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RCWarrior
Banned
| Joined: | Tue Mar 20th, 2007 |
| Location: | Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 105 |
| First Name: | stefany | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | I am a Devout Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Nov 9th, 2007 03:51 pm |
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TotusTuus, what is it you don't get here??? Medjugorgie isn't approved BECAUSE SHE IS STILL APPEARING THERE. These are the rules of the church, for if the visionaries have said She has said goodbye forever, there and only then would the investigation be started..
For someone who supports Medjugorgie, you certainly fool me..
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I know God won't give me anything I can't handle; I just wish he didn't trust me so much---Mother Teresa
If you invoke The Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you----St. John Vianney
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RCWarrior
Banned
| Joined: | Tue Mar 20th, 2007 |
| Location: | Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 105 |
| First Name: | stefany | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | I am a Devout Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Nov 9th, 2007 04:13 pm |
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Excuse me but I stand firmly about everything I say and it is the truth.
Open a Protestant Bible, and you will find seven complete books, that is seven books fewer than there are in the Catholic Bible, and seven fewer than there were in every collection and catalogue of Holy Scripture from the forth to the sixteenth century. I could name them if you'd like.
What surprises us is the audacity of the man that could cooly change by stroke of the pen a fundamental doctrine of the apostle of God, St. Paul, who wrote, as all admitted, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost. But this was the outcome of the Protestant standpoint, individual judgement; no authority outside of oneself. However ignorant , however stupid, however unlettered, you may, indeed you are bound to cut and carve out a Bible and a Religion for yourself. No pope, no council, no church shall enlighten you or dictate or hand down the doctrines of Christ.
And the result we have seen in the corruption of God's Holy Word.
Just like Luther not pleased with St Paul's doctrine 'we are justified by faith', he added 'we are justified by faith ONLY', so it reads in these Lutheran bibles today.
There are quite a few deficiencies in the Protestant Bible, too tired to get into...
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I know God won't give me anything I can't handle; I just wish he didn't trust me so much---Mother Teresa
If you invoke The Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you----St. John Vianney
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1227 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Nov 9th, 2007 04:16 pm |
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RCWarrior wrote: Fatima is a public, prophetic revelation. This stands in direct opposition to the "Fatima is a private revelation" arguement, which asserts that we are not bound to believe the Message because private revelations, (1)
which are by definition unverifiable, are not binding on anyone except the individual to whom the message is given. (2)
Fatima, however, is not unverifiable, (3)
and its not a message for ONE individual. (4)
Its a public message given to the whole church and verified by a public miracle and public prophecies. (5)
And that the message states that the consequences of ignoring Our Lady's requests at Fatima are disastrous for all. (6)
Fatima is a public, prophetic revelation and as such, once the church has examined it and found it worthy of belief, (7)
The message of Fatima is a public revelation; its a prophecy. (8)
The church has tested it and found it to be good, (9)
and we are therefore bound to hold fast to it. (10)
To know about the Miracle of the Sun, countless cures and conversions, and the realization of prophecies, has been tested and found to be true. To know this and yet continue to disbelieve is to put your soul and the souls of others at grave risk. (11)
In Apocalypse Chapter 12, we read the prophecy of the "Woman clothed with the sun", who is engaged in battle with the dragon. This woman is clearly the Blessed Virgin, and could very well be Our Lady of Fatima. In fact, two popes have implied that it is. (12)
Stefany, this is getting very wearisome. Again, I have added numbers to the quotation above and will respond to each questionable claim in turn:
(1) You are absolutely wrong, based on the criteria I have already offered, from no less than our present Holy Father. You continue to use the word "public" in a different sense than is used in the public/private revelation distinction made by the Church. Fatima and all other Marian apparitions are NOT; repeat, NOT classifiable as part of public revelation, as that description is defined by the Church. Sure, Fatima occurred in public (sort of: didn't only the visionaries actually see Mary and hear her words, as I recall?), but that is not what the Church is referring to, is not at issue, and is irrelevant.
(2) The Church does not say that private revelations are unverifiable. They certainly are (to more or less degrees). The Church seeks to verify all such claims, if they are influential enough to receive attention. What they are not is binding upon Catholics, precisely because they are private, not public and apostolic.
