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Lee
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Posted: Fri Sep 21st, 2007 06:17 pm |
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Can someone give me authoritative references (from the Catechism or from an encyclical or a direct quote from a authoritative source) rather than just an opinion about psychic or supernatural knowledge or abilities?
Is there an authortative teaching that spirits of the dead do not walk around in houses opening and closing doors?
Is there an authoritative teaching that a Christian is not given psychic power to be able to find lost things?
And is there an authoritative teaching that a Christian does not have supernatural ability to know what a place looks like even though she has never seen it?
I have a Catholic friend who has a close friend (I'll call Jo) who came to visit her and her husband for a couple of weeks. For about a year after my friend's father died, my friend said she had been hearing doors opening and closing in her father's house during the night for many nights and said her mother (the widow) had heard them, too. When Jo came to visit and stayed at the house, she said, "There is a spirit in the house, but it is not an evil spirit." In other words, she didn't announce, "I have supernatural knowledge," but she definitely acted that way. One night Jo told my friend to just stay in bed and ignore any noises or anything. There were doors opening and closing all night long that night. But then after than, it never happened again. Jo gave my friend the impression that she had done something supernatural to rid the house of this spirit. The next morning, Jo said, "Take me to where the gravel is." My friends said, "there's no gravel around here." Then later, when they went to my friend's father's grave, there was gravel near his grave. So my friend is convinced that Jo is a wonderful Catholic who is psychic. We've argued about this, because I think Jo may sincere or may be a fake, but does not have supernatural power or knowledge from God. Also, Jo repeatedly found things that my friend had lost, the whole two weeks that Jo visited her. I think it's totally false, because in no way is God exulted or Jesus. My friend is just impressed and fascinated about Jo's powers and psychic abilities.
This is not palm-reading, or fortune-telling, but it is claiming to have supernatural, or psychic ability. And I think it's wrong. It does nothing to glorify the Lord.
Lee
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Darlene
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Posted: Fri Sep 21st, 2007 11:09 pm |
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They probably like John Edward Cross Country too. 
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Sep 22nd, 2007 01:27 pm |
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The closest I can find is in the Catechism beginning at paragraph 2110. In particular:
2115 God can reveal the future to his prophets or to other saints. Still, a sound Christian attitude consists in putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence for whatever concerns the future, and giving up all unhealthy curiosity about it. Improvidence, however, can constitute a lack of responsibility.
2116 All forms of divination are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring up the dead or other practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.
2117 All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.
This doesn't seem to explicitly refer to the type of practice you mention, but perhaps others will be able to give more precise information. In particular, David will most likely have some resources. He is on vacation but will probably respond when he returns.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Darlene
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Posted: Sat Sep 22nd, 2007 03:14 pm |
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CajunRick wrote:
Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.
Rick,
As regards what I have underlined, I've always wondered about a passage in Acts. After Judas died, the Apostles had to replace him. So they casts lots and came up with Matthias. How is this different from what the Catechism is saying? Somehow, when I think of this, it bothers me just a little. In looking at the passage in Acts 1:24 & 24 it says: "Lord, who knowest the hearts of all men, show which one of these two thou hast chosen to take the place in this ministry and apostleship from which Judas turned aside, to go to his own place." Immediately afterward, they cast lots and the lot fell on Matthias. What exactly did this casting of lots consist of? In other words, how was it done? Of course, I don't want to find fault with the Apostles. I would just like to understand why they chose this particular method in determining who would be the apostle to replace Judas.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Darlene
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Posted: Sat Sep 22nd, 2007 03:34 pm |
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Ok. I was just discussing this very topic of casting lots with my husband. He brought up the Jewish tradition of consulting Urim and Thummin. There are several references in the O.T. regarding this practice. So then I asked my husband, "Are you saying that the Apostles used Jewish tradition to decide who would be the next apostle?" His reply was "yes." So would you concur with this answer, Rick?
