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Luke12:48
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Posted: Sun Dec 31st, 2006 09:05 pm |
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I was disturbed by the experiences some of you have described in this area and have never heard of or experienced anything like this. It must be terribly difficult to deal with. I looked for other posts on the topic and noticed the heading for this section of the forum and it said “Dealing with the world, the rebellious self and the devil. What Satan can and cannot do; how to defend against him”
What exactly is it that Satan can and cannot do? He is a fallen angel who has what abilities on his own? What power provokes such reactions? God permits other powers??
How does this all fit with free will and providence? God asks the questions, we answer. Is it not correct that Satan can tempt a person but the choice is still up to the individual. Satan is the guy on the shoulder saying "it would be more fun to" or "just a little" or whatever.
Is there something more than this to consider?
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Juan
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Posted: Sun Dec 31st, 2006 09:28 pm |
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I was disturbed by the experiences some of you have described in this area and have never heard of or experienced anything like this. It must be terribly difficult to deal with. I looked for other posts on the topic and noticed the heading for this section of the forum and it said “Dealing with the world, the rebellious self and the devil. What Satan can and cannot do; how to defend against him”
What exactly is it that Satan can and cannot do? He is a fallen angel who has what abilities on his own? What power provokes such reactions? God permits other powers??
How does this all fit with free will and providence? God asks the questions, we answer. Is it not correct that Satan can tempt a person but the choice is still up to the individual. Satan is the guy on the shoulder saying "it would be more fun to" or "just a little" or whatever.
Is there something more than this to consider?
Those who cooperate with Satan, obey him and permit him to act in this world through them.
2852 "A murderer from the beginning, . . . a liar and the father of lies," Satan is "the deceiver of the whole world." Through him sin and death entered the world and by his definitive defeat all creation will be "freed from the corruption of sin and death." Now "we know that anyone born of God does not sin, but He who was born of God keeps him, and the evil one does not touch him. We know that we are of God, and the whole world is in the power of the evil one." The Lord who has taken away your sin and pardoned your faults also protects you and keeps you from the wiles of your adversary the devil, so that the enemy, who is accustomed to leading into sin, may not surprise you. One who entrusts himself to God does not dread the devil. "If God is for us, who is against us?"
It is the opposite of those of us who cooperate with God, unite our wills to Him and permit Him to act in this world through us.
775 "The Church, in Christ, is like a sacrament - a sign and instrument, that is, of communion with God and of unity among all men." The Church's first purpose is to be the sacrament of the inner union of men with God. Because men's communion with one another is rooted in that union with God, the Church is also the sacrament of the unity of the human race. In her, this unity is already begun, since she gathers men "from every nation, from all tribes and peoples and tongues"; at the same time, the Church is the "sign and instrument" of the full realization of the unity yet to come.
Sincerely,
Juan
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Dec 31st, 2006 10:19 pm |
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Is it not correct that Satan can tempt a person but the choice is still up to the individual. Satan is the guy on the shoulder saying "it would be more fun to" or "just a little" or whatever.
Satan also works through fear, anger, excitement, self justification and other means. We leave the door open and he gladly obliges. As mentioned in the other threads, a lot of the physical and psychological “urges” we feel are inspired by demons. We don’t have to be aware that they are behind these urges for them to be satanic. On the other hand, we also don’t have to ascribe everything to them; sometimes our own human vulnerability and failings (what theologians, following St. Paul, often refer to collectively as “the flesh”) are to blame.
Yes, technically the choice is still ours, but sometimes it’s hard to tell what we’re choosing because the demons are “jamming” our judgment. And when a person is deep into sin, sometimes God just “turns him over” to Satan. This is a punishment for his sins, and it typically results in yet more sin. Why would God do this? So the person can see just how low he sinks without God and grace. Many times we see a turnaround; at this point, new life can begin. And this is what God has in mind.
Overall, however, if you are trying your best to obey God, he will see to it that temptations, whether from Satan or of your own making, will not overcome you. Even if you continue to fall on occasion, through the use of the sacraments and your own ascetic work, you should note gradual progress in virtue.
