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pwelther Member
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| First Name: | Patricia | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Born Catholic, Spirit Filled |
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 09:37 am |
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I am trying to understand how Prostestants see Grace differently than Catholics. The Catechism defines grace as "the free and undeserved gift that God gives us to respond to our vocation to become his adopted children. As sanctifying grace, God shares his divine life and friendship with us in a habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that enables the soul to live with God, to act by his love. As actual grace, God gives us the help to conform our lives to his will. Sacramental grace and special graces (charisms, the grace of one's state of life) are gifts of the Holy Spirit to help us live out our Christian vocation (1996, 2000; cf. 654)."
Most Protestants would not agree with this defination but I don't fully understand how they can reject sanctifying grace and Sacramental grace. How can I understand their positon and how can I explain the truth of what the Church teaches.
Yours in Christ,
Patricia
____________________ Patricia
"Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God." "I am making everything new!" Rev 21:3-5
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susiedear Member
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| First Name: | Elizabeth | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Pentecostal / Evangelical / Catholic! |
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 06:30 pm |
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Dear Patricia, as a former protestant, it was liberating for me to come to a sacramental understanding of how grace is imparted to those who choose to receive. What helped me the most was recounting the number of times Jesus healed physically before healing spiritually. Grace was manifested through physical bodies; it was a physical touch that helped the mind receive spiritually. The same is true for us today! We receive graces physically by hearing blessed words of absolution; we completely ingest the Precious Blood and Precious Body of our Lord; we are marked with oil when we are confirmed; we are marked with water when our bodies are baptized. Protestants only accept water baptism. How can it be that they have rejected all the other physical means of grace when every single one is practiced in Scripture?
Obviously it's a mystery to me as well. My husband, who stubbornly remains a protestant, is starting to understand how grace is manifested physically, mostly by forming an awareness of the True Presence. Jesus touched people when He walked the earth. I pray for the day when protestants will understand that Jesus is still touching people today.
Elizabeth
____________________ But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. St. Augustine
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pwelther Member
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 07:41 pm |
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susiedear wrote: Obviously it's a mystery to me as well. My husband, who stubbornly remains a protestant, is starting to understand how grace is manifested physically, mostly by forming an awareness of the True Presence. Jesus touched people when He walked the earth. I pray for the day when protestants will understand that Jesus is still touching people today.
Elizabeth
I really like the way you explain the physical manifestation of Grace. My husband became Catholic almost 20 years ago but still struggles to let go of his understanding of grace as a one time event that effects only his spiritual relationship with Christ. He see that salvation means that at death, he will lose his body to be like the angels (a disembodied spirit for eternity). What good is the body now because it is just temporary.
He can't understand the Marian Dogmas of the Assumption or Immaculate Conception because he does not understand what it means to be "Full of Grace". He can't explain the Incorruptable Saints either.
Faith is a gift so I keep praying.
Patricia
____________________ Patricia
"Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God." "I am making everything new!" Rev 21:3-5
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susiedear Member
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| First Name: | Elizabeth | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Pentecostal / Evangelical / Catholic! |
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Posted: Tue Jul 3rd, 2007 11:16 pm |
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How did your husband come to the Catholic faith, Patricia? Was he a protestant before conversion? What led him to the Church? And are you a lifelong Catholic? I am a newbie, officially received this past Easter, but my conversion started years ago when I was in Bible college. It was easy for me to reject the protestant notion of grace being a one-time event. How on earth did they come up with that idea in the first place? The ongoing renewal of grace makes perfect sense to me because we are like vessels that need to be refilled. Thanks be to God for giving us our "Daily Bread" -- He knew that we would need His constant presence, His constant touch.
Elizabeth
____________________ But now that you have been set free from sin and have become slaves of God, the return you get is sanctification and its end, eternal life. St. Augustine
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pwelther Member
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Posted: Wed Jul 4th, 2007 11:16 am |
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susiedear wrote: How did your husband come to the Catholic faith, Patricia? Was he a protestant before conversion? What led him to the Church? And are you a lifelong Catholic? I am a newbie, officially received this past Easter, but my conversion started years ago when I was in Bible college. It was easy for me to reject the protestant notion of grace being a one-time event. How on earth did they come up with that idea in the first place? The ongoing renewal of grace makes perfect sense to me because we are like vessels that need to be refilled. Thanks be to God for giving us our "Daily Bread" -- He knew that we would need His constant presence, His constant touch.