Exactly how was this Yurim and Thummin practice done? There seems to be quite a bit of ritual to it when reading about it in the book of Leviticus.
I do find it interesting that the Apostles would appeal to their Jewish tradition in making such a serious decision as to who would replace Judas. And yet, it makes perfect sense and it brings us back to the fact that the Apostles, did in fact, practice and honor tradition.
Darlene
____________________
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Sat Sep 22nd, 2007 04:52 pm |
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| Wow Darlene, that's a great point. I had never put together Leviticus or the O.T. in relation to the Apostles. I hope Rick or David has something on it.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sat Sep 22nd, 2007 11:08 pm |
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I'm really not familiar with the Jewish tradition, but "casting lots" in this case would be similar to flipping a coin or drawing straws, while the reference in the Catechism is to trying to divine a message from chicken bones or a roll of the dice.
In the case of the selection of Matthias, the apostles chose two worthy candidates, then let the Holy Spirit chose the successor to Judas through chance. They did not roll dice or cast chicken bones and "interpret" the meaning. And there is a significant difference.
There was an election a few years ago in a small town in Louisiana and it ended up in a tie. The candidates decided to draw cards, and the person who got the highest card became mayor. Both agreed not to contest the result, and the drawing was held and the winner became mayor. They could well have gotten the idea from Acts.
This is significantly different from interpreting a message from tarot cards, or reading tea leaves, or palm readings. Attempting to discern a spiritual message from mediums, fortune tellers, inanimate objects, or really anything other than prayer, is superstition and according to the Church is a sin against the first commandment.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Sep 23rd, 2007 01:50 am |
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Lee wrote:Can someone give me authoritative references (from the Catechism or from an encyclical or a direct quote from a authoritative source) rather than just an opinion about psychic or supernatural knowledge or abilities?
Is there an authoritative teaching that spirits of the dead do not walk around in houses opening and closing doors?
Is there an authoritative teaching that a Christian is not given psychic power to be able to find lost things?
And is there an authoritative teaching that a Christian does not have supernatural ability to know what a place looks like even though she has never seen it?
The Church does not currently have any dogmatic pronouncements on these topics. However, there is a theological tradition. Among them is St. Thomas Aquinas, Summa Theologica, I q89 a8:
That the dead appear to the living in any way whatever is either by the special dispensation of God; in order that the souls of the dead may interfere in affairs of the living — and this is to be accounted as miraculous. Or else such apparitions occur through the instrumentality of bad or good angels, without the knowledge of the departed; as may likewise happen when the living appear, without their own knowledge, to others living, as Augustine says in the same book (De Cura pro Mort. xiii). And so it may be said of Samuel that he appeared through Divine revelation; according to Ecclus. 46:23, “he slept, and told the king the end of his life.” Or, again, this apparition was procured by the demons; unless, indeed, the authority of Ecclesiasticus be set aside through not being received by the Jews as canonical Scripture.
Now there are three distinct phenomena that you enumerate: opening and closing of doors (evidently heard but not seen); the gravel and the grave; and the finding of lost things. All of these phenomena involve material things and so are preternatural rather than supernatural. (Preternatural means that these phenomena could have been caused by angelic power or even by human means in the state of humanity before the fall of Adam or after death. None of it required divine power, although God did have to give his permission for it to happen.)
The phenomena you describe were apparently caused by demons (fallen angels). God, angels and humans have no need to cause material phenomena unless they are delivering a message that specifically requires it, and apparently there was no message. But demons like to play around just for the effect and to deceive human beings. If your friend is “impressed and fascinated about Jo’s powers and psychic abilities,” she too is deceived, for Jo has no ability or power. The demons are just using her as a tool to draw people like your friend from God.
And of course, her friend Jo seems totally unaware that she is being used in this manner. She could become entrapped in the “mystery of evil” after the fashion of numerous New Agers, witches and sorcerers who thought they had some power over these evil spirits. Hell is the payoff, you know.
