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Luke12:48
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| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Southeast, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 119 |
| First Name: | Kate | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle catholic, left for many years, returned June 2006 |
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Posted: Wed Nov 8th, 2006 12:03 am |
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This book was originally suggested by a member (maybe David or mg57?) on the old board and I have finally gotten around to it but have questions (of course)
In discussing The Three Ways, the author speaks of an "awakening" and says "To the degree that a person responds to the awakening--for response is always necessary--life will be changed. One person may turn away and the experience of grace will pursue him--to borrow Francis Thompson's expression--as he flees "down the nights and down the days" until he is caught. Another person may turn away and the invitation will not be extended again, as we have seen in the case of Bertrand Russell. Yet another will be haunted by it, as James Joyce was, never being quite able to stifle the call, yet never really answering it. Still others will respond totally like St. Francis."
I keep coming back to this and am having trouble relating this to the prior discussions on prevenient grace. At first I was tempted to write the differences off to individual responses to grace but the author uses the active terms of "grace will pursue" and "the invitation will not be extended" or is it that someone "through prayer and penance" repeatedly "asks for grace" for the individual being "pursued?
Also, the author often makes statements like "Despite sincere attempts to become better, we frequently fail to recognize that consistent behavior reflects attitudes and it is these we must change." (kind of obvious) or talks about growth needing to occur at certain points but never really goes into the "how" --where does one find more guidance on spiritual growth as opposed to a simple description of the stages?
While the reading on the later stages or the dark night has been interesting, it is too far removed from any of my experience to have much meaning beyond intellectual curiosity at this point. I think my reading has gone too far beyond me and I need to go back a few steps--if that makes any sense. I know this is a dangerous question to ask here :-0 but any suggestions for my next book....
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Nov 8th, 2006 12:58 am |
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Kate, just the other day I was discussing with someone else this “awakening” (or as we were calling it, a “visitation”). The purification involved, according to this person, is really stiff, and the suffering is intense. But now that the eyesight is clear, major obstacles are appearing in the only road in or out. You say you have trouble relating to this and the “dark night.” This person does, too, and yet it happened.
What you probably don’t realize is that you’ve already been through some of these things in your own life. What do you think brought you back to the Church? Yes, it was prevenient grace. We all receive it. It’s what we do with it that makes the difference. Purification and salvation come with our positive response. We can’t just sit and wait for a “rapture.” So your initial reaction was correct, and your later rationalization was fooled.
Yes, in some instances God’s grace will “pursue” the person. In others, the invitation “will not be extended” after the first time. Why this difference? Because God, who sees into the depths of the human soul, knows exactly who will accept his grace and who will not. To him who will not accept, one offer is enough. But if there is even the tiniest glimmer of life, God keeps blowing on it until it bursts into flame. So the difference is in the response, not in the offer. And as you conjecture, intercessory prayer can help bring that proffered grace to ignition. (I’m taking a Molinist approach to grace here to explain what Fr. Groeschel wrote, because I see that he favors Molina’s explanation of grace.)
Your next book will depend on what your difficulties are at this point. But frankly, I think first some time spent in prayer would help more, don’t you?
David
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Luke12:48
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| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Southeast, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 119 |
| First Name: | Kate | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle catholic, left for many years, returned June 2006 |
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Posted: Wed Nov 8th, 2006 02:35 am |
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[size=You say you have trouble relating to this and the “dark night.” This person does, too, and yet it happened. What you probably don’t realize is that you’ve already been through some of these things in your own life.
Maybe that is my problem. I do not see any of this in my own past year and that makes it difficult to know where to go from here.
What do you think brought you back to the Church? Yes, it was prevenient grace. We all receive it. It’s what we do with it that makes the difference.
Yes, but once asked and answered, then what?
So your initial reaction was correct, and your later rationalization was fooled.
I'm lost here--what initial reaction/later rationalization?
Why this difference? Because God, who sees into the depths of the human soul, knows exactly who will accept his grace and who will not.
At least this makes sense now!
Your next book will depend on what your difficulties are at this point. But frankly, I think first some time spent in prayer would help more, don’t you?
It hasn't yet but I suppose anything is possible. You once threatened that I might have to learn patience:?
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Nov 8th, 2006 09:45 am |
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Maybe that is my problem. I do not see any of this in my own past year.
