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poshmalteser
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| Joined: | Thu Dec 13th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | carmelina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle catholic but now very ecumenically minded |
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Posted: Fri Dec 14th, 2007 10:38 am |
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 I hope I am not repeating myself as I do not think my last message on this topic was sent, so forgive me if it has already gone to press!
I am interested to find out if the concept of Transubstantiation was done away with when Queen Elizabeth I, was reigning in England, and when she introducted the Common Book of Prayer to replace the sacrifice of the Mass,and was it at this time also that Priests in the C of E were allowed to marry? Or was this started by Luther at the time of his rebellion against INDULGENCES?
This is a great forum, if only I can learn to get around it. Also I notice not many of us are from England or UK.
Hope I get some feed back on my questions
Carmelina Taplin
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CajunRick
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| Joined: | Fri Sep 29th, 2006 |
| Location: | Houma, Louisiana USA |
| Posts: | 4981 |
| First Name: | Rick (& Kermie) | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Lifetime Catholic, Latin Rite |
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Posted: Fri Dec 14th, 2007 01:17 pm |
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poshmalteser wrote: I hope I am not repeating myself as I do not think my last message on this topic was sent, so forgive me if it has already gone to press!
Carmelina, there was another message where you posted about the Book of Common Prayer and Transubstantiation, but only the first part was answered.
We're not experts here on the Church of England, so I don't think we know the answer. I would suspect it was a gradual change due to the influence of Lutheranism and the other Protestant theologies rampant in Europe at the time, but I really can't say for sure. Sorry we can't be of more help.
____________________
Understanding is the reward of faith. Therefore seek not to understand that you may believe, but believe that you may understand. - Augustine
Rick Luquette
Luquette Lane
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Thomas
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| First Name: | Thomas | | Gender: | Male | | Faith History: | Catholic |
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Posted: Fri Dec 14th, 2007 01:50 pm |
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Hi Carmelina —
Your question touches on a fantastically rich and involved period of English history. I shall try and give a view without getting too involved ... or carried away!
Henry VIII was awarded the title of Fidei defensor (Defender of the Faith) by Pope Leo X in 1521 for his opposition to the Lutheran doctrine and an emerging Protestantism that would end up as the Reformation. The work Henrey penned was entitled Assertio Septem Sacramentorum (Defence of the Seven Sacraments). From it we can deduce that he believed in the idea of the Sacraments, the authority of Rome, and presumably the Transubstantiation.
When Henry died, his son Edward VII ascended the throne, a sickly child, just nine years old. The country was governed by a Regency authority, first by his uncle, the Duke of Somerset, who was later ousted by John Dudley, Duke of Northumberland.
Northumberland was a Protestant who took the faith of England far beyond Henry's idea (Henry was a Catholic who wanted a divorce). In Henry' day, after the break with Rome, there was talk of a union with the Greek Orthodox Church ... whilst others wanted to unite with the German Protestants ...
Under Northumberland, Protestant ideas, including the refutation of the transubstantiation, came to the fore. (Lutheran theology sits on the fence between the two). Attempts were made to change the Law of Accession so that neither Henry's daughters could become queen, but this failed and Edward VII was succeeded by Mary, a Catholic.
Now the Catholic aristocracy wanted to turn the tables on the Protestants, and a number of burnings for heresy took place, so many in so short a period of time that Mary (neither strong nor well advised) became known as Bloody Mary.
Mary died and Elizabeth succeeded her. The Protestants now set about undoing all that Mary had done.
Elizabeth was probably closest to her father's faith — essentially Catholic, but with the crown having autonomy over state affairs (including appointing cardinals, etc.).
But the Protestant aristocracy was having none of that! Spain was the lever with which to threaten the queen if she appeared to soften with regard to Catholics, and indeed Spain was not an empty threat, but Mary's lesson ... that the populace become uncomfortable with the execution of too many well-known and well-loved figures, made then stay their hand.
Then Rome made a fateful blunder. Pope Pius V excommunicated Elizabeth in 1570 and it was decreed that loyalty to faith came before loyalty to state. The English Protestants jumped at the opportunity, and Catholics were rounded up, not as heretics, but as traitors to the throne, conspiring with Church and Spain to overthrow the English Crown ... and the general population were quite happy to see traitors burn. Elizabeth executed far more Catholics than Mary did Protestants ...
The Fathers of Anglican theology are Thomas Cranmer (1489-1556), Matthew Parker (1504–1575) and Richard Hooker (1554–1600). The first two were both Catholics who joined the Henry's and then the Protestant cause, and served as Archbishops of Canterbury. Hooker was an Anglican parish priest ... these men, more than any king or queen, are responsible for changing doctrine, and all three tried to mediate a path between European Protestantism and English Catholicism.
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Meanwhile it is also wrong to assume the monarch acted with clear autonomy. Henry himself was under pressure from the English aristocracy - 'The Dissolution of the Monasteries', supposedly for their lax morals and bad habits, was actually a strategem to grab the huge and well-managed land-holdings of the religious orders by the emerging aristos, and Henry needed money to fight his wars, so he agreed, and saw hardly a penny!
The English aristocracy became very rich overnight, far richer than the monarch ... a situation that still prevails today (Death duties on the Royal family were axed in Queen Victoria's time so that the throne could build up some cash reserves after Q. Victoria observed that her nobility lived in greater luxury than she could afford).
Edward VII was too young to influence anything, and Mary was too melancholy and, having been brought up in isolation, was unfit and untrained in the machiavellian political skills necessary if one hoped to keep one's throne. She became an immediate victim of Parliamentary powers intent on revenging themselves upon the Protestants.
Elizabeth too, even she, had her hands full managing the nobility and Parliament, and not the least Sir Francis Walsingham, her spy chief who became increasing paranoid in a paranoid world. So little is known of what she actually thought and believed because she kept very tight lipped, walking a delicate tightrope in dealing with pressures from every quarter.
Thomas
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poshmalteser
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| Joined: | Thu Dec 13th, 2007 |
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| First Name: | carmelina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle catholic but now very ecumenically minded |
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Posted: Fri Dec 14th, 2007 06:55 pm |
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Many thanks Rick for your input into my question revolving the Engish Royal Family and the development of the Church of England when they broke away from Rome.
Carmelina Taplin
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poshmalteser
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| Joined: | Thu Dec 13th, 2007 |
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| Posts: | 5 |
| First Name: | carmelina | | Gender: | Female | | Faith History: | cradle catholic but now very ecumenically minded |
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Posted: Fri Dec 14th, 2007 06:59 pm |
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Well Thomas you have really excelled yourself when giving me a brilliant resume of the King Henry viii break from Rome and the successive reigns and edicts culminating in the formation of the Church of England. Ihave printed this out and shall certainly browse through it over and over again to see how much I can memorise. It is always useful to be armed with such knowledge when surrounded by so many anti-catholic opinions.
Many thanks once again
Carmelina Taplin
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