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brian
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Posted: Tue Nov 20th, 2007 12:26 am |
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I have never taken this idea too seriously, but for some reason I am starting to think about it more. Whether or not Rock (and basically most forms of common anspopular music) are bad. Not as in, bad in taste, but as in harmful in some way. Not because of the words, but the music in and of itself.
Somebody was telling me about experiments where people played different kinds of music to plants and the plants grew twice as fast when listening to classical music but died early listening to rock music. Of course, people are not plants, and maybe it was a volume thing. But it was interesting.
I know that music in and of itself has an effect on people. David played for Saul for instance. It also probably effects our heartbeat and probably has other physiological effects. It is easy to observe just how much sexuality is linked with certain types of music. I do not believe that it is just because it is marketed this way, but I think something about a strong repetitive beat has a sort of sexual vibe. I also think that it leads people to rebellion or a sense of aggression in some ways.
Yet, I think that just because people associate this with rock and pop music, that it is important to note that many kinds of music have always instilled powerful emotions and that rioting has happened even after controversial new performances and things listeners were not ready for at a ballet even.
This makes me think that maybe it is just something new and weird that effects people. And that by now, whatever was shocking about rock music is pretty ordinary to most and therfore simple enough.
I also worry that maybe in the 50 and 60's when people were so against rock music and Elvis and all that, that maybe they had a point, but they were so hostile and closed minded that they ended up only adding feul to the fire.
I love all kinds of music. And my usual stance is that most music is neither good nor bad morally, but it depends on what you do with it. What words and actions go with it. I always think that evil can not create but only manipulate or tear apart. Therfore music must in and of itself be holy and good. But, I also wonder if this reasoning is faulty because Satan does not need to create anything for music to be used for evil, he only needs to be able to come up with ways of distorting things that have been created. For example talking is good. But if a person says one word while spinning in circles for 20 minutes, they might go a little crazy. There are ways of making oneself experience harmful things well within what is natural or seemingly creative. So this makes me wonder if a style of music can, in and of itself, be harmful. I am not just talking about for church, but in general.
Some people claim that a lot of what influenced Rock and Roll was borrowed from African drumming patterns that were used while seeeking to be religiously possesed.
This makes me want to object that, just because they used it for that purpose does not make the rhythm in and of itself wrong. It is the intent. But maybe certain rhyhms are bound to go along with that effect or more likely to psychologically impair us? I want to say that it is no different than pagan religions that have sacrifices or rituals that may involve similar things to the mass does not mean that we can not redeem and use these things. I perosnally believe that rhythms and drumming in and of itself is quite amazing and glorifiying to God no matter what people intended it for.
I am not saying I have any conclusions here. I am still of the mind that it is discernment that is key, and that if something gives us joy and we see no immoral effect that we can give thanks and praise God for it.
Maybe some musics are more prone to make people struggle with their impulses and fleshly desire, but that does not make the music bad, so much as the indiscretion of the person using it. Yet if some music makes one more prone to struggle with certain carnal appetites, than wouldn't this make it harmful?
Anyway, I am interested in this subject because I teach people music. I specifically teach (and have played and studied for a while) a lot of rock music, and I personally enjoy it but have mixed feelings. On the one hand I see it as fun and teaches people to be creative. For instance, one student uses music to help keep himself out of trouble. It is sort of helping to save his life and family. I also have had great experiences and friendship through this. So, I do not want to come to the conclusion that there is anything intrinsically immoral or harmful about certain styles of music, but I also want truth. I also think of going back to school someday and studying sacred music in case I can help bring more of it into the world.
But for now, I see that I seem to do a decent work for people, yet I fear I contribute to something that is not the most glorifiying to God as possible, and potentially harmful.
Anyway, I do not want to talk about words to music, or music in liturgy so much as more a discussion on music itself. Only mention those things if they help demonstrate a point about the music.
Anyway, I am not trying to endorse any of what I said, and I can not even back a lot of it up at this time. These are just ideas I have been running into.
Any thoughts?
Brian
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Esther
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Posted: Tue Nov 20th, 2007 01:43 pm |
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My two cents worth on the subject.
As I have mentioned in the past I grew up in a very conversative household and church. When I was 12 I moved in with one of the families at my church due to family issues. This home was much more strict then my own (which was hard to beat). They were followers of Bill Garthard. In this organization, along with many other crazy rules, most of the followers would not listen to music with a back beat. And for reasons that you mentioned. Messing with the beat of the heart, stress levels, and so on. Nothing really founded by scientific research. But was religiously followed.