Most people experience difficulties, even major ones, as they move through the stages of conversion. But conversion itself is a grace. I did not want to imply that you are “far advanced in holiness.” We all need to progress in that department. The bottom line is that growing in grace, even ordinary grace, can be very conflicting and painful. And this is what you have experienced.
Your present quandary is part of that pain. You are trying to understand in order to believe instead of believing in order to understand, according to that quote from St. Augustine that Cajunrick attaches to his posts. You are “trying too hard.” This, in turn, is why I suggested a little “time out” for prayer and silence. You’ve “earned it,” so take it. Relax and find God in all of this. Without that contact, all this mental anguish will be useless.
Yes, but once asked and answered, then what?
You think your journey of faith is over?
So your initial reaction was correct, and your later rationalization was fooled.… I'm lost here — what initial reaction/later rationalization?
You had said, “At first I was tempted to write the differences off to individual responses to grace.” I’m saying that this first impression was correct, in spite of your subsequent misgivings. I went on to explain how this happens, and you have responded, “At least this makes sense now!” So you understand, even if you don’t know what it is you understand.
I told you a long while ago that you will not be able to see where you are going as you grapple with God, that you will need a guide. You are now discovering just how true this is. It is the reason you are asking, “Where does one find more guidance on spiritual growth as opposed to a simple description of the stages?”
As we approach God, knowledge runs out of gas very quickly. When traveling by faith, one learns by humility and obedience. This is the meaning of that quote from St. Augustine. Later on, you will find that faith is itself a sort of non-intellectual knowledge.
You once threatened that I might have to learn patience.
I believe my exact words were, “If you stick with me, you will definitely have to learn patience.” You are now seeing that prophecy come true. And I think you are doing pretty well. At least you haven’t given up in disgust.
David
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Luke12:48
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| Joined: | Sat Sep 30th, 2006 |
| Location: | Southeast, Pennsylvania USA |
| Posts: | 119 |
| First Name: | Kate | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle catholic, left for many years, returned June 2006 |
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Posted: Thu Nov 9th, 2006 10:57 pm |
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[size=Most people experience difficulties, even major ones, as they move through the stages of conversion. But conversion itself is a grace. I did not want to imply that you are “far advanced in holiness.”
No danger of that mistake. I am considering a writing a 3 volume set on the "six billion phases before you even get to the stages (only kidding)
Your present quandary is part of that pain. You are trying to understand in order to believe instead of believing in order to understand, according to that quote from St. Augustine that Cajunrick attaches to his posts. You are “trying too hard.” This, in turn, is why I suggested a little “time out” for prayer and silence. You’ve “earned it,” so take it. Relax and find God in all of this. Without that contact, all this mental anguish will be useless.
Hmmm...me trying too hard? Maybe. I will ponder this one...I read that quote often and still wonder how it is possible. I do understand the need for that contact and have been amazed at when and where I see it. I sometimes wonder at the things that appeal to me or the reactions I have. I'm not very comfortable with this yet. Then the next day is nothing but doubt or lack of trust and I find that there is almost no middle ground.
You think your journey of faith is over?
Oh no...barely started! I was coming more from the idea of "what's next?"
"So you understand, even if you don’t know what it is you understand."
I understand the answer--it was that I wasn't sure what you were referring to in that particular line. That will teach me to stay up too late.
I told you a long while ago that you will not be able to see where you are going as you grapple with God, that you will need a guide.
Hmmm....grapple is an interesting verb choice here.
You are now discovering just how true this is. It is the reason you are asking, “Where does one find more guidance on spiritual growth as opposed to a simple description of the stages?”
And books just don't always cut it....
As we approach God, knowledge runs out of gas very quickly. When traveling by faith, one learns by humility and obedience.
But how?
I believe my exact words were, “If you stick with me, you will definitely have to learn patience.” You are now seeing that prophecy come true. And I think you are doing pretty well. At least you haven’t given up in disgust.
It has been suggested that I never know when to quit I don't know that disgust would be the word--maybe in frustration. I have days where "leave me alone" floats in the back of my mind but the passage that started this thread and screen name usually stop that quickly. Perhaps it is fear that the invitation will not be extended again and when one has been given much, much is expected.
Speaking of frustration...how on earth do you separate the quotes into the different boxes? I can only get one large box.