I mentioned to Betty in one of the threads in this section that a good book to glean for information on demons and how to combat them is the Life (Autobiography) of St. Teresa of Avila. I believe you would benefit from this work as well. Another is The Spiritual Combat, by Lorenzo Scupoli. Both works are available in a variety of editions.
David
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Luke12:48
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Posted: Mon Jan 1st, 2007 08:31 pm |
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...Life (Autobiography) of St. Teresa of Avila. I believe you would benefit from this work as well. Another is The Spiritual Combat, by Lorenzo Scupoli
Ok David. I think I have hit that level of frustration you mentioned so many posts ago.
-- I have seen the Scupoli one before and had saved a link to it and have found Life online as well. I am not sure I "get" some of this and am more confused after skimming them. I have a hard time with anything that starts off with seeking Christian perfection. I think that is the problem with many of the "classics" It is presumed that the reader is looking for that level of information but I will hold off on further questions until I can read these more carefully.
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Mon Jan 1st, 2007 11:26 pm |
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I have a hard time with anything that starts off with seeking Christian perfection.
Wasn’t this Jesus’ own admonition to all in his sermon on the mount? “Be perfect as your heavenly Father is perfect” (Matthew 5:48).
So long as you are looking at these works online, why not just search for “demon,” “Satan” or “tempt” and see what the context yields. That is really what I had in mind, not reading the entire tome.
David
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GoFisher
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Posted: Mon Jan 15th, 2007 05:06 pm |
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the demonic fallen angel of light cannot do the following:
PRAISE THE LORD ("The Lord lives in the praises of His people".)
admit that The Lord Jesus came in the flesh. (St John tells us to test the spirits by asking them if Jesus came in the flesh. demons will only say that he came in the spirit and not the flesh (like gnostics and other heretics). so the crucifix is a picture of Jesus coming in the flesh.
cannot lead you to sin without your permission.
cast out sinful, evil, tormenting thoughts (you must do that on your own).
get "saved" or go to heaven to live for eternity.
cannot change his fate of eternal damnation to the place created for him (that is one reason he tries to get humans to choose to go with him),
take complete dominion on earth (given to humans when we were created in the image of God) while Christians are here and The Holy Spirit is still here.
tell the truth; as a liar, he twists Scriptures toward his end.
____________________
Love, hear + obey God: go fish! (me)
+ The Word became flesh... (St. John 1:14)
Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. (St. Jerome)
+ Follow Me... fishers of men. (St. Matthew quotes The Lord Jesus)
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Darlene
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Posted: Fri Jan 19th, 2007 07:40 pm |
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Gofisher,
Thanks so much for your post. Everything you said makes sense, and agrees with scripture.
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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GoFisher
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Posted: Tue Jan 23rd, 2007 11:39 pm |
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Thanks Darlene.
The Catholic Church believes The Holy Scriptures it compiled at the ecumenical councils.
I pray that I will always be accurate in my teaching of The Word (including John chapter 6 on The Transubstantiation of The Eucharist to The Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord Jesus).
When I studied at my A.T.S.-accredited seminary, I took four semesters of Biblical Hebrew, but it is a relief to have Papal authority with The Magesterium for interpretation and to show us which Scriptures would be included in The Holy Bible.
Standing on The Word,
GoFisher!
____________________
Love, hear + obey God: go fish! (me)
+ The Word became flesh... (St. John 1:14)
Ignorance of Scripture is ignorance of Christ. (St. Jerome)
+ Follow Me... fishers of men. (St. Matthew quotes The Lord Jesus)
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Candlemass
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Posted: Wed May 9th, 2007 10:27 pm |
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Quote: Yes, technically the choice is still ours, but sometimes it’s hard to tell what we’re choosing because the demons are “jamming” our judgment. And when a person is deep into sin, sometimes God just “turns him over” to Satan. This is a punishment for his sins, and it typically results in yet more sin. Why would God do this? So the person can see just how low he sinks without God and grace. Many times we see a turnaround; at this point, new life can begin. And this is what God has in mind.