After moving out and living among many different families, I began to wonder why this family followed such unique rules. But my thought on music is, it is always controversial. Beethoven, who we claim to sooth now, was the equivalent of Elvis for his day. I believe the input is important to watch, but the beat? Who is to judge what is good and what is bad? I certainly don't think Beethoven or Bach are bad, but if I was living in that day, would I consider it so?
I guess I feel like there is a difference between not being conformed to this world and sticking your head in the sand. I believe so of the more extreme conservative groups follow the later.
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brian
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Posted: Tue Nov 20th, 2007 03:48 pm |
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I am likely to completely agree with you. However, I suppose that maybe it will be difficult to answer this in a black and white way. Because while I agree that it has a lot to do with subjectivity and culture, I also think that objectively there is a difference of what effect will be created if you listened to a softly played violin concerto or gregorian chant for an hour with varied volume and dynamics vs. what effect would be created if you sat within feet of someone pounding 1/8 notes on a bass drum very loudly while a guitarist made electronic feedback noises (which I actually might enjoy). At some point your argument that it is up to the individual and the times they are living in is true, but I also think at some point there are simply scientific reason why some music might be more conducive to having a negative influence on ones attitude or behavior. At some point it varies from individual to individual and at some point I would think similar concepts and rules apply to all. For my sake I am wondering where it is the former or latter so I know what is a worthy use of my abilities for vocationa purposes.
I also love all forms of jazz, including very bizzarre and avante garde and free improvisatin. It creates chaos at times, but I find it so creative and beautiful and sort of like life itself at times. But maybe this has a negative effect in that it is to much about spontanaeity and a lack of discipline (the musicians are disciplined in the way they prepare, but the music itself is based on a lack of discipline) yet, I want to say that all music is pretty much important and beneficial in some way, and that even this 'uglier music' is actually beautiful if understood and listened to with a different set of values. So I can argue for or against it.
I love that music is a way to express oneself, but at what point is it perhaps simply being indulgent and exposing yourself to dark places within yourself?
Sometimes after really practicing for a while I feel amazing and kind of high, but sometimes I feel like sort of drained and unable to think or come back to reality. It is very nice, but makes me wonder.
Brian
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Flintstone
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Posted: Sat Dec 15th, 2007 10:31 pm |
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| O.K. I'll date myself. Anyway, in my day rock music was when you sat on Grandma's lap in a rocking chair and she sang to you. Things sure have changed since then....
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tedjenczewski
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Posted: Sun Dec 16th, 2007 12:02 am |
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| I just got through watching a TV cast of the Christmas pagent from First Baptist Church in Fort Lauderdale, FL. It was one of the most professional presentations of music and dance I ever saw/heard. The church had a complete stage with sound and video systems overhead. Seating capacity for thousands. There was a full symphony orchestra and a large church choir backing modern singers singing modern sounding "pop" tunes about Jesus and his birth. There were ballet dancers, some supported above the stage on wires appearing to be dancing angels. The songs sounded like normal pop love songs until I carefully listened to the words. It felt good. But I found myself asking: What is this? Is this just updated Gregorian Chant or modernized "high" Protestant liturgy? Is this worship? Or adoration of God? Or entertainment for the believers? Or??? Can anyone offer some perspective on this?
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CajunRick
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Posted: Sun Dec 16th, 2007 12:19 am |
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tedjenczewski wrote: Can anyone offer some perspective on this?
Sounds to me like it was a play put on by a church, perhaps as a fund raiser or even an evangelization attempt. I can imagine some who are without a definitive faith might find worship in that kind of location appealing.
There's a church in my area that advertises that it's services are "an experience". If I want "an experience" I'll go to a movie or a concert, not to church.
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Tina in Ashburn
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Posted: Sun Dec 16th, 2007 01:14 am |
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Brian, I think you are "spot on". Bad music definitely causes bad effects. This is why Sacred Music at the Liturgy has traditionally forbidden strong beats, chaotic rhythms, and unintuitive melodies.
All things in temperance - not to say that exciting music is all bad, but it does affect us. For this same reason, the most perfect music is reserved for the Mass.
Please take some time to listen to the Gregorian music performed in the method of Solesmes. Ironically, the monastery of Solesmes doesn't strictly follow the rules they once promoted back in the 40s and 50s. So you want to look for a recording "in the method of Solesmes". When Gregorian chant is done correctly, it has a meter, but not a strong rhythm. It affects you like the waves of the sea, "breathing" in an out, mild highs and lows. When Chant is done right, it soothes the heart and can even match the rhythm of the human heart. It is very calming and you'll will find yourself freed to think about God.