Elizabeth
We have been married for 28 years (Praise God). He decided to join the Catholic Church (like you join a Protestant church) when our daughter was one. I would say that he is still coming to the Catholic faith, slowly. We are blessed with two children (now young adults) that love their Catholic faith and are committed to serving Christ. I have come to really appreciate how patient Christ is with His children. Our children's witness in how they live their lives in Christ is a constant call to me and my husband to grow in our faith as well.
I am so encouraged by the faith of our youth and those, like you, that have struggled to answer Christ call to union with His Church. As someone blessed to be born into a strong Catholic family that has never gone a day without knowing that Christ loved me and my family, His family loves me, I take heed to Luke 12:48 "And unto whomsoever much is given, of him much shall be required: and to whom they have committed much, of him they will demand the more."
It is interesting to see how so many accept what they were taught without even regard to what it really means. Pride has a way of blinding us to the truth. Apathy has a way keeping us from looking for truth.
Patricia
____________________ Patricia
"Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God." "I am making everything new!" Rev 21:3-5
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David W. Emery Network Helper
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Posted: Wed Jul 4th, 2007 05:59 pm |
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Patricia, I’ve hesitated answering this question of yours because it seems impossible to provide a compact answer that will explain all or satisfy all. But after much thought, I will offer the following ideas, not by way of definition but simply as an observation.
It seems to me that fundamentally there are only three major theologies of grace: the western Catholic, the eastern Catholic/Orthodox, and the Calvinist. There are numerous variations on each of these in circulation, but only the three fundamental positions. The western and eastern Catholic/Orthodox viewpoints can for the most part be reconciled, as their differences are a matter of perspective and vocabulary rather than real theological barriers. The Calvinist viewpoint is quite different, stemming from John Calvin’s doctrine of double predestination and the resulting denial of human free will, neither of which is accepted by Catholics or Orthodox.
Some mainline Protestant denominations, such as the Anglican and the Methodist, tend to follow (with some reservations) the Catholic theology of grace. But nearly all other Protestants, including both Reformed/Presbyterian and the myriad Evangelical communities, prefer variations of the Calvinist doctrine. Luther’s theology of grace is closer to Calvin’s than it is to the Catholic doctrine. Even Arminianism, which began as a reaction to Calvin’s denial of human free will, is otherwise Calvinist in essence.
My suggestion, then, would be for you to concentrate on learning about Calvin’s theology. It would be the key to most Protestant understanding of divine grace, what it does, how it works, etc. It is the ultimate source of the “one time event” conversion idea, although to arrive there it must be filtered through Anabaptist ideology and the general lack of theological depth found among Evangelicals.
However, there is another element that must be taken into account, especially when dealing with some of the more charismatic or Pentecostal groups. And this is the tendency to see grace not so much as a moral and spiritual “force” but as an emotional influence. Grace thus becomes a feel-good event, a “high,” and it is often sought in loud music and impassioned sermonizing rather than in God. This reduces grace and the gifts of the Holy Spirit to the creaturely level, something that believers can invoke at will by whipping themselves into a frenzy. One cannot tell adherents that; they will insist it is the Spirit of God working in them. But in point of fact, it is idolatry.
Finally, due to the fluidity of individuals and families migrating between the various Protestant denominations without much regard to theology or creed (they being more interested in “feeling comfortable” with a given congregation, its leadership and style of worship, the social services it provides, etc.), the overall climate seems to be one of apathy toward niceties like what grace is, what it does and how one benefits. So the overall effect is that in many denominations, whatever may be their official theology of grace, probably most members are clueless, and they couldn’t care less.
Unfortunately, Catholics these days aren’t much better than this. Many of them may have heard the distinction between sanctifying grace and actual grace, but they haven’t the foggiest notion of how to understand or apply it. We can only hope that, through improved catechesis, things will get better in the future.
DavidLast edited on Thu Jul 5th, 2007 01:19 am by David W. Emery
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pwelther Member
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Posted: Fri Jul 6th, 2007 09:30 am |
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David W. Emery wrote:
Finally, due to the fluidity of individuals and families migrating between the various Protestant denominations without much regard to theology or creed (they being more interested in “feeling comfortable” with a given congregation, its leadership and style of worship, the social services it provides, etc.), the overall climate seems to be one of apathy toward niceties like what grace is, what it does and how one benefits. So the overall effect is that in many denominations, whatever may be their official theology of grace, probably most members are clueless, and they couldn’t care less.