(3) No one is claiming that it is. I believe very strongly in it myself. I think the miracle of the sun is one of the most extraordinary and well-attested miracle in modern times.
(4) That's also irrelevant to the public/private revelation distinction that the Church makes. The numbers are not what is central; rather, the nature of the two types of revelation are essentially different, as Pope Benedict XVI explained (as cited above), prior to his pontificate.
(5) That is correct. But that doesn't make it public revelation, which is what you continue to fail to grasp. Public revelation ceased with the apostles around 100 A.D. Therefore, Fatima or anything else since that time cannot possibly be public revelation! That's not just Dave Armstrong, lay Catholic apologist and convert (who has no real authority) saying that. It is what the Church teaches; undeniably so. If you deny it, your problem is with the Church, and you put yourself on a plane with Protestants, who make up their own minds, using the principle of private judgment, no matter what the Church teaches. You act exactly like Martin Luther did in 1521 at the Diet of Worms, by putting your own opinion above that of the Church. I hate to be so blunt, but you continue to write falsehood publicly, will not accept correction, and thus I have no choice.
(6) That may be, and I personally believe it (so have all popes since that time, I believe), but it doesn't make it public revelation.
(7) It is not, since it occurred after the apostolic age. Being "worthy of belief" is vastly different from being "required belief, and binding on every Catholic."
(8) Again, absolutely not. And whether it is a prophecy or not, that still doesn't turn it into public revelation, as the Church carefully defines that term.
(9) That is correct. Of course, the Church has not done so at all as of yet, with Medjugorje, yet you are equally dogmatic, without grounds, about that purported apparition.
(10) Absolutely false. Beware, people, of folks who talk like this. Listen to the Church. That is why she is there, to guide us against such excesses.
(11) No; it is the exercise of a prerogative that the Church allows us to have. Now, it is good to believe, but not required. I have already stated above: " What one can say with high assurance is that a Catholic who doubts even apparitions like Lourdes and Fatima is surely in a tiny minority of orthodox Catholics, and will therefore be somewhat likely to doubt other things that he mustn't doubt as a Catholic." You go too far, however, in pretending that Catholics are duty-bound in conscience to accept the private revelation of Fatima (that you wrongly classify as "public revelation").
(12) Possibly. Doesn't change any of the above teachings of the Church.
Last edited on Fri Nov 9th, 2007 04:21 pm by Dave Armstrong
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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RCWarrior
Banned
| Joined: | Tue Mar 20th, 2007 |
| Location: | Massachusetts USA |
| Posts: | 105 |
| First Name: | stefany | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | I am a Devout Roman Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Nov 9th, 2007 04:20 pm |
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| Dave, I don't appreciate you telling people to "be aware" of what I say. As Catholics, we must hold to this and that is the truth. How long have you been a Catholic? Just curious..
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I know God won't give me anything I can't handle; I just wish he didn't trust me so much---Mother Teresa
If you invoke The Blessed Virgin when you are tempted, she will come at once to your help, and Satan will leave you----St. John Vianney
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Dave Armstrong
Network Apologist
| Joined: | Fri Nov 2nd, 2007 |
| Location: | Melvindale, Michigan USA |
| Posts: | 1227 |
| First Name: | Dave | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Nominal Methodist / evangelical non-denom / "Bapticostal" / Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Nov 9th, 2007 04:35 pm |
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17 years. How about you? If you have been for 70 years, it doesn't make your erroneous statements and misrepresentations of Catholic teaching any less false. A Protestant or a Buddhist could easily determine what the Catholic Church teaches on public revelation by simply looking it up. But you won't accept it. Why?
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I'm happy to offer whatever theological & personal assistance I can. My blog, Biblical Evidence for Catholicism, contains 1900+ papers & web pages (absolutely free) & 16 apologetic books (for sale):
http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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TotusTuus
Member
| Joined: | Tue Oct 31st, 2006 |
| Location: | Alabama USA |
| Posts: | 113 |
| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Cradle Catholic (thanks Mom and Dad!) |
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Posted: Fri Nov 9th, 2007 05:08 pm |
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Sadly RC, you are acting like a counter-sign to Medjugorje. If this is how it's adherents behave, then who needs it?