Theres no mistaking the sexual vibe of some music, Jimi Hendrix comes to mind. Intensifying emotions based on the physical, rather than "raising the heart to God", is anathema to liturgical music. Intense rhythms awaken the lower senses which distracts our higher abilities of reason and prayer.
Brian knowing how intense you can get when you come upon a thought, I'll reiterate 'temperance'. We all enjoy the Irish drinking songs and folk-dancing music. And I love Beethoven's Ninth Symphony. It really winds me up!!
Mentioning Elvis is a good example. I do believe that we gradually get desensitized to the effects of certain kinds of music - he did shock the older generation for a very good reason. But now we think that is all silly because we are now used to music that is so much worse. What this says to me is that we have lost all touch with the culture of even 100 years ago, all those funny uptight people seem incomprehensible to us.
Sorry to use sacred music as an example since you implied you wanted to think about music in general. A model of the most perfect music helps shape your perspective on what's wrong with the music common today.
You are right to suspect that chaotic music causes chaos in our selves and our souls.
This subject is huge and complex - I better stop while I'm ahead. Plus I barely know what I'm talking about. Perhaps you want to look into Musicology and tell us what you learn!!
If you contact the folks at http://www.musicasacra.com/
they can help you find a good recording. They also have a new discussion forum - i noticed one thread is "what is beautiful music?". These folks are really educated and can help with your perspective.
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Arlington Diocese
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Sun Dec 16th, 2007 01:20 am |
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| Brian, I grew up in the day of Buddy Holly, Elvis, Chuck Berry, etc. It was fun music and to this day I enjoy it. I know when people pull up beside me at a stop light, they see a little old lady sitting in her big blue car. They don't know the radio's on a good oldie station and there's a party going on in my mind! But at the same time I was growing up to that, I was learning piano and a huge love for classical music. Now I like it all, like you, even some blues, blue grass, Gregorian chant, John Phillips Sousa, anything that's done well. I'm the only person I know of who actually enjoys Christmas music from Thanksgiving to the end of January. I think you can be discerning and balanced, and stay within moral bounds.
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Tina in Ashburn
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Posted: Sun Dec 16th, 2007 01:20 am |
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Hey Ted, I second Rick's comment.
I think, too, that there's a misunderstanding between 'religious music' and 'sacred music'. "Religious" music can be any song about a religious subject, and might be done in any fashion.
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Tina
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Sun Dec 16th, 2007 01:47 pm |
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tedjenczewski wrote: I just got through watching a TV cast of the Christmas pagent from First Baptist Church in Fort Lauderdale, FL. It was one of the most professional presentations of music and dance I ever saw/heard. The church had a complete stage with sound and video systems overhead. Seating capacity for thousands. There was a full symphony orchestra and a large church choir backing modern singers singing modern sounding "pop" tunes about Jesus and his birth. There were ballet dancers, some supported above the stage on wires appearing to be dancing angels. The songs sounded like normal pop love songs until I carefully listened to the words. It felt good. But I found myself asking: What is this? Is this just updated Gregorian Chant or modernized "high" Protestant liturgy? Is this worship? Or adoration of God? Or entertainment for the believers? Or??? Can anyone offer some perspective on this?
It's common around here for protestant churches to put on special musical programs at Christmas. It's not usually done during a worship service but on a night or few nights during a weekend preceding Christmas. Depending on the size of the church, they can be very elaborate, and at least one church here has to dole out tickets because so many people want to go there isn't enough seating. They have lots of carols, skits and re-enactments, beautiful choir music. Yes, it's entertainment but intended to remind everyone of what the season is really about.
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Hidden One
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Posted: Sun Mar 2nd, 2008 11:01 pm |
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Whether rock music is good or bad or neither, I testify that proper Gregorian Chant
soothes the soul and inclines even the passive listener toward worship. At least, that's what it does to me.
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JillD
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 04:40 am |
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Hidden One wrote: Whether rock music is good or bad or neither, I testify that proper Gregorian Chant
soothes the soul and inclines even the passive listener toward worship. At least, that's what it does to me.
Conversely, when the car next to mine is exuding a strong bass rhythm, an uncontrollable desire to fire a bazooka wells up within me....
Music definitely controls our emotions.
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Ali
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 11:36 am |
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JillD wrote:Conversely, when the car next to mine is exuding a strong bass rhythm, an uncontrollable desire to fire a bazooka wells up within me....
