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Truthseeker
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Posted: Sun Jan 28th, 2007 12:54 pm |
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Hi-
I need help with chapter four - about spiritual lixury. It talks about sensual and impure motions during and resulting from holy stuff - like prayer. but since those words only mean sex to me, I can't figure out what it means. What are they talking about? What could be impure about enjoying prayer time?
Thanks - Laura
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Sun Jan 28th, 2007 02:39 pm |
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Yes, Laura, this is exactly the meaning. Some people — I have known people like this — actually feel these sexual stirrings, or at least a strong feeling of physical well-being, while praying, attending Mass or receiving the sacraments. It can be highly disturbing to some, while others revel in it and wallow in the “feel-good gospel.” St. John treats of both reactions and shows the harm that comes from each.
The key portion of this chapter, as I see it, is the following (I’m posting from the Kevanaugh-Rodriguez version, which is the one I have on line):
Our Savior proclaimed in the Gospel: That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit (John 3:6), that is: Love derived from sensuality terminates in sensuality, and the love that is of the spirit terminates in the spirit of God, and brings it increase. And this, then, is the difference between these two loves, which enables us to discern one from the other.
St. John also distinguishes between the movements which come from our own lower nature and those which are insinuated by the devil. But he offers a single solution for both: the dark night of the senses, which is, as it were, an enforced supernatural concentration on God himself, apart from “manifestations” and “phenomena” and other created goods, which ultimately serve only to distract a person from God. In other words, if you are supernaturally focused on God, created things will not intrude to the extent that they disturb your concentration. So if your focus moves away from God and toward creatures, you can be sure the focus was not an act of the Holy Spirit but the result of your own efforts.
As a person becomes more united with God, and hence overall more spiritual and his life more supernatural, these feelings will fade away. However, they can return at a later time (in the illuminative way) to cause more consternation. God’s remedy is the “second night,” the dark night of the spirit, leading to the unitive way, which is the highest level of union with God.
David
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Juan
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Posted: Sun Jan 28th, 2007 02:46 pm |
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Perhaps if you quoted the passage or a sampling of the passages with which you're having trouble.
Otherwise, the only thing I can guess is that we get sensations and feelings of euphoria when we pray. At least, I have experienced these, a fullness of the heart, a feeling as though I'm blushing, experiences of heat and crying (sometimes just tears, sometimes full blown crying, sobbing etc.). Sometimes all of these, sometimes one
of these.
Then, when I didn't feel these things, I thought I was doing something wrong. Or sometimes I thought, God wasn't listening. I kind of felt as though He owed me these things because I was so good.
The sensations are good, but we should not expect them or require them of God. They are gifts. We should not get hooked on the gifts. Prayer is for one purpose, union with God because we love Him. It is more meritorious if we unite with God despite not receiving these gifts, than if we only unite with Him because we expect these gifts.
Capiche?
So, the impure part of it, is the pride of expecting these feelings everytime because we believe God owes them to us.
I hope that helps,
Sincerely,
Juan
Last edited on Sun Jan 28th, 2007 02:47 pm by Juan
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Truthseeker
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Posted: Sun Jan 28th, 2007 04:00 pm |
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| Thank you both.
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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Truthseeker
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Posted: Tue Feb 6th, 2007 11:15 am |
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how does one know if their soul is being still and letting God do His work or if the soul is just doing nothing? I think I am somehow falling more in love with God and am somehow closer to Him (although I still don't really feel it), so I figure He's working in me. I've seen alot of mysel in the Dark Night so far, both in my imperfections and in the spiritual changes I have undergone. One of the things it says is that the soul finally stops working so hard and lets God work in it. But what if I'm really just stagnating and blind to it?
Love,
Laura
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Feb 7th, 2007 12:15 am |
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How does one know if their soul is being still and letting God do His work or if the soul is just doing nothing?
A person (soul) never just does nothing. It can’t happen because the senses and imagination are always active and a certain amount of personal awareness continues even in sleep.
The difference, then, is between a soul that is active, trying to do and “be,” and a soul that is passive, absorbing what comes its way and “just be-ing.” Most of us are varying degrees of both.