David
This is a very interesting insight into the general confusion in the Protestant community especially in the "nondenominational" Churches. This is also what can turn many away from Protestantism and towards Catholicism because there is so much confusion about what is believed. I strongly agree that Catholics must know the truth that has been preserved in the Catholic Church so that they are prepared to answer questions that those seeking a fullness of truth have.
Fortunately, I see a thirst for the truth in my parish and community, especially in both the old and the young. It is the grandparents that pack our bible study groups and the youth that are looking for answers as they try to sort out what they really understand about what the Church teaches. My own college aged children are frequently sharing with me fresh new insight they have learned from their friends as they study scripture, the Catechism, and Church teaching, especially the Theology of the Body. They are blessed to have so much material readily available in their search for answers.
God has all the time in the world so He is very patient. As I work in our time to evangelize so that my peers will at least start asking questions, I look ahead with excitement and hope to the next generation as they raise their children in fervent faith.
Patricia
____________________ Patricia
"Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God." "I am making everything new!" Rev 21:3-5
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GoodSoil Member

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Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2008 01:22 pm |
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pwelther wrote: The Catechism defines grace as "the free and undeserved gift that God gives us to respond to our vocation to become his adopted children. As sanctifying grace, God shares his divine life and friendship with us in a habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that enables the soul to live with God, to act by his love. As actual grace, God gives us the help to conform our lives to his will. Sacramental grace and special graces (charisms, the grace of one's state of life) are gifts of the Holy Spirit to help us live out our Christian vocation (1996, 2000; cf. 654)."
Most Protestants would not agree with this defination but I don't fully understand how they can reject sanctifying grace and Sacramental grace. How can I understand their positon and how can I explain the truth of what the Church teaches.
I too struggle with this. Most of the Protestants I have known or been would actually agree with most of the Catechism's definition. They see Grace as God's magnanimity, His undeserved favor. Where we are confused by Catholic doctrine is "special graces". That sounds to us like "brownie points" you can earn, so many graces by wearing the scapular etc. That sounds like you can do something to earn them which would render them not part of God's 'free and undeserved gift'. Also, when someone sins and they are 'not in a state of grace' that makes it sound like when God is upset with us we 'lose brownie points'. We would acknowledge that sin separates us from God and lessens His influence with us, but to put it into "units" or a "state" makes it sound like something we can manipulate. We are also confused about the 'treasury of merits' the Cathechism mentions where all the good deeds of Mary and the saints are available for us to draw on. That makes Grace sound like a bank. Catholics say that we can't earn our salvation or God's love, and as I am studying the Church I am learning the nuances better, but actively doing things to get 'graces' sounds like buying or trading to many Protestants. It might be best to describe them as "benefits". Wearing the scapular would always remind you that Mary loved you, it would reinforce the Carmelite virtues of being reflective and still and that would put you in a disposition with God for Him to more fully reveal Himself to us. No magic there. Kind of like eating blueberries is good for your eyes. You aren't bribing the blueberries, the antioxidants just come with them. Protestants would say that reading the Bible every day does good things for you or fasting and other disciplines could help you grow, but they would not make a noun ('growths') out of it. Hope that helps.
Edited to fix formatting
Last edited on Mon Aug 4th, 2008 06:29 pm by
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

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Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2008 08:02 pm |
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I think some of these difficulties can be worked through by achieving a better understanding of what Catholics mean by "merit" and of the different shades of meaning of "grace" in Scripture. The following is an excerpt from my book, The One-Minute Apologist (Manchester, NH: Sophia Institute Press, 2007, pp. 78-79):
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The Catholic system of “merit” is no different from works-salvation
The Church may say it doesn’t teach salvation by works. But Catholics still believe that our “meritorious” good works help save us, rather than the free gift of grace.
The One-Minute Apologist Says:
In the Catholic view, our meritorious actions do indeed contribute to our salvation. But they do not do so independently of God's freely given grace; in fact, to be efficacious they must be entirely caused, preceded by, and “soaked in” God’s grace. No good work is possible unless God acts in us first. Merit is God “crowning his own gifts,” as the great Church father St. Augustine put it. This is not works-salvation, but grace responding to grace.
The Bible often indicates a reward for our actions (done only in God’s grace). This is what Catholics mean by “merit” (emphases added):
Matthew 5:11-12: “’Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so men persecuted the prophets who were before you.’” (cf. Mk. 9:41; Jas. 1:12; Rev. 2:10, 3:11-12)
Matthew 6:3-4: “But when you give alms, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your alms may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you.” (cf. 6:5-6,16-18; 10:41-42)
[not in my book; added presently]
Matthew 19:29: “’And every one who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or lands, for my name's sake, will receive a hundredfold, and inherit eternal life.’” (cf. 19:21)
Mark 10:29-30: “Jesus said, ’Truly, I say to you, there is no one who has left house or brothers or sisters or mother or father or children or lands, for my sake and for the gospel, who will not receive a hundredfold now in this time, houses and brothers and sisters and mothers and children and lands, with persecutions, and in the age to come eternal life.’”