Please stop questioning people's knowledge or affiliation with the Catholic Church based upon how or when they came into the Church. It is entirely irrelevant. Aren't we all "converts" in the sense of how Our Lady is continually asking us to "be converted"?
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TTM!
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CajunRick
Network Helper
| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4981 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Fri Nov 9th, 2007 05:11 pm |
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Now that I am home from work, I will post the final message in this thread. It will be done so that future visitors to our forum will understand the teaching of the Church without ambiguity.
The Catholic Church defines public revelation as that which was revealed in the Old Testament times and by our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. Jesus taught the apostles, and the Holy Spirit provided them with additional knowledge, so that the apostles knew all that there is to know. They were handed the "fullness of truth" and they handed that fullness to us in what is known as the Deposit of Faith. It consists of Sacred Scripture, Sacred Tradition (the oral teachings of the apostles as reflected in the writings of their students), and the Magisterium of the Church. There will be no further public revelation. The Church continues to study the Deposit of Faith and to make new discoveries, but the essential teaching must be contained in the Deposit of Faith or it is not part of the essential teaching of the Church.
Jews believe that Public Revelation ended with the destruction of the Temple of Jerusalem. Muslims believe that Public Revelation ended with the death of the Prophet (pbuh). Mormans believe that Public Revelation continues to this day through their own prophets. Catholics believe that Public Revelation ended with the death of the last apostle, John, around the year 100 a.d. (CCC 66).
Anything which occurs after that point is Private Revelation, and is not binding on the faithful. (CCC67) The determining factor is not how many people saw it; it is that it was revealed to the apostles by God, and by the apostles to us.
To clarify, if our Blessed Mother came on every television set in the world tonight and told the entire world that on New Year's Day, the earth would stop turning and every individual Christian's skin would turn blue, while every non-Christian's skin would turn red, and if on New Year's Day we all woke up and the world was not turning and our skin had turned either blue or red, it would still be a private revelation because it was not revealed by Jesus and the Holy Spirit to the apostles and passed on to us through the Deposit of Faith.
As a Catholic, I must believe and accept anything that is pronounced by the Church to be part of Public Revelation (that is, part of the Deposit of Faith). I am not required to believe anything that is part of a Private Revelation, regardless of how many people may have seen it and may believe it.
Every single alleged apparition of our Blessed Mother since her glorious Assumption is part of Private Revelation. Every single appearance of our Savior after his glorious Ascension is part of Private Revelation. As a Catholic I am free to believe that these appearances took place, or I am free to believe that they did not. The Church examines the circumstances surrounding apparitions and rules on whether they are "worthy of devotion"; the Church never states as fact whether an apparition actually happened. If the Church rules that an apparition is "worthy of devotion" (as with Lourdes and Fatima), then we as Catholics are free to publicly offer devotion (such as a communal recitation of the Divine Mercy Chaplet). If the Church rules that an apparition is not worthy of devotion, I am not allowed to offer devotion publicly, but I may still choose to believe privately that the apparition took place.
During an apparition, a truth that is part of the Deposit of Faith may be revealed. The Church will then research the truth and, if it is indeed part of the Divine Revelation, it will be proclaimed. An example of such a truth is the visions of St. Faustina and the proclamation of Jesus as Divine Mercy. The apparition is private revelation and we may believe it took place or not. The truth of the Divine Mercy of Jesus is part of the Deposit of Faith, and so the Second Sunday of Easter was declared Divine Mercy Sunday.
I may choose to believe that the apparitions at Lourdes, Fatima, and Guadeloupe (and all other Marian apparitions) took place, or I may choose to believe they did not. I may choose to believe that our Savior appeared to St. Faustina, or I may choose to believe he did not. I am not bound to believe Private Revelation.
And as I posted earlier, this discussion has become personal, and that is not permitted. It ends now.
Last edited on Fri Nov 9th, 2007 08:23 pm by CajunRick
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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