I have always told you, Laura, that I believe you are really trying to love God. The hurt that you have felt is not from him, but from more earthly things: your relationships with other human beings and your frustration with yourself for not being a better Christian. Most of this struggle is internal, and it has shaped how you approach God. I can sympathize with you because I see in you some of my own life and struggles. But in the end, each of us must face God alone, and this is the beginning of the dark night.
One of the things it says is that the soul finally stops working so hard and lets God work in it. But what if I’m really just stagnating and blind to it?
Being on the wrong path is a possibility in anyone’s life. I’ve had to ask myself the same question on a number of occasions. The answer is always to be found in absolute obedience to God’s universal commands and frequent confession/spiritual direction in which you lay bare your soul and in turn receive your confessor’s counsel as coming from God. He is the one who must discern whether you are following God’s will or just stagnating. He must help you find the true path and hold to it. Your only duty is to allow him to do his duty. Then you will be safe in God’s hands.
Your perseverance in spite of difficulties shows me that you are really working at being a better Christian. I am happy to see that you are no longer on a bum-out with the calamities and frustrations that have faced you the last couple of years. I do believe that you are trying to discern the graces God is providing and to correspond to them. Like you, I found comfort in St. John of the Cross’s doctrine long before I could see any real progress in my spiritual life. But grace is always something we discern better in hindsight. The proof of any grace is in its fruit, not in how we feel.
David
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Darlene
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Posted: Wed Feb 7th, 2007 12:52 am |
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I have heard many frequently mention St. John of the Cross. Is he the one who wrote about the Dark Night of the Soul? Where can I find some good resources to learn more about his life and teaching?
Darlene
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The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all. II Corinthians 13:14
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Wed Feb 7th, 2007 01:29 am |
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Darlene, one of many sources on St. John of the Cross is this one. His works are very popular and are available in several different English translations. There is abundant information about him on the internet, as well as several books on his life and doctrine. He happens to be one of my patrons; I took his name at confirmation. That was a long time ago, but I still revere him and consult his wisdom frequently.
The original idea for the “dark night” came from an anonymous 5th century author known as pseudo-Dionisius, who wrote several very dense neo-Platonic works on the mystical life. St. John was the one who popularized the term and worked out a systematic theology based on it, in accordance with the dogmatic theology of St. Thomas Aquinas.
There are actually two main “dark nights,” according to St. John’s doctrine, one of the senses and one of the spirit. The night of the senses (which might also be called a “second conversion” or spiritual “awakening”) occurs frequently, while that of the spirit is found only in the most holy of souls and so is relatively rare. Both are times of turmoil and contradiction for the soul, provoking much suffering and difficulty, but they serve as transitions from one level of holiness and union with God to the next, until the soul reaches the highest level, the “transforming union,” also known as the “spiritual marriage” (with God).
Truthseeker is currently reading St. John of the Cross’s work, Dark Night of the Soul. It is the companion work to Ascent of Mount Carmel. The latter work treats of the dark night from the standpoint of the soul’s activity, while the former approaches the same topic from the standpoint of the soul’s passivity. I wrote a reading recommendation for Truthseeker here, and the current thread owes its existence to a question she had on the interpretation of one chapter in the work, Dark Night of the Soul.
David
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Juan
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Posted: Wed Feb 7th, 2007 08:53 am |
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how does one know if their soul is being still and letting God do His work or if the soul is just doing nothing?
You don't.
I think I am somehow falling more in love with God and am somehow closer to Him (although I still don't really feel it),
He is hiding from you.
Song of Songs, Ch 3
1 In my bed by night I sought him whom my soul loveth: I sought him, and found him not. 2 I will rise, and will go about the city: in the streets and the broad ways I will seek him whom my soul loveth: I sought him, and I found him not. 3 The watchmen who keep the city, found me: Have you seen him, whom my soul loveth?
so I figure He's working in me. I've seen alot of mysel in the Dark Night so far, both in my imperfections and in the spiritual changes I have undergone. One of the things it says is that the soul finally stops working so hard and lets God work in it. But what if I'm really just stagnating and blind to it?
Psalms 39
2 With expectation I have waited for the Lord, and he was attentive to me.
We live in expectation and hope. Take all your worries, put them in a bundle and give them to Him.