LOL! You do control that emotion, though, right? I don't wanna be reading about you in the news 
Ali
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Parodyonlife
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 12:21 pm |
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Ali wrote: JillD wrote:Conversely, when the car next to mine is exuding a strong bass rhythm, an uncontrollable desire to fire a bazooka wells up within me....
LOL! You do control that emotion, though, right? I don't wanna be reading about you in the news
Ali
God save us.
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Hidden One
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Posted: Mon Mar 3rd, 2008 08:38 pm |
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Parodyonlife wrote: Ali wrote: JillD wrote:Conversely, when the car next to mine is exuding a strong bass rhythm, an uncontrollable desire to fire a bazooka wells up within me....
LOL! You do control that emotion, though, right? I don't wanna be reading about you in the news
Ali
God save us.
May bazookas be forever banned from civilian usage.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 12:17 am |
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Hidden One wrote: Parodyonlife wrote: Ali wrote: JillD wrote:Conversely, when the car next to mine is exuding a strong bass rhythm, an uncontrollable desire to fire a bazooka wells up within me.... LOL! You do control that emotion, though, right? I don't wanna be reading about you in the news
God save us.
May bazookas be forever banned from civilian usage.
I completely agree. Under similar circumstances, I would prefer tactical nukes. However, it is not the car next to mine that would draw my ire. It's the one that stops at the traffic light next to my house at 3 A.M.
Mind you, I would not want to take out the driver, only the car and the radio.
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JillD
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 01:35 am |
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CajunRick wrote: Mind you, I would not want to take out the driver, only the car and the radio.
Exactly. Nothing personal. It's an uncontrollable emotional reaction. Actually, it's strange to observe it in myself; it comes out of nowhere. But it's very real anger that's gone as soon as the 'person' moves their car out of hearing range.
OK, forget the bazooka. If I could blast them with soprano opera full-blast, maybe it would be an even fight. But for some reason that bass line penetrates anything and everything. Nothing stops it.
Actually, I do believe there are (unenforced) laws against it.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 02:41 am |
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JillD wrote: Actually, I do believe there are (unenforced) laws against it.
The only thing more annoying is the 250 motorcycles that battle every Sunday afternoon to prove which one has the least effective muffler. And it's not the noise so much as the vibrations that penetrate the walls and drown out the Saints game! At least in a car I can drive away. How do I escape when I'm in my own bedroom? They tend to congregate on the corner by my house and rev their engines!
Yeah, I would take a bazooka. But I'd aim for the engines.
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Credo Catholic
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 03:42 am |
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| If someone would invent a device that would emit a piercing screech from my car, I would use it when one of those boom da boom cars stop by me. I know law enforcement is spread so thin already, they can't do much about it. But we can surely come up with some tactic that would work!
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Parodyonlife
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Posted: Tue Mar 4th, 2008 03:28 pm |
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A small EMP device would be very nice.
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pamflute
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Posted: Mon Apr 28th, 2008 11:48 pm |
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Brian and all:
I have enjoyed reading your thoughts about music. I am a general music teacher and have students that range in age from preschool to 8th grade. I have been teaching at a Catholic school this year and have been surprised to find how close minded the older students are to almost anything but rap and hip hop. I would like to bridge the gap with them but I have a hard time thinking of rap and hip hop as music especially when there are all kinds of other music out there that they can listen to. I have been listening from time to time to a podcast by Father John Oliver of Ancient Faith Radio about St. Nicodemus book about the soul. St. Nicodemus seems to echo the words of that children's song "be careful little ears what you hear". Music is a powerful tool for good or evil as we all know. I am not as black and white as I used to be about rock, but honestly I never developed a taste for it so I am at a loss to bridge the gap between me and kids I have as students. I basically try to stick to learning how to read music, play an instrument, etc. as it is hard for me to know what else to do with my older students. I would love to have them learn more about sacred music, but they seem to be uninterested. The school does not really have a track record of having a trained music teacher so this might be part of the problem.
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BodRod
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Posted: Tue Apr 29th, 2008 12:32 am |
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Does anyone else remember the warning against playing the rock and roll music backwards? If you did you would get a message from the devil. However, "they" never said who played their records backwards in the first place. 
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mrsbmoo
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Posted: Tue Apr 29th, 2008 02:26 am |
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| I read about it and actually tried it when I was a young teen. You get so many random wierd noises that it doesn't surprise me that some sound like words. I thought you had to use a lot of imagination to hear it.
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Ali
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Posted: Tue Apr 29th, 2008 12:04 pm |
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mrsbmoo wrote: I thought you had to use a lot of imagination to hear it.
Or drugs. You forgot drugs 
Ali
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