Here is what St. John of the Cross, another Doctor of the Church, has to say in Ascent of Mount Carmel 2.11.2–3 regarding what one should do with divine revelations:
2. It must be known that even though these apprehensions can come to the bodily senses from God, one must never rely on them or accept them. A person should rather flee from them completely and have no desire to examine whether they be good or bad. The more exterior and corporeal these things are, the less certain is their divine origin. God’s self-communication is more commonly and appropriately given to the spirit, in which there is greater security and profit for the soul, than to the senses, where ordinarily there is extreme danger and room for deception. Thinking that spiritual things are identical with what is felt, the bodily sense usually sets itself up as arbiter and judge over them. But spiritual things are as different from what is sensed as is the body from the soul and sensibility from reason. The bodily sense is as ignorant of spiritual matters as a beast is of rational matters, and even more.
3. Individuals who esteem these apprehensions are in serious error and extreme danger of being deceived.… Such manifestations ought always to be considered as more surely from the devil than from God, for the devil possesses greater leeway in influencing the exterior and corporeal part of human nature. He can deceive the soul more readily through this action than through a more interior and spiritual kind.
St. John has more to say about the necessity of rejecting “imaginative apprehensions represented [by God] supernaturally to the fantasy” in 2.16 and 3.13 of the same work. If one is supposed to reject these because they are “incapable of serving as a proximate means to union with God,” all the more should one reject human device and the deceptions of the devil. Again, in 2.19–20, he discusses how “even though visions and locutions from God are true, we can be misled by them,” and he provides scriptural proof. (See below for a link to the work.)
Again, 20th century theologian A. Poulain, SJ, in The Graces of Interior Prayer, Part 4, Ch. 21, says:
Practically, in the case of those who have not attained to high sanctity, we can admit that at least three-quarters of their revelations are illusions.
He goes on to discuss faulty interpretation of even true revelations and gives examples, not only of saints who were deceived (like St. Joan of Arc, St. Gertrude, St. Norbert and St. Vincent Ferrer), but also from the bible, such as Acts 10, where the apostle Peter misinterprets what God is saying to him. In addition, he cites St. John of the Cross (op. cit. 2.19), where he discusses self-deception and misunderstanding resulting even from divine revelations.
To sum up: what Rick cites from the Catechism is still apropos. In §2115, it speaks of preferring “putting oneself confidently into the hands of Providence… and giving up all unhealthy curiosity” to accepting private revelations about the future. Again, in §2117, it says, “All practices of magic or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult powers, so as to place them at one’s service and have a supernatural power over others… are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion.”
Darlene: Your husband is correct regarding the tradition of the Urim and Thummim, the sacred stones by which matters of state were decided, that the apostles used the same basic method. Remember, they were still Jews at this point; their expulsion from Judaism was yet in the future. As Rick says, this was permissible under the Old Covenant because the New had not yet been revealed. Cf. Hebrews 1:1–2 and St. John of the Cross’ famous commentary on it in Ascent of Mount Carmel 2.22. (The Ascent of Mount Carmel is available at this site.)
David
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Lee
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Posted: Sun Sep 23rd, 2007 11:28 pm |
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Thank you all very much. I especially appreciate the references, because, now as a Catholic, I am extremely sensitive to people giving their own interpretation of things!!!!
Thanks and God bless you for all you do,
Lee
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Lee
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Posted: Wed Sep 26th, 2007 01:10 pm |
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Here is the reply I gave to my friend. I just combined and reduced everybody's replies into one short response (see bottom of this reply). She read it, and stuck to her guns, saying that her friend never "said" she had insight or could do supernatural things. She sent me the following e-mail:
I appreciate the information and this stuff that is talked about is not Jo!
If you ever meet her you will see. I was there and I know what
happened – she has never said she has insight into anything or can
do anything. She is a cradle catholic, but I know she found things that
I lost and after her night of praying, I did not hear doors closing in my
Mother and Father’s ole farm house anymore. She took no credit however.
When I told her I did not hear them anymore – she said “thanks be to God.”