Been there, would rather not revisit!
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"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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CajunRick
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Posted: Thu May 10th, 2007 12:36 am |
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Candlemass wrote: And when a person is deep into sin, sometimes God just “turns him over” to Satan.
I don't believe that. God never abandons us. God never turns his back on us. We turn our back on God so that we cannot see him waiting behind us. But before God can help us, we have to turn around.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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Candlemass
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Posted: Thu May 10th, 2007 06:58 am |
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| Well Paul said he handed over some people to Satan so that they may be taught not to blaspheme, I believe God may do this in His mercy, sometimes we don't heed the gentle messenger, so God may send a cruel one, always for our greater good though.
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"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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mark13
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Posted: Thu May 24th, 2007 09:38 pm |
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| or it could be or own sinful natures that we blame on Satan, even when he has nothing to do with it.
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iykujfky
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Talithacumi
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Posted: Fri May 25th, 2007 09:47 pm |
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cajunrick wrote: Candlemass wrote: And when a person is deep into sin, sometimes God just “turns him over” to Satan.
I don't believe that. God never abandons us. God never turns his back on us. We turn our back on God so that we cannot see him waiting behind us. But before God can help us, we have to turn around.
I think we're really all kind of saying the same thing here, though it doesn't appear that way at first.
I believe, as Mark mentioned, that the idea that God could "turn one over to Satan" is scriptural, isn't it? I'm no theologian, and I don't want to get into "personal interpretation" here (though I believe there's nothing wrong with that as long as one's interpretations don't go against any of the Church's teachings)... but anyway, I think that what this might be referring to is sanctifying grace.
After all, if one commits a "deep" sin - a mortal sin, isn't it true that he is no longer in a state of grace? He no longer has God's saving grace within him - not until he repents. So in a sense, that person has been "turned over" to Satan - not by God's choice, but by the sinner's own choice. God is a Gentleman who forces no one, so it's our choice whether or not we want to be "turned over" to Satan. But He will turn us over if that's what we choose with our free will. And sometimes, I picture God as the Father who humors his rebellious child in order to teach him a lesson... picture the pre-pubescent boy who decides to try smoking, and Dad shrugs and thinks, "OK, you wanna smoke? Have at it..." So he allows the kid to smoke all he wants til he's choking and green and puking. (That'll learn ya, kiddo!  ). Of course, Dad isn't far away and is right there to pick up the pieces, so to speak, well... you know what I mean. 
Anyway, just a little bit of my musings...
JMJ
- Cheri
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- G.K. Chesterton
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Didi
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Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 06:55 pm |
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I didn't see this addressed here, but it may have been asked somewhere else (I'm new to the forum, so try as I might, I haven't read everything yet!!).
Can the devil hear our thoughts?
I had a friend say that she often prays "in her head" because then satan can't hear her.
But I know I have experienced many temptations and struggled with inner dialogue that seems to be a true spiritual battle.
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Thu Mar 13th, 2008 11:58 pm |
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Hi Didi,
Can the devil hear our thoughts?
According to master apologist (and professional philosopher) Peter Kreeft, no:
They [angels] can't force themselves into our minds any more than they can force our wills. Neither good angels nor evil spirits can do this . . .
But you can will to reveal your thoughts and your secrets to your guardian angel by talking to him . . .
Angels teach each other by direct mental telepathy, but this is not the way they teach us. Rather, they "inspire" us; they suggest things to our imagination.
Evil spirits do the same. Demons tempt us in the same way as guardian angels help us.
(Angels and Demons, San Francisco: Ignatius Press, 1995, 64-65)
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Mar 14th, 2008 01:56 am |
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Dave Armstrong’s note from Peter Kreeft is correct, Didi. Angelic beings, including Satan and the demons, do not have direct access to our inmost thoughts. Only God has that power.
What an angel or demon can do is deduce your thoughts from your outward actions and indications. They understand body language and other subtle signs, so in many cases they do not even need to hear what you say.
In their turn, angels and demons can suggest things to us through the medium of our imagination. This can be a very powerful stumulus, but it can never be decisive in deciding whether we will do good or evil as a result. This is up to our own free will.
