something. I am still learning this and have so far to go. Because I imagine a lot of layers sometimes I feel like I get certain whims or premonitions or knowledge to do certain things. I have had to learn to ignore a lot of these, but if something continues to impress itself on my heart and there is a sense of peace about it I start to give it credence. Discernment is key.
But sometimes in prayer, I recognize clearly that I am thinking but, I realize that something Divine is taking place. As we pray God's love and personality is formed more and more in us and sometimes even if it is just ourselves thinking, I like to think that we are starting to make sense. We are receiving encouragement and truth in a deep place in our soul (or have received through earlier graces and teachings) and allowing it to well up within us. It is from God, but in language we understand. God's truth is eternal, therefore, in a sense if you can meditate on the the fact that God loves you, in a sense He is speaking to you as you in that moment are coming to decipher the message. But what is best is when you simply pray to be with your He who loves you more than anyone else could. The peace of just shutting down the voices and simply being aware of God. Putting your mind to rest as it finds something worthy to rest in.
It is also good to talk to God with familiarity and confidence if one is eager to please God and respectful of His holiness and sorrowful for their personal faults. We should be afraid, but not make the mistake of being too afraid of One who wants such intimacy with us as to dwell within us. This is at least a thought I have read from St. Alphonsus.
Anyway, prayer, what an adventure. It is so hard to know when we are really doing it right. When are we hearing what we want to hear? When are we refusing to hear something we need to hear? When are we actually making the right requests? Are we silent enough? Is it better to feel emotion, or is too much emotion a sign of weakness and we need to learn to pray without emotion so as not to become dependent on it. It is after all best to love God not for some prize, but the joy of simply belonginig to Him no matter what feelings may arise.
But what a privilege. The only way to find out is to jump in. Recite some learned prayers, talk directly, be silent. Meditate on scripture. Learn to ignore certain feelings.
Just do not get overwhelmed. One small step at a time and let your relationship with God develop and unfold naturally.
You can se that as I ramble that I need prayer as my mind continually sends me too much information, prayer and abiding in the love of Christ give that information direction and helps being to light what is sanity as opposed to its counterpart.
Brian
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Intercessor
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| Joined: | Tue Sep 25th, 2007 |
| Location: | Southcentral, Kentucky USA |
| Posts: | 1151 |
| First Name: | Becky | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Southern Baptist, Catholic |
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Posted: Thu May 15th, 2008 02:42 pm |
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Thank you, Brian. How you have blessed my heart this morning!
Yesterday at the shrine (nobody else there at the time, had the lights low, except for a spotlight on the Blessed Sacrament) the silence allowed me to hear a beautifully mournful train whistle.
I said, "Jesus, do you enjoy hearing the train whistles?"
You can see that it is probably good for me to be there alone.
Thanks again for this meditation, Brian. It was just what I needed this morning.
God bless,
Becky
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"The perfection of a soul may be measured by the degree to which it does the will of God, and finds its happiness in doing it.... O my God,...the only thing necessary is Your holy will," Divine Intimacy, pp. 15-16 Father Gabriel, O.C.D.
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