Psalms 45
11 Be still and see that I am God;
Love,
Laura
Sincerely,
Juan
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Truthseeker
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Posted: Wed Feb 7th, 2007 12:04 pm |
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Thank you all-
The Dark night of the Soul has been reccommended over and over. I have avoided it because for two reasons, until recently. One reason is because I just know that I'm not worthy to receive it. The second reason is that, knowing that it was something good, I have tried to avoid knowing too much about it, because I haven't wanted to get greedy and expect it. I don't know if that makes sense. I haven't wanted to know what to expect and thus try to force it or convince myself I was in it when I wasn't. After several years of so much struggle, I am finally reading it because I am seeing how I am still wanting God, even though the Christian me has suffered so much and the pagan me was doing pretty well (on the surface of things). So, I figured God was drawing me closer and felt ready to see how he was doing it and to confirm my experience by seeing if it resembled what the Dark Night talked about.
Tha main thing that has convinced me that I might actually be experiencing it, is that the book says during the time we can't seem to summon up the worshipful motions and feelings, we feel anguish that we aren't pleasing God, and if we were just backsliding, we wouldn't care that much.
I don't know. It still seems far fetched that I should receive such a great gift as closer union with God. I hope He's really doing that. Especially when it seems I am doing nothing that pleases Him, and not even working so hard at it. I am learning to rely heavily on His patience and Mercy.
God bless.
Laura
____________________
Lord, please make my will your Will!
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CajunRick
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Posted: Wed Feb 7th, 2007 02:19 pm |
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Truthseeker wrote: One reason is because I just know that I'm not worthy to receive it.
You should never avoid anything through unworthyness. We are not worthy of any of God's freely given gifts, especially the sacrifice of our Savior and the gift of his Body and Blood. If we didn't accept that for which we are unworthy, we would never be born.
Look at it instead as a gift God is offering to you. Then repeat the words of the Centurion that we say before communion: "Lord, I am not worthy that you should enter under my roof, but only say the word and my soul will be healed."
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Feb 8th, 2007 02:24 am |
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Laura, here is a short quote from one of the minor works of St. John of the Cross which may serve to guide you as you investigate God’s ways with man.
“The person who in aridity and trial submits to the dictates of his reason is more pleasing to God than he who does everything with consolation, yet fails in this submission.”
In other words, do what seems reasonable in the light of your faith, trusting that God will enlighten you or provide you a guide, and he will take care of the rest. You will know you are on the right track through two signs: fruits and peace.
David
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Truthseeker
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Posted: Thu Feb 8th, 2007 12:16 pm |
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David W. Emery wrote: "The person who in aridity and trial submits to the dictates of his reason is more pleasing to God than he who does everything with consolation, yet fails in this submission.”
I actually just read this in my version of the dark Night. I gather from it, that doing what we believe God wants, even though we don't get our holy pleasure from it is more submissive than doing the things that bring us the holy pleasure, because then, we are truly doing it for God and not ourselves.
Again, as I have heard over and over, it is the "Catholic" definition of love. Love in our actions, not our feelings. Even in daily life, I see how this concept is true, and it makes sense that it should be true for God, too. Lifting my hands and crying through a song (which I love) is about what I'm getting out of worshiping God (at least in part). Struggling to pray when I can't muster up a single word is about worshiping God for himself and not for my "spiritual high". And it pleases God because it's solely for Him and His pleasure.
I am seeing how, even loving God can become it's own selfishness, because sometimes, it becomes about what we want out of our worship. Even just the fact that I "want" to love God so I do, means that, in some way, I am pleasing myself. So maybe, it's in loving God when I don't want to (and i have those moments) that show my true faith. Hopefully, it's a good and pleasing faith to the Most High.
And, I am learning to accept that God gives me what He does regardless of my worthiness. I think I have felt all my life, that I have had to "earn" affection, or that I "owed" myself to someone who gave it to me. I think I am learning that, if God chooses to give to me, His deciision that I am worthy to receive it is what actually make me worthy to receive it. I haven't internalized that yet, but must trust in the Goodness and Rightness of His decisions. Maybe someday......
......It would be nice to not feel like that dung heap Luther compares us to. Maybe God's working on that for me.
Love, Laura
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Lord, please make my will your Will!
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Thu Feb 8th, 2007 03:42 pm |
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You are understanding these things very well, Laura. I knew you had it in you. You just needed to be freed from being all tied up in emotional knots. You’ll be fine.