* * * * *
Some time back in this thread, I said, “And when a person is deep into sin, sometimes God just ‘turns him over’ to Satan.” A couple of people have indicated doubt or puzzlement with regard to this statement.
Let us first turn our attention to the first chapter of the book of Job. Now Job was a righteous man, yet God told Satan, “Behold, all that he has is in your power; only upon himself do not put forth your hand.” Imagine, then, if Job had been an evil man.
Now let us turn to St. Paul’s Epistle to the Romans. Here, regarding the pagan sinners, he says: “Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity…” (1:24) and “For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions.…” (1:26) The meaning is that God withheld his grace and allowed the devil free rein, seeing as how they were already given over to sin.
Again, in 1 Corinthians, Paul instructs them: “When you are assembled, and my spirit is present, with the power of our Lord Jesus, you are to deliver this man to Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that his spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.” (5:4–5) If God has given permission for man to do this, surely he himself can and will do the same for a just cause.
In another line of argument, we see in Luke 22:3 (compare John 13:27) that “Satan entered into Judas called Iscariot.” It is clear that in this surrender of Judas into Satan’s clutches, God is allowing it to happen. It can rightfully be said, then, that God is “turning him over” to Satan.
Likewise, in a book published in Spanish by the University of Navarre (founded in 1968 by St. Josemaría Escrivá de Balaguer), Síntesis de la Espiritualidad (“Synthesis of Spirituality,” 5th edition, 1999), a textbook on spiritual theology by professors José Rivera and José María Iraburu, Part 3, Chapter 1, it speaks of mortal sin and how “the sinner, subject to Satan, makes himself deserving of eternal damnation.” Being “subject to Satan” comes about only if God “gives him up” and allows Satan to take him over.
David
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Dave Armstrong
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Posted: Fri Mar 14th, 2008 07:11 pm |
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I agree that God sometimes gives a person up to their sin (and to Satan) for a time, with the ultimate goal of causing them to repent by hitting bottom and waking up (rather than being lost).
I dare say that this happened in my own life. Being content, at age 18 (back in 1977), to live without God and pay Him very little notice at all, all of a sudden I found myself in a deep (very serious, clinical) depression and utter despair, that lasted six months. God knew what it would take in my case to wake me up. It worked. I soon cried out to Him (having nowhere else to go, and no hope). God in His tender mercy, accepts even this "default" / last resort discipleship. So I devoted my life to Him, as an evangelical Protestant. The depression didn't go away immediately, but the black despair did, and once the depression left after six months, it never returned (thank heavens).
I've always interpreted this as God, in effect, saying, "okay, Dave. You want to live without Me? Do you truly want to see what it would be like to live a life of no hope and meaning; a world without God? Alright; I'll let you do that."
And I saw what a truly Godless, nihilistic universe would be like and wanted no part of that!
I should add, too, that (as David noted) there are also times that a person rejects God utterly and so God "gives him up" because God honors the free will of man and will force no one to follow Him by compulsion. It's more a semi-sarcastic or ironic manner of biblical speech. Man chooses to rebel, but to phrase it as "God giving him up" conveys the sense of God's control of everything, or relinquishing control (of human free will) as the case may be.
In my case, obviously God knew (being omniscient) that I would soon cry out, so it was literally an act of mercy to give me totally over to my own corrupt desire of living a life of "practical atheism". Many atheists can play games and pretend as if a world without God still has meaning, but I was allowed the privilege of seeing what a consistent atheism leads and reduces to: black despair and meaninglessness.
Last edited on Fri Mar 14th, 2008 07:17 pm by Dave Armstrong
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http://www.biblicalcatholic.com/
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Didi
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Posted: Sun Mar 16th, 2008 02:52 am |
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Thanks for your help! 
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BeProf
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Posted: Mon Apr 7th, 2008 07:25 pm |
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If the book of Job teaches us nothing else it is this...
The Devil can't do anything that God doesn't let him do.
That is, as Gandalf liked to say, a very comforting thought.
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