So, you have not and cannot hurt my feelings where Jo is concerned
– you don’t know her – I do and have for 11 years now
Here is the information I gave my friend
VISIONS AND OTHER ESP PHENOMENA
2116 All forms of divination1 are to be rejected: recourse to Satan or demons, conjuring2 up the dead, or practices falsely supposed to "unveil" the future. Consulting horoscopes, astrology, palm reading, interpretation of omens and lots, the phenomena of clairvoyance3, and recourse to mediums all conceal a desire for power over time, history, and, in the last analysis, other human beings, as well as a wish to conciliate hidden powers. They contradict the honor, respect, and loving fear that we owe to God alone.
2117 All practices of magic4 or sorcery, by which one attempts to tame occult5 powers, so as to place them at one's service and have a supernatural power over others - even if this were for the sake of restoring their health - are gravely contrary to the virtue of religion. These practices are even more to be condemned when accompanied by the intention of harming someone, or when they have recourse to the intervention of demons. Wearing charms is also reprehensible. Spiritism often implies divination or magical practices; the Church for her part warns the faithful against it. Recourse to so-called traditional cures does not justify either the invocation of evil powers or the exploitation of another's credulity.
1 divination – supernatural insight or foresight
2 conjuring – summoning, calling up, or invoking
3 clairvoyance – seeing what is not normally seen
4 magic – unexplained, supernatural
5 occult – supernatural, hidden, secret
“There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering, anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, for whoever does these things is an abomination to the LORD.” Deut. 18:10-12
“This passage is about the occult. The Church takes a long, prayerful, spiritual look at any reported miraculous vision, in which someone known to be holy, sent from God (Jesus or Mary) has apparently appeared in connection with a message or a miracle. The visions approved by the Church have not ever involved appearances of ordinary people who have died, and the visions have not ever been in response to use of mediums or spiritists or people who seem to have psychic or special powers.
“God, angels and humans have no need to cause material phenomena unless they are delivering a message that specifically requires it. But demons like to play around just for the effect and to deceive human beings. The demons use such things as a tool to draw people away from God. Quite often someone can be totally unaware that they are being used in this manner. And they could then become entrapped in the “mystery of evil” after the fashion of numerous New Agers, witches and sorcerers who thought they had some power over these evil spirits.”
The Church has a theological tradition concerning supernatural visions. Here is what St. John of the Cross, a Doctor of the Church, has to say in Ascent of Mount Carmel 2.11.2–3:
2. The more exterior and corporeal these things are, the less certain is their divine origin. God’s self-communication is more commonly and appropriately given to the spirit, in which there is greater security and profit for the soul, than to the senses, where ordinarily there is extreme danger and room for deception. Thinking that spiritual things are identical with what is felt, the bodily sense usually sets itself up as arbiter and judge over them. But spiritual things are as different from what is sensed as is the body from the soul and sensibility from reason. The bodily sense is as ignorant of spiritual matters as a beast is of rational matters, and even more.
3. Individuals who esteem these apprehensions are in serious error and extreme danger of being deceived.… The devil can deceive the soul more readily through this action than through a more interior and spiritual kind.
St. John has more to say about the necessity of rejecting “imaginative apprehensions represented [by God] supernaturally to the fantasy” in 2.16 and 3.13 of the same work. If one is supposed to reject these because they are “incapable of serving as a proximate means to union with God,” all the more should one reject human device and the deceptions of the devil.
Again, 20th century theologian A. Poulain, SJ, in The Graces of Interior Prayer, Part 4, Ch. 21, discusses faulty interpretation of even true revelations and gives examples, not only of saints who were deceived (like St. Joan of Arc, St. Gertrude, St. Norbert and St. Vincent Ferrer), but also from the Bible, such as Acts 10, where the apostle Peter misinterprets what God is saying to him. In addition, he cites St. John of the Cross (op. cit. 2.19), where he discusses self-deception and misunderstanding resulting even from divine revelations.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Sep 26th, 2007 03:03 pm |
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Lee wrote: Thank you all very much. I especially appreciate the references, because, now as a Catholic, I am extremely sensitive to people giving their own interpretation of things!!!!