David
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Juan
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Posted: Thu Feb 8th, 2007 10:52 pm |
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The Dark night of the Soul has been reccommended over and over. I have avoided it because for two reasons, until recently. One reason is because I just know that I'm not worthy to receive it. The second reason is that, knowing that it was something good, I have tried to avoid knowing too much about it, because I haven't wanted to get greedy and expect it. I don't know if that makes sense.
I think that's how most people understand it.
I may be wrong, but I don't think that is correct. The Dark night of the Soul is a part of the purgative way. The purgative way is really a name for our life. Our life is a test in which we must undergo suffering to purge sin from our "flesh". No one is exempt.
So, in my opinion, All people undergo the Dark night of the Soul. It is our response to it which separates the wheat from the chaff.
The reason I believe this is true, is because, when I was an atheist, I very often felt as though I was abandoned by God. Sounds strange doesn't it? But its true. I really called myself an atheist because I couldn't feel the presence of God. But I remember frequently talking to Him in those days, not in prayer, but in blaming Him for all that went wrong in my life. I remember also saying, "Who am I talking to?"
Sincerely,
Juan
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Fri Feb 9th, 2007 12:01 am |
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Juan, St. John explains in several places, and commentators back it up, that the dark night of the senses is the transition from the purgative way to the illuminative way. Since not everyone moves on to the illuminative way, it should be clear that not everyone experiences the dark night.
Furthermore, all suffering is ultimately the result of sin, and those who remain in the purgative way still suffer. Therefore, not all suffering can be ascribed to the dark night.
I think you describe atheism in a very apt way when you say that the “atheist” does not really stop believing in God, but is just angry with him and wants to pretend he doesn’t exist. I’ve seen this happen a lot.
David
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Candlemass
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Posted: Thu Jan 31st, 2008 07:22 pm |
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I scanned through this thread, a bit more then I can grasp! 
____________________
"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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TotusTuus
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Posted: Fri Feb 1st, 2008 02:54 pm |
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Ralph Martin recently appeared on JH and talked about a book he recently wrote about the Spiritual Masters including St. John of the Cross:
Click Here
or
Click Here
He also mentioned that the Poor Clares in Hanceville (Mother Angelica's community) confided to him that they are using his audio set on the same topic:
Click Here
NOTE: Edited to shorten link
Last edited on Sat Feb 2nd, 2008 04:21 am by
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TTM!
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tedjenczewski
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Posted: Sat Feb 2nd, 2008 04:04 am |
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| Dear Laura, Your journey in faith inspires me and far surpasses the work of God's grace thus far in me. I am reminded of St Paul's letter 2 Corinthians in which he rejoices in his weakness that through it he be made strong. Everything is the grace of God. God bless you.
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"...the church of the living God, the pillar and bulwark of the truth." 1Tim 3, 15
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setapart
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Posted: Sun Feb 3rd, 2008 03:41 am |
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This link will take you to free pdf downloads of 19 Catholic Devotional Classics and the Douy-Rheims Bible plus enough online classics to keep one busy for the next several years.
http://www.catholicspiritualdirection.org/catholicclassics.html
God Bless
Bill
____________________
But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture. Mal 4:2
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setapart
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Posted: Sun Feb 3rd, 2008 04:03 am |
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And, I am learning to accept that God gives me what He does regardless of my worthiness. I think I have felt all my life, that I have had to "earn" affection, or that I "owed" myself to someone who gave it to me. I think I am learning that, if God chooses to give to me, His deciision that I am worthy to receive it is what actually make me worthy to receive it. I haven't internalized that yet, but must trust in the Goodness and Rightness of His decisions. Maybe someday......
......It would be nice to not feel like that dung heap Luther compares us to. Maybe God's working on that for me.
Love, Laura
Laura
I posted a link that has Catholic Classics. This same link also has spiritual direction for women. I have just come across this site so I do not know the person but it sounds like she has good credentials. She offers an online course on Spiritual Formation and personal spritual direction for women by email, mail, or telephone.
http://www.catholicspiritualdirection.org/personaldirection.html
God Bless,
Bill
____________________
But for you who fear my name, the Sun of Righteousness will rise with healing in his wings. And you will go free, leaping with joy like calves let out to pasture. Mal 4:2
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