[not in my book; added presently]
Luke 6:38: “’give, and it will be given to you; good measure, pressed down, shaken together, running over, will be put into your lap. For the measure you give will be the measure you get back.’” (cf. 6:35; Col. 3:23-24)
1 Corinthians 3:6-9: “I planted, Apol'los watered, but God gave the growth. So neither he who plants nor he who waters is anything, but only God who gives the growth. He who plants and he who waters are equal, and each shall receive his wages according to his labor. For we are God's fellow workers; you are God's field, God's building.” (cf. 3:14; 2 Cor. 9:6; 2 Tim. 4:8)
Ephesians 6:8: “knowing that whatever good any one does, he will receive the same again from the Lord, whether he is a slave or free.” (cf. Matt. 16:27)
[edited out of the book, for space's sake]
Hebrews 10:35: “Therefore do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.” (cf. 6:10; Matt. 20:4; 2 John 8)
Hebrews 11:6: “And without faith it is impossible to please him. For whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.” (cf. 1 Cor. 9:24-27)
(See also, the Catechism, #2008-2011)
A Protestant Might Further Object:
But Catholics often speak in terms of having to “earn” heaven. Does this not imply a system of rewards and punishments based on what man does, not what God does in freely offering us the grace of salvation won by Jesus Christ on the Cross?
The One-Minute Apologist Says:
Don't draw conclusions based on the mere use of words like "earn" and "merit." These are understood in the larger context of Catholic teaching on the universal necessity of God's grace for every good action on the part of man.
This is a classic case of confusion stemming from equivocal terminology. These words are always meant to signify our cooperation with God, not our own “goodness." They refer not to man’s “earning” heaven as if by right, according to some standard of justice, but by gift, according to the rewards God has promised us – rewards infinitely greater than our token actions deserve.
Many Protestants deride the idea that we could “cooperate” with God at all; yet the Bible clearly teaches that we must do so (by His grace) in order to attain final salvation (see 1 Corinthians 3:9 above; also Mark 16:20: “And they went forth and preached everywhere, while the Lord worked with them”). Another verse from St. Paul expresses the thought perfectly:
2 Corinthians 6:1: “Working together with him, then, we entreat you not to accept the grace of God in vain.”
If the Holy Spirit inspires, prompts, initiates our good works, leading to merit, how then can it be said that they “originate” with us? Catholics contend that human beings, enabled by grace, can cooperate with God: an explicit, undeniable, biblical, Pauline doctrine. God begins the process, and then we also participate in it.
With regard to the condition of salvation, it may be remembered that I allow, not only faith, but likewise holiness or universal obedience, to be the ordinary condition of final salvation.
(A Farther Appeal, 1745, Works, London: 1831, VIII, 68 ff.)
God works in you - therefore you must work. You must work together with Him, or He will cease working.
(Working Out Our Own Salvation, 1788, Works, VI, 511 ff.)
John Wesley (founder of Methodism) * * * * *
(no longer from my book now)
There is also a "quantitative" aspect of grace that appears in Scripture. Grace is possessed in different measure by different believers:
Acts 4:33 And with great power the apostles gave their testimony to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and great grace was upon them all.
Romans 5:20 Law came in, to increase the trespass; but where sin increased, grace abounded all the more,
Romans 6:1 What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound?
Ephesians 4:7: But grace was given to each of us according to the measure of Christ's gift.
James 4:6 But he gives more grace; therefore it says, "God opposes the proud, but gives grace to the humble." (1 Peter 5:5 also cites this saying)
2 Peter 1:2 May grace and peace be multiplied to you . . .
2 Peter 3:18: But grow in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. . . .
Last edited on Tue Aug 5th, 2008 04:36 pm by Dave Armstrong
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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GoodSoil Member

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Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2008 08:09 pm |
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| Thanks Dave!
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

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Posted: Mon Aug 4th, 2008 08:44 pm |
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| You're most welcome.
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Dave Armstrong Network Apologist

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Posted: Tue Aug 5th, 2008 04:34 pm |
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| I added Matthew 6:3-4 and Mark 10:29-30 to the original post.
____________________ I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 2000+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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