I won't give you my own interpretation but I will give you an opinion based on bereavement counseling for a hospice.
Many people can "feel" the presence of a loved one who has died. One old woman told me her husband's spirit was present in every nail and every board of her house, which he had built by hand. The year before he died, when he was 100, he went around the house and fixed everything so that she wouldn't have to deal with it herself. He died at 101, and there was not a loose board or broken light bulb in the entire house. Was his spirit really there? Probably not, but she felt his love in every floor tile. And at night she would feel that he was still sitting in his chair, and it brought her comfort that he was watching out for her. She didn't believe there was anything supernatural or paranormal about the experience, just that he still loved her from heaven. There is no harm in that belief.
God is love, and he who lives in love lives in God, and God in him. Many people feel the presence of loved ones. I believe God sends us those feelings as reassurance. As long as we hold them in our hearts, they are always with us.
Now, that does not mean I condone in any way attempts at communication with the dead, seances, divinisation, etc. But I do believe that those who have gone before us still love us and watch out for us (by the grace of God), and some day they will meet us and take us to God's Throne. And based on my experiences with some 400 terminally ill patients, they will often be present even before we die to bring us comfort and consolation. We will see them and sometimes even talk with them, and then they will take us home.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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BettyBoopToo
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Posted: Thu Sep 27th, 2007 02:50 am |
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CajunRick wrote: Lee wrote: Thank you all very much. I especially appreciate the references, because, now as a Catholic, I am extremely sensitive to people giving their own interpretation of things!!!!
I won't give you my own interpretation but I will give you an opinion based on bereavement counseling for a hospice.
Many people can "feel" the presence of a loved one who has died. One old woman told me her husband's spirit was present in every nail and every board of her house, which he had built by hand. The year before he died, when he was 100, he went around the house and fixed everything so that she wouldn't have to deal with it herself. He died at 101, and there was not a loose board or broken light bulb in the entire house. Was his spirit really there? Probably not, but she felt his love in every floor tile. And at night she would feel that he was still sitting in his chair, and it brought her comfort that he was watching out for her. She didn't believe there was anything supernatural or paranormal about the experience, just that he still loved her from heaven. There is no harm in that belief.
God is love, and he who lives in love lives in God, and God in him. Many people feel the presence of loved ones. I believe God sends us those feelings as reassurance. As long as we hold them in our hearts, they are always with us.
Now, that does not mean I condone in any way attempts at communication with the dead, seances, divinisation, etc. But I do believe that those who have gone before us still love us and watch out for us (by the grace of God), and some day they will meet us and take us to God's Throne. And based on my experiences with some 400 terminally ill patients, they will often be present even before we die to bring us comfort and consolation. We will see them and sometimes even talk with them, and then they will take us home.
Thank you Rick for adding this, as I have in the past experienced some different very spiritual situations with my son after his death. They did not come because I had been conjuring up or calling on the dead and as a matter of fact, I'd not ever even prayed to ask Ryan anything (my protestant past knowledge would not even allow such to enter my mind), only God. They were normally during either a dream or during prayer and each and every time they only led me closer to God and also incouraged me toward the Catholic Church. they all came to a stop during holy week of 2003 just a couple of days before my baptism.
None of it happened due to anything that I did, but was just through the kindness and love of God for a crippled grief stricken mother.
I live and believe everything the church teaches on this matter, but I do know that God can do or send a special situation to help his children along their path.
I think if someone is experiencing strange happenings in their home, as doors opening and closeing, the first thing they should do is call a priest for a blessing and not allow any seductive or evil spirits in their home or near their family. But that's just my opinion.
Betty
____________________
Patience
"Whenever anything disagreeable or displeasing happens to you, remember Christ crucified and be silent."
St. John of the Cross
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