Kate
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Nov 10th, 2006 02:27 am |
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Trying too hard: The scientist in you wants to understand so as to accept and believe, whereas what you need is faith so that you might understand after a different, but more exalted, manner. This is why I called your attention to the quote from St. Augustine, which hits the nail on the head.
A passage from the 14th century German mystic Johann Tauler, from his Sermon 4 for the Epiphany, which I was using earlier today as my text for meditation, seems apropos here:
“Where is He that is born King of the Jews?” (Matt. 2:2).
“Where is he born, the King of the Jews? We want to adore Him and honor Him with myrrh and incense and gold.”
The soul knows well enough, even by the light of nature, that God exists; but who He is or where He is, that is something we do not know. It is hidden from us and we know nothing whatever about it. But the soul begins to yearn lovingly for God, she goes about seeking and asking for Him. She longs to know about this God of hers who is so hidden and concealed from her. And as she wanders up and down seeking her God, a star appears, to lead her. This star is a ray or shaft of divine grace, a divine light which tells her that He has been born, and guides the soul to the place of His birth; for there is no merely natural light which can show us where He is.
There are people who want to seek for God’s birth by their own natural light, and they are doomed to failure. They are bound to lose their way and waste their time. Natural intelligence will never succeed in finding God’s birth. Only one light can show us what this birth is and where we may find it, and that is the same light which shone at His birth. But these silly people cannot and will not wait for the appearance of the only light which can lead us there. They grow impatient and want to find it by their natural light; but this is impossible. They must wait their time, and the time is not yet.
In some people this desire grows and becomes so ardent that their very flesh and blood seem to be possessed by it, and it penetrates to the marrow of their bones. And indeed it is right that nature should make every effort is can in the search, if this desire is to be fulfilled and God’s birth truly found, though there is no natural light which will reveal this birth to us.
There are three things to be observed. The first is the instrument of the search, which is desire. The second is the manner of the search. And the third is the finding of God’s birth. Now consider three other things: first, our animal senses and feelings, which belong to our flesh-and-blood nature; second, our reason; third, the simple and pure substance of our souls. Each one of these is quite different from the other, and each receives impressions differently, in its own way. The shining of the sun is in itself a single thing; but if you have three different pieces of glass, one black, one yellow and one white, they will all receive the sunlight differently. We may take the black glass as standing for our senses, the yellow for our reason and the white for our souls, simple and pure. But when the senses are led by the reason and the reason by the soul, the black glass becomes yellow and the yellow white, and they all become one pure simplicity in which alone this light shines, and nowhere else. Now the light can be seen as it really is, and we can see truly God’s birth and that only, stripped of all images and forms and similitudes.
I do understand the need for that contact and have been amazed at when and where I see it. I sometimes wonder at the things that appeal to me or the reactions I have. I'm not very comfortable with this yet. Then the next day is nothing but doubt or lack of trust and I find that there is almost no middle ground.
This flip-flopping is the result of your momentarily accepting faith as your guide, but the next day you’re back to trying to figure it all out intellectually again. It’s basically a war going on within you: mind against heart. You returned to the practice of your religion by way of the heart, but your mind keeps interfering, posing difficulties and entertaining doubts. A little more personal integration is in order, don’t you think? This comes from prayer and fasting, not from beating your brains out because you “don’t understand.”
Hmmm....grapple is an interesting verb choice here.
I used the word advisedly, with reference to Genesis 32:24–32.
And books just don't always cut it.... When traveling by faith, one learns by humility and obedience.… But how?
That’s why we sometimes need a spiritual guide.
At least you haven’t given up in disgust.… I don't know that disgust would be the word — maybe in frustration.
Isn’t frustration a kind of disgust?
Speaking of frustration...how on earth do you separate the quotes into the different boxes? I can only get one large box.
You’re probably trying to write your posts in the forum’s text box. Especially in the WYSIWYG format (Internet Explorer or Firefox), the BBCode formatting commands don’t show so you’re always lost. I do most of my writing in my word processor, entering the commands manually, and transfer the text to the browser when it’s finished.
For quotes there’s a Start Quote command and a Stop Quote command. This information, and a lot more, is available in the forum’s Help page, accessed by a button located in the upper right hand corner of the Lobby page. If you need to nest commands, follow the rules of algebraic groupings.
My advantage lies in the fact that I do this sort of thing for a living. I’ve worked in the printing and publishing industry for more than 30 years.
David
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