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carenanightchild
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| First Name: | Elizabeth | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Independent Baptist |
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 01:35 pm |
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I was wondering how those in other denominations can be truly sincere and yet wrong? My home church, an independent Baptist, is strongly anti-Catholic. At the same time, many of those there are truly seeking God. This includes several former Catholics. I have rarely seen such devotion to the Lord's service. Yet, according to the Catholic church, they are against God's true church. How do I reconcile this?
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
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| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 02:20 pm |
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carenanightchild wrote: I was wondering how those in other denominations can be truly sincere and yet wrong? My home church, an independent Baptist, is strongly anti-Catholic. At the same time, many of those there are truly seeking God. This includes several former Catholics. I have rarely seen such devotion to the Lord's service. Yet, according to the Catholic church, they are against God's true church. How do I reconcile this?
They are not truly against God's true Church. They have been blinded by false information into believing that the Catholic Church is not God's true Church. Their sincerity is very real, and they truly believe they are following God's path as it has been taught to them. That's why the Catholic Church teaches that salvation is available to all who "seek God with a sincere heart".
We can only pray that someday they will investigate the Catholic Church with an open mind, and will discover truth. As Bishop Sheen said, "there are not a hundred people who hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they think the Catholic Church to be".
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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carenanightchild
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| First Name: | Elizabeth | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | Independent Baptist |
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 02:22 pm |
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That helps. What is the church's position on those who were formerly Catholic and are now Evangelical?
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CajunRick
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 02:51 pm |
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carenanightchild wrote: That helps. What is the church's position on those who were formerly Catholic and are now Evangelical?
If they truly understood their Catholic faith and rejected it, they have forfeited salvation. However, if they truly understood their Catholic faith, they would never have left. You can talk to them for about 30 seconds and realize that they never understood their faith in the first place.
I have a friend who left the Catholic Church and became evangelical. He commented to me that he had never heard a particular message in the Catholic church. I responded that he hadn't been to church in at least 7 years, and only attended sporadically before that. How did he know what Catholics were taught? He never used that argument again.
When a "former Catholic" tells me they know all about the Church, I ask them how often they attended mass, how well they listened to the homilies, how often they attended classes and scripture studies, how well they participated in religious education, etc. Chances are they stayed in CCD as long as they had to and did as little as they could get away with, and quit going to church right after confirmation. In other words, they were never catechized in the first place.
It's up to God to decide whether that was their own fault or not.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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BodRod
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| Joined: | Mon Oct 2nd, 2006 |
| Location: | Apple Valley, California USA |
| Posts: | 720 |
| First Name: | Cliff | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Raised an SDA, then Generic Christian, finally at home with ... |
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Posted: Mon Aug 13th, 2007 03:15 pm |
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| I can remember sitting in a prot. church and hearing sermons about John 10:16, " ..... other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd." and then hearing the same people putting down other religions and their members, such as calling Rome "the seat of the devil", etc., etc., etc.
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Gratias agamus Domino Deo nostro.
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brian
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Chicago South Burbs, Illinois USA |
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| First Name: | brian | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | methodist, evangelical, anglican, catholic |
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Posted: Tue Aug 14th, 2007 01:33 am |
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Rick, When you say that they need to understand their fauth and then leave it to be guilty, do you mean that tey have to understand it in the sense that they know that it is true, or simply that they have to mentally understand what it teaches?
Because there may be a few people who have left the church after understanding at least in writing what Catholic doctrine teaches, but maybe they did not understand in their hearts. So are you saying if someone could pass an exam on all Catholic doctrine and then left with a sincere heart believing that Jesus wanted thme to be non Catholic that they would still be guilty, or saying that this understanding would have to be an understanding that uderstands that something is true, and not simply being able to repeat it.
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CajunRick
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Posted: Tue Aug 14th, 2007 01:23 pm |
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brian wrote: Rick, When you say that they need to understand their fauth and then leave it to be guilty, do you mean that tey have to understand it in the sense that they know that it is true, or simply that they have to mentally understand what it teaches?
Fully comprehend what they are leaving. Knowledge of the facts is not enough, they must comprehend, grasp, and accept. If not, then they do not fully realize what they are leaving and cannot be held fully culpable.
Remember the conditions for mortal sin: There must be a grave evil that we commit knowingly and willingly. If I truly believe that the Catholic Church is evil, then I do not have full knowledge.
That's why we can't judge the sinfulness of even someone like Martin Luther. His opinion of the Church was clouded by the corruption of his day, so maybe even he, as brilliant a theologian as he was, truly believed that the Church had departed from the "true path". If so, then even in heresy he was not guilty of a mortal sin. We simply don't know, and we must leave the judgment up to God.
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Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Annie
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| Joined: | Wed Feb 14th, 2007 |
| Location: | Columbus, Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Annie | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | nothing, Quaker, Mennonite, Presbyterian, Methodist, Anglican, Catholic |
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Posted: Tue Aug 14th, 2007 01:46 pm |
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| What you seem to be discussing is the issue of "invincible ignorance."
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Annie
Ora et labora
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David W. Emery
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Posted: Tue Aug 14th, 2007 02:00 pm |
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Brian, I’m going to pursue a different line of thinking on this than Rick. What I say will not contradict him, but will supplement it with a different scenario.
There are several factors I see working in the fact that thousands of Catholics leave the faith each year in this country.
First, the one we hear so much about: poor catechesis. This is certainly part of the problem, but I think its importance has been exaggerated. The reason I believe this is because a person has to want to learn before he will learn, and if he is not being taught what he yearns to know, he will seek it out.
Second: the world, the flesh and the devil. Not necessarily in that order, although I do think that secular news and television in general have a lot to do with the popularity of the other sources of temptation. If one analyzes the history of a large group of Catholics who leave the Church, tops on the list of reasons is the cultural influence and the moral atmosphere in the home. Teenagers especially find these attractive (something about asserting their independence, n’est pas?) and get involved in moral compromise. They then declare that they see nothing wrong with their slavery to sin and exit the Church, stage left.
Third: still on the previous topic, but now with a special focus — self-centeredness. Everything in a consumer culture is oriented to self, sensation and satisfaction. It leaves not only God but all others out of the picture. Subscription to this ideology is the immediate cause of many a defection: “I want, I want!” OK, then, go for the gusto if you think that is where happiness lies.
What do I see as the primary cause of defection? Blindness. We see, yet we do not see. Note where blindness shows up in the bible: among those who have the most and the best that religion has to offer — the scribes and Pharisees (cf. Matthew 15:14). In Catholicism it is no different. Here we have the fullness of truth, the real presence of Christ, genuine forgiveness of sins and true holiness as a consequence. And we are blind to it because we have followed our ancestor, Eve: “So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate; and she also gave some to her husband, and he ate” (Genesis 3:6). She saw the fruit; she did not see God. Her shortsightedness has been disastrous for us.
So are they guilty who leave? Yes. They are guilty not so much because they leave, but of the things they did which led them to leave.
David
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Candlemass
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| Joined: | Tue May 1st, 2007 |
| Location: | Hudson, Ohio USA |
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| First Name: | Mark | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic, AOG, Baptist, non - denominational, Anglican, CC for life! |
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Posted: Wed Jan 23rd, 2008 08:00 pm |
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CajunRick wrote: carenanightchild wrote:
It's up to God to decide whether that was their own fault or not.
I like this answer, too often I see mere mortals sit on the judgement seat of God!
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"For we have spent enough of our past lifetime in doing the will of the Gentiles—when we walked in lewdness, lusts, drunkenness, revelries, drinking parties, and abominable idolatries."--1st Peter 4:3 NKJV
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